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Old 12-19-2013, 11:02 AM   #1
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Thumbs up Hangar9 Spitfire Mk IXc 30CC and Electric Also!

Hi guys,

Hangar9 just announced the new Warbird and its a fantastic Spitfire Mk IXc 30CC with easy option for Electric using E-Flite 160 and 10S, 5,000mAH Lithium Polymers!

http://www.horizonhobby.com/products...cc-arf-HAN4495









Per the manual for Electric Section:




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Old 12-19-2013, 11:47 AM   #2
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Oh Baby! Now that's sweet.

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Old 12-19-2013, 07:09 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by guapoman2000 View Post
Hi guys,

Hangar9 just announced the new Warbird and its a fantastic Spitfire Mk IXc 30CC with easy option for Electric using E-Flite 160 and 10S, 5,000mAH Lithium Polymers!
H'mmm
Just ran the numbers through www.motocalc.com. This web site recommends running that E-Flite 160 with a 10S LiPo, and a 19X12 APC-E prop.

Motocalc indicates this motor will be running nearly 500 degrees F on this setup, with only 73% motor efficiency. The motor would be pulling 80 Amps, and turn the prop at 6300 RPM. That would fry the motor in short order.

As a comparison, my $$$$ Hacker A60-16M on the same prop and battery pack will turn the prop at 6800 RPM, with 89.5% efficiency. The motor would be pulling the same 80 Amps out of the battery pack. After over 150 flights on my A60 motor, it runs only slightly warm after a hard flight.

Motocalc suggests running that E-Flite 160 with a 16X12 prop which it will turn at 7900 RPM while pulling about 60 Amps. With that, the E-Flite 160 motor would be running about 88% efficiency. With this setup, motocalc predicts a 1950 foot per minute rate of climb. Putting my $$$$ Hacker in the same model, motocalc predicts a rate of climb of 3100 fpm.

On the other hand, that Hacker is another $100 over the E-Flite motor.

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Old 12-19-2013, 08:42 PM   #4
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dang --- That is a sweet looking plane --

Too many hobbies, and not enough time!
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Old 12-29-2013, 07:19 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
H'mmm
Just ran the numbers through www.motocalc.com. This web site recommends running that E-Flite 160 with a 10S LiPo, and a 19X12 APC-E prop.

Motocalc indicates this motor will be running nearly 500 degrees F on this setup, with only 73% motor efficiency. The motor would be pulling 80 Amps, and turn the prop at 6300 RPM. That would fry the motor in short order.

As a comparison, my $$$$ Hacker A60-16M on the same prop and battery pack will turn the prop at 6800 RPM, with 89.5% efficiency. The motor would be pulling the same 80 Amps out of the battery pack. After over 150 flights on my A60 motor, it runs only slightly warm after a hard flight.

Motocalc suggests running that E-Flite 160 with a 16X12 prop which it will turn at 7900 RPM while pulling about 60 Amps. With that, the E-Flite 160 motor would be running about 88% efficiency. With this setup, motocalc predicts a 1950 foot per minute rate of climb. Putting my $$$$ Hacker in the same model, motocalc predicts a rate of climb of 3100 fpm.

On the other hand, that Hacker is another $100 over the E-Flite motor.
Seems to me that you are correct, according to the Estimator Software the AMP draw is pretty high, however, I too been playing with my P-Calc Online estimator and used the APC 4-Blade 15.5 X 12 Propeller and these are the results I got:

USING 10-Cells as Recommended:





USING 8-Cells :


I am thinking that 8-Cells would be better even with the 2-Blade propeller!

Later!
Carlos
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Old 12-29-2013, 07:34 PM   #6
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Default APC "E" 2-Blade 16 X 12 and 8-Cells

Wow! Check it out!

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Old 12-29-2013, 08:34 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by guapoman2000 View Post
Wow! Check it out!

Yup
Just ran those numbers through www.motocalc.com, and it pretty matched your results on the 8 cell battery pack. Motocalc does NOT match the results on the 4 blade prop though. Motocalc indicates efficiency at only 79% while pulling 80 Amps on the four blade prop. Motocalc also indicates the motor won't live long, as a result of the motors windings hitting some 500 degrees F.

The advantage of motocalc though, is it predicts the flight ability of the electric power system in your airplane as a whole unit. Motocalc indicates the model will fly OK on 8 cells and the 16X12 prop. But, with an 8 cell LiPo, the model is flying at about 1200 watts, or 72 watts per pound of airplane. It's only turning that 16X12 prop at 6500 RPM. IMHO, that would be a rather anemic fighter plane with a best climb out rate of only 1200 feet per minute at a 20 degree angle.

As a comparison, my $$$$ Hacker A60-16M turns a 19X12 APC-E wide blade prop at 6800 RPM, unwinding to 7200 RPM in the air. (Per Castle Creations ESC download) That Hacker motor is running at more than double the watts of the 160 motor, and still holding 90% efficiency. Putting that A60 motor in this model, motocalc predicts a climb out rate of 2900 Feet per minute, at 60 degrees, much improved over the 1200 FPM of the other motor.

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Old 12-30-2013, 02:27 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
Yup
Just ran those numbers through www.motocalc.com, and it pretty matched your results on the 8 cell battery pack. Motocalc does NOT match the results on the 4 blade prop though. Motocalc indicates efficiency at only 79% while pulling 80 Amps on the four blade prop. Motocalc also indicates the motor won't live long, as a result of the motors windings hitting some 500 degrees F.

The advantage of motocalc though, is it predicts the flight ability of the electric power system in your airplane as a whole unit. Motocalc indicates the model will fly OK on 8 cells and the 16X12 prop. But, with an 8 cell LiPo, the model is flying at about 1200 watts, or 72 watts per pound of airplane. It's only turning that 16X12 prop at 6500 RPM. IMHO, that would be a rather anemic fighter plane with a best climb out rate of only 1200 feet per minute at a 20 degree angle.

As a comparison, my $$$$ Hacker A60-16M turns a 19X12 APC-E wide blade prop at 6800 RPM, unwinding to 7200 RPM in the air. (Per Castle Creations ESC download) That Hacker motor is running at more than double the watts of the 160 motor, and still holding 90% efficiency. Putting that A60 motor in this model, motocalc predicts a climb out rate of 2900 Feet per minute, at 60 degrees, much improved over the 1200 FPM of the other motor.
I have MotorCalc and just did not feel it is all that accurate so, I went back to the Rough and Ball Park Figure "P-Calc" online free calculator!

I have had many Power Systems that MotorCalc said the motor will melt and the model is still flying on it today.

For your information 72 Watts per pound with a Pitch speed of 80+ MPH is NOT weak!

I am presently flying a (7.3lbs) 57 inch wing span Hangar9 F4U-1D Corsair .50 size on the Model Motors AXi 4120/18 (515Kv) swinging the APC "E" 13 X 10 propeller on just 4-Cells, 4,000mAH, 40C discharge, Lithium Polymers and zooms nicely at 74 MPH and the actual Static measured values:

Steady State Static @ 2:28.49
HALF THROTTLE:
10.25AMPs / 168 Watts / 16.05 Volts

Steady State Static @ 2:37.92 mark it measured:
FULL THROTTLE:
37.78 AMPs / 583 Watts / 15.45 Volts

Okay for Watts per Pound calculations:
583 Watts / 7.3lbs. = 79.86 Watts / lbs.


Ground Speed from my Garmin Geko 201 GPS


Therefore, I would not take too much attention to these Estimators, especially the MotorCalc software. I still have the Installation Disks and since I bought it, I have since Upgraded my Computer two generations now....I wonder if they still work on the new Windows 8.1? HA!
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Old 12-30-2013, 02:50 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by guapoman2000 View Post
I have MotorCalc and just did not feel it is all that accurate so, I went back to the Rough and Ball Park Figure "P-Calc" online free calculator!


Therefore, I would not take too much attention to these Estimators, especially the MotorCalc software. I still have the Installation Disks and since I bought it, I have since Upgraded my Computer two generations now....I wonder if they still work on the new Windows 8.1? HA!
Yeah, the only problem with motocalc and similar software, these software programs are only as accurate as the information provided by the motor mfg. I've found some of these motor mfg specs are not even close to the actual values. And that was on some name brand electric motors. I had one club members name brand electric motor whose specs were off by 50% on overall power on a given prop and battery pack. He had to go from a 6S to an 8S LiPo battery.

On my Hacker motors, the Hackers have accurate specs, and motocalc is within 10% or so of the actual test values on my 8 Hacker motors, ranging from an A30 to two A60's. (One reason I use those $$$$ Hacker motors. No unpleasant surprises.)

As for me, my models are flying at about 120 to 150 watts per pound of airplane. Something I'm comfortable with. These power levels result in performance on a par (or even better than) with the same model with glow or gas power. With that comes shorter flying times. On the order of 6 minutes, with a 3 minute reserve in case someone is on the field, or what ever.

Motocalc does work with Windows 8.1. You might have to contact motocalc for a free upgrade.

A while back, I had a GPS system that showed ground speed on my giant scale electric models of about 85 MPH on level flight, and over 100 MPH on a slight dive. That was in a no wind condition. Problem is with these GPS units, they don't allow for wind, so if you've got a 15 MPH wind and are flying down wind, the GPS is off by 15 MPH. I've also measured flight speed with a pitot tube indicator, that also showed speeds on the order of 85 MPH or so on several different models.

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Old 12-30-2013, 02:40 PM   #10
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kyleservicetech,

I hear ya with your minimum Power (Watts per Pound)!

However, I like my planes to have just a tiny bit above scale like manners and not overpowered to the point of having it performed Hover or unlimited vertical.

Of course there is nothing wrong with that if that's what you like.

I have been flying all my large models on the wing and have not had any issues to date.

I am planning on this one and those 8-Cells setup look terrific with a cruise speed of about 70-MPH and keeping those AMPs down for a longer flight.

Take care and best of luck on yours.
Carlos
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Old 12-30-2013, 08:42 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by guapoman2000 View Post
kyleservicetech,

I hear ya with your minimum Power (Watts per Pound)!

However, I like my planes to have just a tiny bit above scale like manners and not overpowered to the point of having it performed Hover or unlimited vertical.

Of course there is nothing wrong with that if that's what you like.

I have been flying all my large models on the wing and have not had any issues to date.

I am planning on this one and those 8-Cells setup look terrific with a cruise speed of about 70-MPH and keeping those AMPs down for a longer flight.

Take care and best of luck on yours.
Carlos
Yup
Ten years ago, I scratch built a 150% version of the "Electrostreak" that was popular in the late 1990's.

The model turned out to be 65 inches wingspan, 850 square inches, and 8 pounds. The front of the model was designed with a bolt on 1/8 inch thick aluminum motor mount plate to allow for an easy switch between different motors. That was long before the high powered brushless motors became available.

To start off, original power was a geared Astroflight 40 brush type motor running on 22 sub C nicad cells. Prop was a 13X10, power was around 700 watts. Did a lot of flying with that setup, but everything got HOT. The batteries and motor got so hot, you could not touch them after a flight. I actually put together a fan to blow through the motor and battery pack while recharging the unit. The aluminum toothed gears were not much good either.

Then, Astro came out with a brushless 40 motor. With the bolt on firewall that was built into the model, this was an easy swap. Not much improvement in power though.

And last, that same model was upgraded to a Hacker A50-12S motor, and a 6S2P A123 battery pack. Simple job again, the firewall was replaced with an 1/8 inch thick aluminum plate drilled out to match the Hacker motor. Prop is a 15X10 APC-E, power is around 1200 watts. And, going from a 22 cell Nih pack to a 12 cell A123 pack resulted in reducing the model weight by a full POUND! Along with that, the far better efficiency of the brushless motor also allowed double the flying time, as compared to the brush motor and Nih cells. This model appears in the second thread below.

Still got that model, its got over 1000 recorded flights on it now. As for the A123's, they pretty much last the life of the model. They can be repeatedly fast charged in 15 minutes with a high powered charger. And, these batteries have zero fire hazard, so they are built into the plane. These A123's are 1/3 more weight, 1/3 larger in physical size, and 2.8 Volts per cell under load. For models of the type you are flying, they do work well. I've got them on two giant scale models, running over 2500 watts on a 12S2P pack. One has 250 flights, the battery pack still puts out the same exact RPM, and the same flight time as when brand new.

Thread on 70 size glow engine conversion to electric
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45222

Hacker 6S2P A123 powered Models
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44686

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Old 01-05-2014, 04:20 PM   #12
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I wonder if anyone has tried a nice 4-Blade Propeller with the E-Flite 160?

I have searched but, nothing until this morning!!!!

Check it out!
http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/a...article_id=863
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Old 01-14-2014, 04:38 PM   #13
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I have just ordered my Spitfire, hopefully it will arrive late January/early February. Should be a very exciting plane to put together and fly.

I plan on building it pretty much out of the box so to speak. I will add retracts from Eflite as well as do some scale detailing of the cockpit and add some mild weathering to it to complete the finish.

I have been looking at several motors as possibilities. I have made several large scale electric planes in the 1/4 scale size very successfully using the Eflite, Scorpion, AXI, and Hacker motors.

I have a couple Hangar 9 1/4 scale Super Cubs (older version from around 2002/2003) that I have put together for aerotowing. I used a Eflite Power 160 on the first as a trial.........worked, but not enough power. Then upgraded to an AXI 5330-180 with a 20-8 prop on 10s. On the second I have two motors I have tried: a Hacker A60-18L and a Scorpion 5530-160, both run on 12s using 20-13 props. These have worked well for their purposes, but for aerotowing I have found I only get about 3-4 full tows before I have to change out the batteries for charging.

For the Spitfire I have an Eflite Power 180 that I will be testing a bit as well as looking at the Hacker A60-16L. I think either of these may work very well on 10s if the right prop is used. They should have about 2000 to 3000 watts depending on the final set-up.

As far as multiple blade props go there are several options. One that might be a consideration to look at are the Solo Props:

soloprops.com (you will have to cut and paste this into your browser)

They have great products from what I understand and I have read several reports of good success with them for scale applications such as the Spitfire and many other models.

I know that APC, Mejlik as well as Xoar also produce multi-blade props.

Bob
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Old 01-14-2014, 04:51 PM   #14
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Heavy Metal Bob !

Top quality gear you're flying. Congrats !

-Hawk

Wounded Warrior Fun Fly - Aug 16th ,2014 - Grapevine TX - Info link: https://support.woundedwarriorprojec...ising/RCPilots
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Old 01-14-2014, 09:32 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by rcmorrow View Post

I have been looking at several motors as possibilities. I have made several large scale electric planes in the 1/4 scale size very successfully using the Eflite, Scorpion, AXI, and Hacker motors.

I have a couple Hangar 9 1/4 scale Super Cubs (older version from around 2002/2003) that I have put together for aerotowing. I used a Eflite Power 160 on the first as a trial.........worked, but not enough power. Then upgraded to an AXI 5330-180 with a 20-8 prop on 10s. On the second I have two motors I have tried: a Hacker A60-18L and a Scorpion 5530-160, both run on 12s using 20-13 props. These have worked well for their purposes, but for aerotowing I have found I only get about 3-4 full tows before I have to change out the batteries for charging.

For the Spitfire I have an Eflite Power 180 that I will be testing a bit as well as looking at the Hacker A60-16L. I think either of these may work very well on 10s if the right prop is used. They should have about 2000 to 3000 watts depending on the final set-up.


Bob
Hi Bob
The comparison between the Eflite Power 180 and the Hacker A60-16L is interesting. Looking at the motor specs, the Hacker's winding resistance is half of the Power 180, which indicates higher efficiency. And, the Hacker motor is $40 less $$$$ than the Power 180. Having looked at a Power 180 in the hobby shop, IMHO, the Hacker is slightly better quality. (The Power 180 motor windings don't completely fill the winding space, the Hacker's do. That allows heavier gauge wire for the same KV numbers.)

What I don't understand is the very short propeller shaft stub of the E-Flite motor, at only 0.45 inches long. The Hacker motor has a full length 1.9 inch long, hardened steel threaded 8 mm shaft.
https://www.aero-model.com/8_72_910/...s/A60-18L.html
http://www.horizonhobby.com/products...cMgodNTsA4A#t2

I've got two Hacker A60 motors, they are real powerhouses. Both are running the APC-E 19X12 Wide blade props, pulling about 75 Amps at full power on a 12S2P A123 pack. Both motors are only slightly warm after a hard flight.

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Old 01-14-2014, 10:22 PM   #16
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Excellent notes on the motors, many thanks for sharing !

I think the Hacker motors are an excellent choice for many reasons and most likely the choice I will be making for this airframe. I am thinking about both the A60-16L and the A60-16M as they are both excellent possibilities.

The Spitfire is most likely to be at about 20 lbs finished weight with motor and batteries as well as the recommended retracts. I am not one that feels extreme speed or extreme over powering is appropriate, but as I have found with many of my aircraft over the years I always like to have some reserve for those unexpected and unplanned moments !

I shared information on the Eflite 180 as an option as there may be people who look at this as a possible choice for this aircraft or ones of similar size and power requirements.

The dialogue is excellent as it shares very important information for all to have when considering the many power options that are available today.

Thank you !

Bob
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Old 01-15-2014, 12:48 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by rcmorrow View Post
Excellent notes on the motors, many thanks for sharing !

I think the Hacker motors are an excellent choice for many reasons and most likely the choice I will be making for this airframe. I am thinking about both the A60-16L and the A60-16M as they are both excellent possibilities.

The Spitfire is most likely to be at about 20 lbs finished weight with motor and batteries as well as the recommended retracts. I am not one that feels extreme speed or extreme over powering is appropriate, but as I have found with many of my aircraft over the years I always like to have some reserve for those unexpected and unplanned moments !

I shared information on the Eflite 180 as an option as there may be people who look at this as a possible choice for this aircraft or ones of similar size and power requirements.

The dialogue is excellent as it shares very important information for all to have when considering the many power options that are available today.

Thank you !

Bob
Yup
I've got a Hacker A60-16M motor on a giant scale Big Stick, with a 19X12 APC-E Wide blade prop and a 12S2P A123 battery pack. This combo pulls about 70 Amps at full throttle. The model will fly straight up and keep on going.
Great Planes Giant Big Stick Electric Conversion
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65052

Methinks you'd need just a little bit more power for a military model, and that A60-16L motor should do a real good job.

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Old 01-15-2014, 01:01 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by rcmorrow View Post
Excellent notes on the motors, many thanks for sharing !

I think the Hacker motors are an excellent choice for many reasons and most likely the choice I will be making for this airframe. I am thinking about both the A60-16L and the A60-16M as they are both excellent possibilities.

The Spitfire is most likely to be at about 20 lbs finished weight with motor and batteries as well as the recommended retracts. I am not one that feels extreme speed or extreme over powering is appropriate, but as I have found with many of my aircraft over the years I always like to have some reserve for those unexpected and unplanned moments !

I shared information on the Eflite 180 as an option as there may be people who look at this as a possible choice for this aircraft or ones of similar size and power requirements.

The dialogue is excellent as it shares very important information for all to have when considering the many power options that are available today.

Thank you !

Bob
Hi Bob
For the other readers of this thread, it is never a good idea to bring a giant scale model in for a landing, and hammer the throttle for a go-around at just above the models stalling speed. The torque of that motor is instantaneous, and as the motor winds up the prop, your model will rotate in the other direction. In a split second. At full power, the torque of these 3000 watt motors is equivalent to putting a one pound lead brick on the outer tip of your left wing panel.

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Old 01-15-2014, 01:55 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by rcmorrow View Post

I shared information on the Eflite 180 as an option as there may be people who look at this as a possible choice for this aircraft or ones of similar size and power requirements.
Bob
Just did some looking up on that E-Flite Power 180 and its short 0.45 inch long shaft. This $299 motor requires a $22.49 propeller adapter, and, apparently it is not included.
http://www.horizonhobby.com/webapp/w...pe=productgrid

That makes it $60 more than the more powerful Hacker A60-18L motor.

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Old 01-15-2014, 02:55 AM   #20
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I have been using an A60-18L on my Super Cub for towing most recently and have been very pleased with its power and performance. I run 12s on this set up with a Mejlik 20.5 x 12 wide carbon prop. Plenty of power and runs extremely well for electric aerotowing.

I agree with your comments about using power carefully with aircraft. It is very important to be gentle with all the controls so to speak when flying as the torque as well as potential over control with other functions can easily result in disastrous results. A soft touch goes a long way !

The Super Cub is a very stable aircraft and relatively forgiving, but as the type of airframe is changed to a more scale/performance based model (such as the Spitfire) it become increasingly important to understand the flight characteristics under a wide range of flight conditions.

As to the Hangar 9 30cc Spitfire I am speaking hypothetically as I have not had the opportunity to fly it yet..........but based on my previous experiences with many Hangar 9 models over the past several years (more than 10 to 20 years at this point) I would suggest it will have very good flight characteristics and also be forgiving even though it is a scale/performance design.

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Old 02-01-2014, 03:29 AM   #21
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I just saw news the Spitfire should be shipping within the next week or so.

I have been working on getting all the various parts together here for working on mine once it arrives. The pilot just arrived today from Best Pilots and is outstanding, very well made and the painting is absolutely fantastic. Also very lightweight, which is very good especially for planning on an electric set-up.

I have various detail parts for the cockpit and looking forward to seeing how much I will be able to finish it out. From what I have seen on the various sites and photos of the airframe the cockpit has a platform for a partial pilot. I have to see what the internal structure is once the airframe arrives to determine how much I will do in this area, Hoping to remove the platform and install a fairly complete cockpit if possible.

Still thinking about the powerplant. The hacker A60-16L or the A60-18L both look promising. For 10s I think the A60-16L may be the answer. Keeps the weight of the batteries down a bit and should have outstanding performance for this particular airframe.

More to come when everything arrives here.

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Old 02-01-2014, 06:52 AM   #22
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I have a very good experience with the following power set:
-> Hacker A60-6xs V2 28 poles
-> Castle ICE 100 with s-bec
-> 7s2p a123
-> Xoar 20*13 prop
Light and powerfull

Fyi Motocalc gave a 18*12 prop !?
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Old 02-01-2014, 07:57 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ramboman View Post
I have a very good experience with the following power set:
-> Hacker A60-6xs V2 28 poles
-> Castle ICE 100 with s-bec
-> 7s2p a123
-> Xoar 20*13 prop
Light and powerfull

Fyi Motocalc gave a 18*12 prop !?
H'mmm
Have you checked the current pulled by this setup with a wattmeter?

Motocalc suggests the current at WOT will be around 100 Amps, with the motor efficiency dropping to only about 75%. Which is terrible for this size motor. How hot is that motor (and the battery pack for that matter) after a flight? If you can hold your fingers on the motor for 15 seconds without branding yourself, the motor should be running OK. Hacker does indicate it is safe to run this motor at 100 Amps for a few seconds.

Going to that 18X12 prop would drop your current, increase efficiency to about 86%, and give roughly the same performance. At least, according to Motocalc.

If you have a very fast, very streamlined model that really unloads the prop at flying speed, that could be OK?

I've got the Hacker A60-5S motor, running on a 10S2P A123 battery pack, and a 19X12 APC-E wide blade prop. This combination pulls 73 Amps and 26.9 VDC at full throttle, turning the prop at some 6400 RPM. After a flight on a Redwing MXSR model, everything is quite cool.

Really like those 8 mm solid steel threaded shafts on these motors. NO prop adapters needed.
https://www.aero-model.com/8_72_1127...A60-5S-V2.html

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Old 02-02-2014, 05:45 AM   #24
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Motocalc is wrong...
At least with a123...
See actual stress curves...
Motor was never too hot.


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Old 02-02-2014, 05:48 AM   #25
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See also Hacker figures with 6s LiPo...
I consider that 7s a123 is equivalent.


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