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Hi-Performance and Sailplanes RC hotliners, electric pylon racers, F5B, F5D, sailplanes and gliders

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Old 05-11-2012, 09:22 PM   #26
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Ed,
Aren't computers fun? If only I had a dollar for every time that's happened to me...
I can guess how you felt about that!

As far as the speed record I am fairly sure this one isn't going to get close to that type of performance. What it will do is give me some data to work with and that's all I am hoping for. This plane has been built by a few guys that really know what they are doing with glow engines. One equipped with a piped Nelson FAI engine, with a venturi setup rather than a carburetor, managed a bit better than 200 mph. And several with other hi power glow setups have done pretty close. Given I know roughly what type of horsepower they were dealing I can get an rough idea if all the effort I have put into this one accomplished anything.
Ed if you have any advice please don't hesitate to mention it, I've built a few airplanes in my day. Some of them were pretty quick for the old days, but I'd be the first to admit that this is a bit beyond anything I have tried before. I am just having fun experimenting and trying out a few ideas I came up with.
Thanks again!
Since I have the wife's "to do" list finished up and she out I am going to try to get some work done on the build. So far I am 0 for 3 in my most recent attempts to try and get something done on it.

That wasn't a crash, it was just a "hard landing".
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:09 PM   #27
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You put all that effort into build the perfect plane for FAST flying and spend a wad of money and then some guy comes along with a slope glider and does 468mph and beats the daylights out of you. Makes you feel great doesn't it

Sounds about right on the attempt to work on it goes. Been there done that.

I think if you really want to go fast, that airfoil has to go that you are using now. Something of a simi sym airfoil and a lot thinner would probably work for straight line speed and upright flight. It looks pretty thick now and every speed plane I have ever seen has really thin wings. One little speed plane they brought to SEFF was a conventional style plane, but very thin wings and went about 150mph. Don't know what he had for power, but it was quite. Not like the screamers they were using for delta's and such. I'm sure he could see it, but I kept loosing it. It was painted green of all colors and was hard to see close up. At a distance it just disappeared for me.

This one should make a great test bed and you should learn a lot out of it. When ever I build something like this, I normally wind up building about 3 or 4 before I get what I want. I was using my K&B 40 racing engine then and got it to about 150mph. For me at that time it was HOT. Scared the heck out of the guy I was flying with. He ran behind a tree and wouldn't come out until I landed. Kept me on my toes though. It started out as a quicky 500 racer and got lost somewhere along the second build. Good luck with yours.

Ed
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Old 05-12-2012, 03:54 PM   #28
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Yea but can that glorified glider do that straight and level? lol just kidding.
Thanks Ed,
Very good points.
On this plane the airfoil is a S2006 (fully symmetrical) at the wing root adjacent to the modified center it is 1.5 inches thick at that point the cord is about 25 inches long, the wing then tapers to just over 1/4 inch thick with a cord of 9 inches at the swept tip with a span of 32 inches. With the picture I posted it hard to get an idea of the scale of the plane.
The center section (fuselage) containing the battery is 2 inches thick, 2 1/2 inches wide, and that is blended into the wing root.

The Stingray you saw in the video is a 43 inch span with the wing 3/8" thick from the root to tips essentially nothing more than a flat plate.

Now time to actually get something done on this one...

That wasn't a crash, it was just a "hard landing".
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Old 05-12-2012, 06:46 PM   #29
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I watched the video of the guy making that flight and it was incredible. Mostly you just saw a blur as the glider went by. The guy calling the speeds was pretty funny too. His voice kept getting higher as the speeds went up.

I don't think I would go so far as to make it a flat plate, but a lifting airfoil would be good. I think to speed things up I would use a foam core with plywood and fiberglass covering. That should make it pretty stiff and still give you the lift you need to fly it. Just a thought. I just like making foam wings since they are so fast to make. I built a lot of foam core wings back in the 70's simply because they were so easy to make. That and I hate building wings. I can work on a fuselage forever and not get bored, but wings I hate.

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Old 05-13-2012, 04:12 PM   #30
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I saw that video it was pretty wild, looked like they were having some fun.
Why I had mentioned the flat plate is that is exactly what I had done with the stingray. It wasn't all that fast to build by any means but gave me a lot of information on how that planeform will handle. The primary goal was to builda 3/8 thick wing of wood that would get past the 130 mark that the first prototype came apart at. We should get together I'm not in love with building fuselages.
Here is a shot of the construction of the stingray.


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Old 05-13-2012, 04:14 PM   #31
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I finally got the elevon torque rod bushings and rods themselves installed. After a bit of fiddling around with the fitting and using a laser to line up everything the elevon root blending is now part of the airframe. The inner bushings are enclosed within the elevon root blends and when the cooling duct and body blending are finished I have no fear of them departing the airframe. The outer torque rod bushing still need to be bound more permanently to the airframe but for now they have epoxy holding them in place end I deal with them later. Everything looks like it came out pretty straight and true, and it nice to see how it looks without all the tape holding everything together!
Next up is to finish fabricating the control linkage and hooking everything up to the servos. After I get that done I can finish up the cooling duct and finish blending the body to the wing.
A couple of pictures to show the root blends with the elevons taped in place.


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Old 05-13-2012, 10:09 PM   #32
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Boy, that one really was a flat plate wasn't it. This one is started to really look good. I can't wait until you get the tail on and blended and see how it will look altogether. It shouldn't be long now. A little bit of sanding and shaping and it should all come together. Looking great. Have you ever tried one of the hidden torque rods where it comes off the servo straight to the surface?

Ed
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Old 05-14-2012, 02:02 AM   #33
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Thanks.
If your talking about the torque rod setups used in high end sailplanes, I have only seen adds for them. Are they the ones that are a rod with a hooked end? The hooked end fits into a notched piece mounted in the control surface, and when the rod is twisted the bent portion deflects the surface? I have never seen a plane with them, I am curious about them though. They look as if they could be limiting as far as servo placement. That is only a guess on my part as I've yet to see the setup sitting in front of me.

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Old 05-15-2012, 03:21 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
Thanks.
If your talking about the torque rod setups used in high end sailplanes, I have only seen adds for them. Are they the ones that are a rod with a hooked end? The hooked end fits into a notched piece mounted in the control surface, and when the rod is twisted the bent portion deflects the surface? I have never seen a plane with them, I am curious about them though. They look as if they could be limiting as far as servo placement. That is only a guess on my part as I've yet to see the setup sitting in front of me.
Yep, that's the one. You are a little limited in placement, because you have to have your servo angled at 45 degs to the surface, but it's not totally bad. You can still put your servo in a good location and run the pushrod to the control surface. You can also use plywood inserted into the surface instead of buying that plastic thing. I haven't tried it in any high performance planes, but I don't see why it won't work.

Ed
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Old 05-15-2012, 05:17 PM   #35
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I do intend to try that type of setup at some point as I said it looks interesting. Right now I am shaping the aluminum spacers for the torque rod ends with a file, and a ready made solution looks pretty appealing. I have never built anything this complicated out of metal that wasn't preformed parts and it's an experience to say the least. I got three of the four spacers made up and will be moving on to the threaded ends that will connect the push rods to the torque rods. With all of the advances in the past few years in robotics I find it interesting that we don't have more options for hardware and servo setups in RC.

That wasn't a crash, it was just a "hard landing".
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Old 05-16-2012, 01:06 AM   #36
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Some really nice things have gone by the way side over the years and I think most of it is because ARF's took over. I would love to get some hornipoints again, but they don't sell them anymore. That's a hing point with a control horn built into it. I do use the hing points though and find them much better then most hinges on the market now days. They also had a nice aileron slot fairing that I started using that I really liked.

I think you can pretty much forget about new stuff coming out since they went to ARF's and VERY few builders. Most of the kits are gone and that really gripes me too. There are a couple that I would dearly love to get my hands on again.Kits are slowly but surly going by the way side too. While there are still people building, if we don't start getting new people involved in building we are going to loose them too. I grew up building as that was the only way to get a plane of any kind flying, but now days, there are people that have no idea what is inside that covering and can't do simple things that we take for granted. I couldn't believe what was under that covering myself until I had to repair a wing. Talk about shoddy workmenship, man that thing is an accident looking for a place to happen.

As for bringing out new parts for builders, dream on. With the trend to more ARF's, you can forget about anything interesting coming out unless it is a cheaper way to build one of them. The remaining builders are just now worth the effort and cost to bring things to market anymore.

Ed
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Old 05-16-2012, 04:28 PM   #37
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I also started in the hobby long before the advent of arfs, and build because I am not all that impressed with their quality. Not to say that they are all junk, but most do not have a lot going for them.
At my club it seems that we have been bucking the trend towards arfs I small bit and I hope it continues. We have a few builders in our club and you see airplanes that you don't see otherwise because of it. It only took one arf I had gotten for my wife that was a total waste of money to make me swear off of arfs for good. I tried for several weeks to make it fly right never to get it to the point I would let her fly it, and ended up building a trainer for her to fly. The arf went on top of a brush pile where it should have been from the start.
I guess one of the guys in my club has the right idea, he building a four axis CNC mill to make up the parts he needs.
Oh well back to the razor saw,files and drills for me; I have the four spacers for the linkage that I needed made up, and now it on to the linkage end couplings.

That wasn't a crash, it was just a "hard landing".
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Old 05-16-2012, 09:34 PM   #38
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Well, I seem to be the only one in my club that builds and have been ask a couple of times to build a plane for someone, but they don't seem to like my price. I am not about to start building for someone else and not charge them what I feel my times is worth. We even have one guy that not only buys ARF's, but pays someone to put it together for him. Now that is lazy.

I do enjoy building as long as I can go at my pace and I think half the fun of this hobby is building. I have a couple of ARF's and they both fly great. One being the Senior Telemaster and it flies just like a Telemaster always has. Got it on sale for $125.00 and have been playing with it for about 5 years now. Guess it will survive another 5 years.

I found a flying wing on another site that is pretty cool and have been thinking of building it. It has I beams instead of ribs and lattice work over the top of that and then covered with Monokote. Looks pretty cool really. It's not a fast one and not meant to be, but it does fly nice. You can take a look at it here; http://www.airfieldmodels.com/gallery_of_models/rc/thwing!/index.htm

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Old 05-17-2012, 03:10 AM   #39
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I think for the most part I am going to stick with building planes from this point onward. There isn't a lot of Arf's that I find that interesting anyhow.

Paul's Thwing is one of the neatest airframes I have ever seen. Talk about a master builder! His website is one of the best out there if someone wants some great advice or a reference, I have read through it many times over the years. It's a really neat airplane but I think I'd try winglets with drag rudders rather than the single fin. (If you read his thread he discovered some issues with the rudder.) I am very doubtful that it is possible to build one much lighter than the way that one is built, it's a very interesting structure. I'd like to try it with a bit more wingspan (about the size of a BTE Vortex) using the same technique for the structure. I'd like to try doing it with some clam-shell drag rudders and an inline twin type of arrangement with a tractor prop and a DF for vectored thrust. I have tried the inline twin with a tractor up font and a DF vectored thrust on the rear of a conventional stick and tube, and think it would have a real interesting effect on a delta type of aircraft (interesting envelope). I do have a design for a STOL type of aircraft I have been working on for a few years that is powered with that type of power system given some of the electronics available it would be nice to go with out any vertical stab at all. Like I said I don't see me flying a lot of arfs in the near future.

For some one who doesn't like to build wings you picked an interesting airplane to build.

That wasn't a crash, it was just a "hard landing".
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:52 AM   #40
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Yea, it is interesting. That's why I am really tempted to build one. It is nothing like building a normal wing and I was thinking of something like about a 600 sq inch wing on it. I am more into playing around and pattern type flying then speed. That will be a little down the road though. I still have two more pattern planes to build first. A Mach 1 and a Mach 8 and then I'll think about my next plane. I always have something lined up and normally 2 or 3, but I also take my sweet time in building them, so I am not going to be overflowing with planes any times soon. I have to finish my Aeromaster before I even start on either of these though.

I guess there are a couple of ARF's that I would like to have, but that is mostly because I just don't have the time to build all of them I want. I would love to have a WACO bipe and a P-6E, but I more then likely will let them go and instead build my other planes. They keep me pretty busy doing that.

Ed
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Old 01-12-2013, 03:39 AM   #41
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Time to post an update.

I had to dump the original design for the torque rod horns I just don;t have the machining expertise to do something that was this small with the degree of precision needed to prevent Ackerman. The proposed horns would have looked like the example in the first photo. Oh well.

So I decided to go with a pull pull type of setup that the pieces I needed to fabricate I could actually make. It would have been nice to do a full blown push pull setup using CF push-rods but what I used instead is Sullivan gold cable in a pull pull configuration with brass horns solder to tubes the mounted to the torque rods. The second photo shows the torque rod control horns. Now for the first time in ages I could actually proceed with the build now that the elevon linkage is setup.
The next photo shows the bottom side of the duct planked and the rear of the cooling duct. It also shows the cooling duct support for the exit nozzle as well as functioning as a former to tie the trailing edge back together. The last photo shows the cooling duct fully enclosed now on to the nozzle and the last part of the blending of the rear of the fuselage into the wing itself.


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Old 01-12-2013, 03:43 AM   #42
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Even just having starting blending in the cooling duct, that "hunk of lumber" hanging off the back of the airframe is starting to fade away.


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Old 01-15-2013, 09:41 PM   #43
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I got the rough blending on the belly done so now it's time to fabricate the wingletts (the last of the actual construction) so I can move on to the finish work.


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Old 01-21-2013, 06:17 PM   #44
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I modified the fin structure a bit to use 1/32nd sheathing rather than the 1/16th to reduce the frontal area of the fins a bit more. The additional framing and the fact that the sheathing will also be further strengthened by the composite skin should allow the 1/32 balsa sheathing to serve for this application. Right now the airframe weighs in at 1 lb 3 oz as long as I can keep the weight of the finish down to a minimum the target weight should not be a problem.


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Old 01-23-2013, 11:51 PM   #45
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Got some shaping done to the wingtip turning the fins into winglets.


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Old 01-24-2013, 08:32 PM   #46
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some more sanding


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Old 01-24-2013, 08:46 PM   #47
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Thats looking nice if you have any stability issues with the plane, you might need to add to the wing tips 1" below the wing also, that helps a lot on flying wings to make them track straight, Take care and have fun, Chellie

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Old 01-25-2013, 02:15 AM   #48
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Thanks for your kind word Chellie it getting there, it still need a lot of sanding at this point, but at least the construction part is finished. I want to get the winglets and tips shaped so I can apply the carbon fiber veil on them before I break one of the winglets. For some reason they always keep snagging on something.
Thanks for the tip regarding what I can do if stability is an issue. I may have to address that as I downsized the fins from the original plans. Hopefully having moved them more aft because of the swept wingtips I added will compensate for that,

That wasn't a crash, it was just a "hard landing".
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:20 PM   #49
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I never included a front view of how the fins look.


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Old 01-26-2013, 01:39 AM   #50
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very cool looking wing!!looks like art work thats going to fly fast. what will the finale covering be? paint,fiberglass....something else? me...i think i'd just stain it and apply a clear coat.just kidding.

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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