Is gas slowly dying?

[50+AirYears]

As far as I'm concerned, the choice of powerplant is personal choice, not subject to someone else's predjudices or preferences. So, for power, my choice depends on what I'm flying at any given moment. It may be arm power, rubber band, glow, electric, Diesel, Jetex, Rapier, Glow, Gas, towline, CO2, compressed air, compressed Black Powder rocket motors, composite rocket motors, and I might look into building some more fly powered planes in the next year or two. And if I happen to win the State Lottery, or Powerball, I might even invest in a turbine or two.
And I'll also continue to fly cl, ff, boomerang, as well as RC.
And anybody who doesn't like it, can either go see the Chaplain about getting their TS ticket punched, or join me out in the boondocks for a pleasant discussion.

[HiSpeedTrkr]

Originally Posted by road king 97

I hope you are just kidding with your spelling or is this the way you normaly spell ? You can now buy a chineeze 2 cycle motor for a 1/3 scale cub for around 300 bucks and run it all day on a gallon or two of gas . It takes to long to charge big batterys for this size plane at the field so you would need more than a couple batterys if you want to fly 3 or 4 times at the field. I like multi electrict motor planes so one or two nitro motors dont stop while flying but if its a big plane gas it the only way to go for now. It might change in years to come but its still a ways off for me.I fly all three nitro electrict and gas and dont plan on changing anytime soon.

Piky, aint u u wodnt run no chinez gas notin at tha feld wher i fly!!.....well,, not long fer sur

[E-Challenged]

This topic has been run into the ground over and over ad nauseum. Internal combustion (IC) engines are still more practical for powering really large models than electric motors for reasons of battery and support equipment costs. Electric motor flying is permitted in urban areas more than IC engine powered flying due mostly to noise complaints. Electric motors do not coat the model with oil. Gasoline engines are much cleaner running than glow engines. Modelers who once flew only IC powered models are trying electric power and many fly both types. Real airplanes have IC and jet engine sounds. Some modelers will always prefer IC power and it's sounds, even it's operational complexities, and drive to where IC flying is permitted.

[road king 97]

Originally Posted by E-Challenged

This topic has been run into the ground over and over ad nauseum. Internal combustion (IC) engines are still more practical for powering really large models than electric motors for reasons of battery and support equipment costs. Electric motor flying is permitted in urban areas more than IC engine powered flying due mostly to noise complaints. Electric motors do not coat the model with oil. Gasoline engines are much cleaner running than glow engines. Modelers who once flew only IC powered models are trying electric power and many fly both types. Real airplanes have IC and jet engine sounds. Some modelers will always prefer IC power and it's sounds, even it's operational complexities, and drive to where IC flying is permitted.

I agree with your post but here where its electrict only its hard for them to let it sink in. I will not spend all kinds of money changing over my big gas planes to electrict just to hug a tree somewhere or not to make a little noise. My club is out in a been field with no neighbors for miles away. There are die hard electrict flyers here and its just not worth arguing with them till they go out and price the giant e- motors batterys and suport stuff themselfs or they just keep flying small e stuff on a golf coarce . BTW gas motors are getting smaller for a reason.lol joe http://compare.ebay.com/like/1609424...Types&var=sbar

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by road king 97

I agree with your post but here where its electrict only its hard for them to let it sink in. I will not spend all kinds of money changing over my big gas planes to electrict just to hug a tree somewhere or not to make a little noise. My club is out in a been field with no neighbors for miles away. There are die hard electrict flyers here and its just not worth arguing with them till they go out and price the giant e- motors batterys and suport stuff themselfs or they just keep flying small e stuff on a golf coarce . BTW gas motors are getting smaller for a reason.lol joe http://compare.ebay.com/like/1609424...Types&var=sbar

Yeah
Electric power is very good, until you get into the giant scale stuff. I've done that, and costs skyrocket, what with the cost of the battery pack, the charger, and power to run the charger.

My giant scale "Big Stick" has about $1000 value in it. You could possible shave off a hundred or so by going to a gasoline engine. I've measured vibration levels in those gassers though, the results scared me.

[road king 97]

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech

Yeah
Electric power is very good, until you get into the giant scale stuff. I've done that, and costs skyrocket, what with the cost of the battery pack, the charger, and power to run the charger.

My giant scale "Big Stick" has about $1000 value in it. You could possible shave off a hundred or so by going to a gasoline engine. I've measured vibration levels in those gassers though, the results scared me.

Thats ok but if you want to fly all day with a big exspensive battery and motor your going to have to charge it off of a generator or 110 power source ,both most fields dont have. I can fly my gas 1/3 scale cub all day on a gallon of gas with some premixed 2 cycle oil mixed aready with no charging inbetween. Yea electrict are great for small planes but not giant ones yet. If and When i can charge up big batterys in a couple minutes then i might switch but it dont look like its going to happen anytime soon. Most diehard electrict flyers are flying their big planes once a day at my club field more as a novilty not as a norm. joe

[firemanbill]

Originally Posted by road king 97

Thats ok but if you want to fly all day with a big exspensive battery and motor your going to have to charge it off of a generator or 110 power source ,both most fields dont have. I can fly my gas 1/3 scale cub all day on a gallon of gas with some premixed 2 cycle oil mixed aready with no charging inbetween. Yea electrict are great for small planes but not giant ones yet. If and When i can charge up big batterys in a couple minutes then i might switch but it dont look like its going to happen anytime soon. Most diehard electrict flyers are flying their big planes once a day at my club field more as a novilty not as a norm. joe

That's me, if I want to fly a lot I leave the big ones at home. Flying my 1/4 Piper PA-12 on 8s, 27% Pitts on 12s as well as a couple others really is a pain to recharge. They typically go once or twice a day at most. The Piper more often as I have 3 sets of batteries so I can be charging as I'm flying.

I do not have any gas but am seriously considering converting my Pitts to gas or selling it. I may have flown it three times all of last years...

[road king 97]

Originally Posted by firemanbill

That's me, if I want to fly a lot I leave the big ones at home. Flying my 1/4 Piper PA-12 on 8s, 27% Pitts on 12s as well as a couple others really is a pain to recharge. They typically go once or twice a day at most. The Piper more often as I have 3 sets of batteries so I can be charging as I'm flying.

I do not have any gas but am seriously considering converting my Pitts to gas or selling it. I may have flown it three times all of last years...

Some day in the future they might figure out fast charging times but for now it sucks . Gas motors are getting cheaper and i like using them for now. Multi motor airplanes i have electrict so i dont worry about one or two stopping mid flight. My friend Merlyn has a 112 pound beech starship with two DA 85 cc motors in the rear .He ordered them to run backwards so he can use reg carbon fiber 3 bladed props. Its heavy enough with out trying to put a bunch of batterys in it to fly that much weight. joe

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by road king 97

Thats ok but if you want to fly all day with a big exspensive battery and motor your going to have to charge it off of a generator or 110 power source ,both most fields dont have. I can fly my gas 1/3 scale cub all day on a gallon of gas with some premixed 2 cycle oil mixed aready with no charging inbetween. Yea electrict are great for small planes but not giant ones yet. If and When i can charge up big batterys in a couple minutes then i might switch but it dont look like its going to happen anytime soon. Most diehard electrict flyers are flying their big planes once a day at my club field more as a novilty not as a norm. joe

Yeah
That's why I've gone to those A123 batteries that can be charged in 15 minutes repeatedly for years. And as you indicate, you need a power supply for the charger. Which is why I built this thing.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66066

The engine/alternator has a charge cycle counter on it. The counter now shows 231 charge cycles on it since April 2012. It gets about 8 flights to a tank of gasoline )

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by road king 97

Some day in the future they might figure out fast charging times but for now it sucks . Gas motors are getting cheaper and i like using them for now. Multi motor airplanes i have electrict so i dont worry about one or two stopping mid flight. My friend Merlyn has a 112 pound beech starship with two DA 85 cc motors in the rear .He ordered them to run backwards so he can use reg carbon fiber 3 bladed props. Its heavy enough with out trying to put a bunch of batterys in it to fly that much weight. joe

One of my club members asked me for advice on putting electric power into his Tiger Cat F7F scale twin military model. After running the numbers, told him to forget it.

With electric power, wing loading was some 32 pounds, or 72 ounces per square foot, with less than 900 square inches to work with.

That model will look very nice, but with a stalling speed on the order of 35-40 MPH, will not be very fun to fly.

[road king 97]

Ha Ha if im going to have to listen to a gas motor running it might as well be straped to the front of my plane. lmao joe

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by road king 97

Ha Ha if im going to have to listen to a gas motor running it might as well be straped to the front of my plane. lmao joe

LOL
Guys in my club have asked if I'm ever going to go to gas power. Guess this is a close as it's going to get! At any rate, those $99 Harbor Freight 6 HP gas engines do have a very good muffler on them, and its quieter than those big gassers while they are flying.

[dgholmes59]

Originally Posted by E-Challenged

This topic has been run into the ground over and over ad nauseum. Internal combustion (IC) engines are still more practical for powering really large models than electric motors for reasons of battery and support equipment costs. Electric motor flying is permitted in urban areas more than IC engine powered flying due mostly to noise complaints. Electric motors do not coat the model with oil. Gasoline engines are much cleaner running than glow engines. Modelers who once flew only IC powered models are trying electric power and many fly both types. Real airplanes have IC and jet engine sounds. Some modelers will always prefer IC power and it's sounds, even it's operational complexities, and drive to where IC flying is permitted.

All have there advantages and disadvantages. I can't fly my 55cc Extra and Cap in the city park, but I can fly my little electrics. My big planes take less support equipment than the electrics. The big birds fly a lot longer at a higher throttle on a tank of gas than my electrics on a single charge. I love flying my big birds and I love flying my electrics. And I am sure we can all agree, gasoline powered big birds are the best! Right?! Just kidding. Don't hit me with a battery.

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by dgholmes59

And I am sure we can all agree, gasoline powered big birds are the best! Right?! Just kidding. Don't hit me with a battery.

Last fall I did vibration level test on a club members 150 cc twin gasser. That model had over 25 g's vibration at the aileron servo location while that twin cylinder engine was idling. Ouch!!!

(Would that be a soft shell LiPo, or a Hard case A123???)

[dahawk]

From what I see at our field, gassers are not dying at all. If anything, Nitro may be dying because of the cost of the fuel and the slimy mess. Seeing alot of guys convert from nitro to gas lately. The larger, heavy duty high performing airplanes are a much better fit for gas IMO. Plus the nice flight times. When you start getting over 6S lipos, it gets exponentially expensive on the electric side plus these babies are heavy.

I'm happy to stay in the 3S-4Smax range with my squadron. Plenty of oomph for me. 5-6 mins a crack provides the fix I need. I will need to go to a 5-6S and a 80 amp esc with the Yak-54 fiberglass fuse 6 pounder I have yet to complete.

What I do see alot are guys spending far more time putzing and tuning their engines than flying. Nothing more annoying than running up the gas engines near the hangar. So, while they do get 15 minutes of flight time, I've taken off and landed twice.

My 2 cents...

-Hawk

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by dahawk

I'm happy to stay in the 3S-4Smax range with my squadron. Plenty of oomph for me. 5-6 mins a crack provides the fix I need. I will need to go to a 5-6S and a 80 amp esc with the Yak-54 fiberglass fuse 6 pounder I have yet to complete.


-Hawk

IMHO, when you are working with an "Intermediate" electric power conversion, it gets important to use quality materials. In these types of models, those $19 electric motors might leave a bit to be desired.

I've been an admitted Hacker nut over the past 6 years now. These motors are perhaps 20% more expensive than a similar quality type motor. But you can run these motors at their rated specs without frying anything.

I've been running my various Hacker A50-12S motors with a 16X8 APC-E (also used a 15X10) and a 6S2P A123 battery pack now for several years.

That A50 motor turns the 16X8 prop at 7500 RPM on the ground, unloading to 8200 RPM in the air. Its pulling 1150 Watts, and 68 Amps. This is a very good size power system for an 8 pound model with about 700-800 square inch wing.

Hangar 9 Kantana Model
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68844

Thread on 70 size glow engine conversion to electric
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45222

Hacker 6S2P A123 powered Models
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44686

[firemanbill]

I agree Dennis! The Hacker motor in my Pitts is a beast, for a beast!

I like Scorpion motors too, I have had real good results with them. The fit and finish are as good as Hacker. I'm no electrical engineer so can't speak to their effectiveness but I do know I like the results.

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by firemanbill

I agree Dennis! The Hacker motor in my Pitts is a beast, for a beast!

I like Scorpion motors too, I have had real good results with them. The fit and finish are as good as Hacker. I'm no electrical engineer so can't speak to their effectiveness but I do know I like the results.

Yeah, you should see my two A60 Hackers, an A60-16M and an A60-5S. Both turn a 19X12 prop with authority on 16 pound models.

[firemanbill]

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech

Yeah, you should see my two A60 Hackers, an A60-16M and an A60-5S. Both turn a 19X12 prop with authority on 16 pound models.

I would like to see that!

[road king 97]

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech

Yeah, you should see my two A60 Hackers, an A60-16M and an A60-5S. Both turn a 19X12 prop with authority on 16 pound models.

16 lb
plane and 200 pounds for gas motor and hardware to charge it . Your to funny . lol You can fly big planes but you have to build them light. My 99 inch solent is heavy at 8 lb with the batterys and it flys great. Check out Ivans weights on his planes and his wingloadings .He was flying these with c size batterys at the time he drew his plans. http://www.ivansplans.com/ This is the only way to build big planes and fly them with electrict motors . joe

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by road king 97

16 lb
plane and 200 pounds for gas motor and hardware to charge it . Your to funny . lol You can fly big planes but you have to build them light. My 99 inch solent is heavy at 8 lb with the batterys and it flys great. Check out Ivans weights on his planes and his wingloadings .He was flying these with c size batterys at the time he drew his plans. http://www.ivansplans.com/ This is the only way to build big planes and fly them with electrict motors . joe

Nope!!!!

When you get to these larger electric motors, just one 120 Ampere Hour deep cycle 75 pound battery doesn't cut it. It's been my experience that because of the high rate of discharge out of those lead acid batteries, they are only good for two or at most three flights a day. So, that takes two 120 Ampere hour batteries, or 150 pounds worth.

That Harbor Freight engine/alternator combination weighs in at about 60 pounds total. Much much easier to carry. And,like those gasser models, you can fly until you run out of gasoline. With a 15 or 20 minute recharge time on the 12S2P A123 battery pack, you can get two or three flights in one hour with it.

When that motor up front is putting out 2500 or 3000 watts, the weight of the model just doesn't matter to much. My Hacker A60-16M motor pulls that 16 pound, 82 inch wingspan Giant Big Stick model straight up out of sight. Same with the Hacker A60-5S motor in a 82 inch Cessna. This model takes off on a very unscale like 15 feet, and can climb out again at a very unscale like 70 degrees, and keep going.

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by firemanbill

I would like to see that!

Here you go
Great Planes Giant Big Stick Electric Conversion
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65052

Giant Scale Cessna Model
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66414

The Giant Big Stick thread has a video of it flying in post #18.

DennyV

[Reindeer]

Originally Posted by dahawk

From what I see at our field, gassers are not dying at all. If anything, Nitro may be dying because of the cost of the fuel and the slimy mess. Seeing alot of guys convert from nitro to gas lately. The larger, heavy duty high performing airplanes are a much better fit for gas IMO. Plus the nice flight times. When you start getting over 6S lipos, it gets exponentially expensive on the electric side plus these babies are heavy.

I'm happy to stay in the 3S-4Smax range with my squadron. Plenty of oomph for me. 5-6 mins a crack provides the fix I need. I will need to go to a 5-6S and a 80 amp esc with the Yak-54 fiberglass fuse 6 pounder I have yet to complete.

What I do see alot are guys spending far more time putzing and tuning their engines than flying. Nothing more annoying than running up the gas engines near the hangar. So, while they do get 15 minutes of flight time, I've taken off and landed twice.

My 2 cents...

-Hawk

Seems to me often enough that when people refer to gas, they are lumping nitro into the same category. I don't see gassers going away anytime soon, but definitely share your sentiments re: nitro fuels.

Another factor too is what is being flown. As a heli pilot, I've come to the opinion that electric power really is the way to go except for the really large birds. Yes nitro does have a following there, but for me it just isn't worth the hassle, not to mention that that another flyer got us kicked off a couple of places because his nitro birds were burning holes in the lawn. Some models such as motorized sailplanes, quadrocopters, and ducted fans just don't work nearly as well (if at all in some cases) running on fuel.

But, like the others have said, ultimately it does come down to personal preference and desired outcome.

[cyclops2]

2 old guys are happy talking, sitting & drinking with a open Diesel fuel container upwind of them.

[road king 97]

Originally Posted by cyclops2

2 old guys are happy talking, sitting & drinking with a open Diesel fuel container upwind of them.

It sure beats the smell of a fried esc /wires or battery on fire. joe