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Electric Ducted Fan Jets Discuss electric ducted fan jets here including setup tips, power systems, flying techniques, etc.

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Old 01-30-2013, 03:49 AM   #1
pattern14
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Default some second thoughts on the Durafly vampire

No point in going over the construction or previous design merits of this plane, as it has been extensively covered both here and on RCG's. As my first Durafly model, it ranked very similar in quality to the other RTF foamies from China, although I bought it as a bare airframe only. Cost of freight was the same as the whole kit The parts fitment was reasonable, the foam easily crushed/marked if not carefull, and, and the supplied hardware in the same flimsy league as Starmax etc. Apart from that, it assembled well, and is a nice looking plane. I always use tape to assemble these fragile foamies, as it makes repairs so much easier, so there is not a drop of glue anywhere on this one, and almost no flex to speak of. Two strips of CF ribbon down the booms ( slits cut in and then taped over flush with the surface) and bi-directional tape on all the crucial joins. A coreflute former to seperate the custom cut out battery box, after removing the velcro board set up, as well as junking the undercarriage. Quite a weight saving all up. ESC in the air intake to stay cool, and belly reinforced with packing tape. I'm not a fan of twin booms, as they tend to break rather easy (had 4 of them so far), but this one is easily the best. With the COG somewhat forward of the suggested manual, she flew very nicely; responsive, stable enough, and with a truly excellent glide. All in all, a good value for money EDF. My youngest son claimed it straight away, and already hangs on the wall next to his Spitfire....maybe he'll let me fly it occasionally
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:34 AM   #2
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It may sound a bit ungrateful, but when a person modifies a kit or arf and posts as a review - I tend to switch of.

I know I'm guilty of it to a degree, but reviews in my mind should keep to as close to design as possible, that includes how it's joined. I accept that no-one in their right mind uses the junk glue supplied with chinese kits - in fact as canopy glue many of them work quite well !

I cannot think of anyone I know who doesn't use glue to join their models ... the thought of a 70mm EDF Vampire held together by tape ... but if it works and is secure then OK ...

I'd be interested to know technique and what tapes used, what widths, strengths etc. I think others may also be interested.

I have to admit that I don't even like to use tape to bind together a break at the field to fly again, other than maybe a broken canopy hold down ..

Nigel

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Old 01-30-2013, 07:19 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
It may sound a bit ungrateful, but when a person modifies a kit or arf and posts as a review - I tend to switch of.

I know I'm guilty of it to a degree, but reviews in my mind should keep to as close to design as possible, that includes how it's joined. I accept that no-one in their right mind uses the junk glue supplied with chinese kits - in fact as canopy glue many of them work quite well !

I cannot think of anyone I know who doesn't use glue to join their models ... the thought of a 70mm EDF Vampire held together by tape ... but if it works and is secure then OK ...

I'd be interested to know technique and what tapes used, what widths, strengths etc. I think others may also be interested.

I have to admit that I don't even like to use tape to bind together a break at the field to fly again, other than maybe a broken canopy hold down ..

Nigel
With all due respect I couldn't disagree more!
When somebody modifies a kit and takes the time and the trouble to tell us how he's done it, it is the only time that I sit up and pay attention.
I'd far rather hear how somebody did something differently than look at hundreds of how I put together my ARTF as everyone else does reviews!
Especially so when it's somebody like Michael who has a wealth of experience in flying electric foamies in extreme conditions.
Just my 2 pence worth, for what it's worth.

Barry
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:57 AM   #4
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Hi Baz ...

Not often we disagree !! In fact I don't disagree with you, but tend to see a review as that. A review of what is designed.

You know I'm one for unconventional approaches to many aspects of modelling, and I don't think I've built any model true to design yet.

Once a reviewer strays from the design build - then it takes on another avenue. The reader may have his own way that is not same ... but now the review is of away from design.

The OP here - I have great respect for as well ... I suppose the real issue for me is when someone takes a model and then starts putting own motors / gear in that model was clearly not designed for.... and it's not unusual for maidens / later part of review to have trouble.

I always remember chatting to Phil Ramsay about the RCM&E review of his Mini Pitts. I had one and it was one of the best on the market. The Reviewer didn't like Phils set-up and modified the build. The same review was a Head to Head with the Pilot kit of similar size. The result was Phils Mini Pitts crashed and was seriously downmarked by reviewer and the Pilot Kit scored Gold.
It was months later that the reviewer admitted his mistake and built as Phil designed - it flew perfect. But of course it was too late and verdict was already out months earlier.

What I'm illustrating is that a negative maiden result is as importanty as a positive. If built as spec'd ... it's a good chance the reason can be given and readers avoid the pitfall. Modify the build and what now ? Like me and Parkjets ... I could always blame the PKJ - but in reality it's me who's the error in the modifications I do.

Anyway .. I'm stuck in Singapore ... jobs p*****g me of ! Wife's ill ..... I'm far from my models ! still another 3 - 4 days before I can think about going home ...

Cheers
Nigel

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Old 01-30-2013, 08:33 AM   #5
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"I always remember chatting to Phil Ramsay about the RCM&E review of his Mini Pitts. I had one and it was one of the best on the market. The Reviewer didn't like Phils set-up and modified the build. The same review was a Head to Head with the Pilot kit of similar size. The result was Phils Mini Pitts crashed and was seriously downmarked by reviewer and the Pilot Kit scored Gold.
It was months later that the reviewer admitted his mistake and built as Phil designed - it flew perfect. But of course it was too late and verdict was already out months earlier."

Now I think I see where you are coming from Nigel.
I too agree that when " a reviewer" has been provided with a kit by a supplier for the express purposes of providing an " independent" magazine review then they should stick rigidly to the specs of the kit during the build so as to be able to give a fair comparison.

On the bright side at least it's warm in Singers!!

Barry.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:22 AM   #6
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Not only that .. but when modifications or straying from design - many are personal ideas and may be unnecessary. They can hide a design fault or bring in others that a newcomer would miss.

But I admit I overstepped the mark as I compared a 'magazine' review situation with a forum personal review ..

The silly bit is that mag reviews are usually carried out by modellers NOT employed staff of the publication ... they were guys 'on call' to build and fly ... I know of one guy personally who did it for one of the Brit mags ... his payment was to keep the model !! You'd think he was given everything to complete ... motor, fuel etc. ? Nope ! Only the kit was supplied. Everything else came from his spares box ...

Funny enough - I beat him at the Southern Area Scale Championship one year !!

Cheers
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Old 01-31-2013, 12:00 AM   #7
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Default you missed the important bit....

Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
It may sound a bit ungrateful, but when a person modifies a kit or arf and posts as a review - I tend to switch of.

I know I'm guilty of it to a degree, but reviews in my mind should keep to as close to design as possible, that includes how it's joined. I accept that no-one in their right mind uses the junk glue supplied with chinese kits - in fact as canopy glue many of them work quite well !

I cannot think of anyone I know who doesn't use glue to join their models ... the thought of a 70mm EDF Vampire held together by tape ... but if it works and is secure then OK ...

I'd be interested to know technique and what tapes used, what widths, strengths etc. I think others may also be interested.

I have to admit that I don't even like to use tape to bind together a break at the field to fly again, other than maybe a broken canopy hold down ..

Nigel
The bottom line was that my youngest son claimed it as soon as he flew it; everything else pales after that. Still, I'll regain my composure........great to see the opinions flying about (pardon the pun). The use of tape goes back some years, when I first got into direct strike combat and the use of EPP, packing tape, and coreflute (coroplast in the US). My one and only exception was the the delusional moment I put my EPO pz stryker up against one of the EPP combat planes. One hit and the stryker disintegrated. Humurous because it was its' 3rd flight, with it breaking the motor mount on its' maiden, stripping a servo on it's 2nd, and good riddance on the 3rd. And after all the glowing reports on Wattflyer too. Still, it kept me away from ARF's for a few years, which didn't hurt.

The use of packing tape on EPP is about the only way to go, with very little in the way of alternatives (which I'm sure must exist). The chemical composition of EPP resists practically all adhesives to apply tape with, with 3m 77 being the most commonly used. There are a couple of other multi purpose sprays about, but the 3m product is easist for me to get hold of. The combination of packing tape applied over EPP foam gives incredible strength, particularly when triangulated over maximum stress areas. My scratchbuilt combat and Luft 46 jets are testimony to how much of a hammering they can take It is an aquired skill, and I've made my share of botches initially, but absolutely nothing compares to when durability is an issue. Only my mother-in-laws' hide is more resilient

When the opportunity arose to purchase a number of bare frame foamies at ridiculously low prices about 18 months ago, I grabbed about 6 of them, all from different manufacturers. My flying conditions are a little rugged at best, and everything has to be handlaunched . The Starmax He 162 was initially glued together, using top quality foam glue from the now defunct LHS. Every landing broke or damaged something, like wise the Guanli Harrier. The belly landings literally ripping chunks out, and even the grass stalks taking bites out of leading edges. So........hours of painstakingly applying clear packing tape over the whole Harrier, with Bi-directional tape over the leading edges, nose, and belly. No special adhesive is needed on foams apart from EPP, as the rest of the foam products will retain generic tape quite well. Bi-directional tape is fibreglass reinforced heavy duty strapping tape in 25 or 50mm rolls, so it may be known as something else in other parts of the world. The difference being was that the He 162 was glued together, and broke very easily, tearing away the glued sections with it. The Harrier was totally taped together, then covered in clear packing tape (the whole job was a PITA because of the Harriers' compound curves etc.) The Harrier still flies, even after some very rough "landings" and dunking in the dam, swiping trees etc. The glued Heinkel became unflyable in very short time..

Since then, I have totally covered my EPO,EPS, Z- foam etc egg shell foamies in clear tape, then attatched the components, wings, etc with Bi directional tape, which is in turn covered with another layer of clear tape. They all still look good, fly very well, and have some "give" instead of going CRUNCH. The Vampire is the latest, and the wings and booms are held in place with the same method-10mm strips criss crossed in a triangular fashion to provide maximum strength from one component to another. Strips along each leading edge, all servos cut very carefully for an interference fit into the recessess, then taped over to hold them in place. In the event of a spectacular nose in, the various sections are simply pulled out as the tape breaks adhesion, and eveything damaged is still in on piece, to be pulled back into shape with boiling water ( no lost bits) The boiling water also releases the adhesive bond, which simplifies clean up.

Well, I hope that clears things up. part of being a free country, is that we can agree or disagree as much as we like, and no-one gets dragged outside and shot Cheers
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Old 01-31-2013, 11:12 AM   #8
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Magic ..

I knew that you were not some newcomer to the hobby so expected a good reply ... and I got that.

I have to admit that glued foamies - yes they end up very quickly as though rats have been nibbling at them !! Sometimes like Grizzly Bears have had a go !! My Red 50mm T45 looks like a buzz-saw has been running round it !

I don't remember traditional balsa jobs looking like it so quick !

I started adding tape round leading edges a while ago and glad I did ...

Vampire .. I keep looking at it - but foam booms ? I can see them not lasting my flying at all !!

Cheers
Nigel

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Old 02-01-2013, 09:30 AM   #9
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Default everyone needs a bat in their belfrey.......

Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Magic ..

I knew that you were not some newcomer to the hobby so expected a good reply ... and I got that.

I have to admit that glued foamies - yes they end up very quickly as though rats have been nibbling at them !! Sometimes like Grizzly Bears have had a go !! My Red 50mm T45 looks like a buzz-saw has been running round it !

I don't remember traditional balsa jobs looking like it so quick !

I started adding tape round leading edges a while ago and glad I did ...

Vampire .. I keep looking at it - but foam booms ? I can see them not lasting my flying at all !!

Cheers
Nigel
No problems at all Nigel, It's great having differing points of view on theses things. Some threads get so heated over obscure opinions on what and what not to do, it gets really uncomfortable. You'd think they were arguing the merits of being in Afghanistan rather than model aeroplanes. And yes, foam does get beaten up rather quick, but someone will always offer a solution somewhere. Barry has had great success with his silk and varnish method, and put me onto heat shrinking plastic bottles for noses and engine cowls. Of course, not crashing helps.....As for the Vampire, it is a very well behaved EDF with no bad habits, and one of the best glides of any scale plane I have flown. Run a couple of strips of CF down those booms, and she will be as robust as any other foamie out there. With your building prowess, you could probably make a more durable set if needed, and besides, they are available quite cheaply as spares from HK. At just over $50.00AUD for the bare kit (including EDF unit), they are great value for money. Pity the freight is such daylight robbery. My 13 y.o. son and I have been flying the pants off it for the last week since we put it together, and it is a ton of fun. Mock combat coming up with the Me 262 very soon....cheers....
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:04 AM   #10
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I'm not allowed to mention what I had to do ref Afghanistan ! but that's another issue !

mmmm with all the other projects I have ... find replacement for discon Parkjet, rebuild my 4 that crashed before flying out to Singa's .. carry on with the Lancaster ... complete the rebuild of the Twister ... re-engine the F16 ... and that's just of the top of head !! Loads more I just can't remember offhand.

But the Vampire ... I do like it ... well all the D'H V series in fact !!

My biggest problem is weight and lack of materials available in Latvia. I tend to overpower my models and in so doing add weight. That means I have to look very close at what extra covering / surface work I do. Covering with silk / paper etc. adds to my already portly figures and I ternd to accept that bare foam is order of day for me .. with minimal taped edges ...

But that long grass sure does some awful damage !! I've extracted blades out of cuts into L/E's an inch back into wing ! You wouldn't think such a soft item could do it.

On Baz's Pop-bottle canopies etc. - I still have to try it ... have the whole thread description printed of ...

And anyway - Baz is a far better builder than ever will be !

Cheers
Nigel

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Old 02-02-2013, 01:30 AM   #11
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Default necessity being the the mother of invention.....

Sounds like you have your hands full there, with lots of running repairs, replacements and of course, building. The lanc seems to be running parallel to Barrys' build....guess we'll see who gets to bust a Dam first Very accurate observation about grass attempting to fillet you foam planes; my poor Guanli "Harrier" is made from quite brittle foam, and the leading edge of the anhedral wings and tail plane were literally chewed away on each susbsequent landing. The fact it comes in so fast because it drops like a rock once the power is cut did not help I ended up placing very thin CF ribbon on the LE and then holding it in place with bi-directional tape, which solved the problem handled better too, as it acted as a wing spar as well. The lack of materials where you live sounds awfully familiar as well. You can be almost envious of US modellers, who seem to be able to get what ever they want, but then you have to look at the big picture of living there as well....no Yank bashing intended. Being seperated from mainland Australia means I have to pay exorbitant freight costs for everything, as goods come to the big mainland cities first, then you get slugged for shipping again, as the thinly disguised pirate ship that carries all our supplies takes its' share of booty. The population is too small, and the hobby so limited, that you have to be as resourcefull as possible. Weirdly enough, I get most of my building materials from New Zealand, as international freight direct to Tasmania is a fraction of the domestic rate, and their dollar is much weaker than ours.. Just have to wait a few weeks for the freighter to make its' way around the Islands....anyway, have to run, as my wife has just found a list of jobs for me to do...happy flying, Cheers
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Old 02-02-2013, 02:49 AM   #12
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The two real problems are :

hard wood strip for spars

thin lite-ply

I can get balsa to order - but it's expensive as it comes from Robbe !

I bought a bench circular saw and fine tooth disc - so I can buy wood batten from local DIY shop and strip to size I need. As to ply - that's a pain. Again I can order - but price for a small square is criminal ! I therefore look for all sorts of substitutes ... latest is floor laminate offcuts. Light - takes screws well .. easy cut and sanded ..

Frustrating to say the least !!

Depron is available and I can get 6mm / 3mm within a couple of days - ordered through our online shop in capital. But the joke is : it comes from supplier nearer my house than the shop ...
I tried getting them to sell direct - it's actually a factory producing the stuff in more sizes as well ... but no reply. Even asked my builder pal to try - nothing. It's not cheap either !!

Well - should be back home 3 - 4 days from now ... Singapore job is completing later today ... then it's paperwork and fly home.
Have Parkjet Twin to maiden ... models to repair ... swap of motors ... plenty to do as long as weather improves ..

Cheers
Nigel

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Old 02-02-2013, 12:06 PM   #13
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I believe the idea of covering foam with silk was formulated by Paul (pd1) a few years ago. Either way I'm so glad that he and others posted the method on Wattflyer as it has been a huge factor in enabling me to build with the rubbish foam that is available to me.
We're all learning from each other every day and it's great to see all these ideas developing.

Barry
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Old 02-02-2013, 09:18 PM   #14
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Don't know if it helps but plywood doorskins might be available at stores or used furniture places. A buddy built a 1/4 scale plane using these for the fuselage sides. Also those Japanese bamboo blinds are a good source for 1/8 in. dowels. They are actually fruitwood. Very inexpensive and a 4 by 4 ft. blind will give you a lifetime supply. Hope this helps.

Gord.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:28 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by flypaper 2 View Post
Don't know if it helps but plywood doorskins might be available at stores or used furniture places. A buddy built a 1/4 scale plane using these for the fuselage sides. Also those Japanese bamboo blinds are a good source for 1/8 in. dowels. They are actually fruitwood. Very inexpensive and a 4 by 4 ft. blind will give you a lifetime supply. Hope this helps.

Now that's right up my street ! Lateral thinking ... amazing what can be used when the mind opens up !!

Dowels - I've found a source of 6mm dowels sold in bundles as flower sticks ... straight and pine !

Doorskins ... mmmmm that's a hard one here .. but good for a look !

Once home - will check out the blinds ... Funny that - Wife wants them in house - but I'm not keen on them. My mind is now changed !!

Maybe it's time to have a thread devoted to alternative materials ?

Cheers

Nigel

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Old 02-03-2013, 02:20 AM   #16
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Maybe you can get some blinds for your wife that are a little to long and you can shorten them up a bit for her.

Gord.
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Old 02-05-2013, 09:57 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by flypaper 2 View Post
Maybe you can get some blinds for your wife that are a little to long and you can shorten them up a bit for her.
If mine did not still work part time for the KGB, I could probably smuggle more building materials in myself I wonder if I could get HK to re-label their packages with "house renovation supplies"......
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