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Sport Planes (Formerly I/C & Gas Conversion) Discuss I/C or Gas Conversions, Aerobatic Planes and Sport Aircraft

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Old 09-03-2014, 11:51 PM   #1
tobydogs
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Default slow me down!!!help please.

hey gang,
I had a great weekend flying. monday was a no wind day and i took my greatplanes kit built electric conversions of the rv 4-40 and extra 300s to fly. even got a couple of videos with the keychain camera but the exposure seems to be to bright do to the sun being in the flight path and the clouds were very bright.

the question and problem is in the title. both planes fly very fast and the field is shorter than what i am used to. the planes are slightly heavier than the gas/nito build designs and the conversions to electric was fun to build.they handle great and both have tremendous vertical lift. rv 4on 5cells,and the extra 300s with 7cells on eflite power 60.{awesome power!!]

i made approaches to land trying to slow them down but wound up knocking the lg's off with high speed approaches after several flights on each plane. is there a way to set the ailerons to slow down the final approach and what would be the correct way to set this up. i do have the eclipse 7 hitec tx.

i figure theres a way to flip a switch and get the ailerons to act both as ailerons and flaps.......flapperons,but will doing this cause a stall issue on the extra or should i just except the fact that these birds come in hot and deal with it.

note: i opted to not build the rv-4-40 with flaps so to increase the roll rate with full ailerons. i really am thrilled with the roll rate...just not the landing speed. i miss the old runway layout as approaches were easier to do. flying my arf 3dplanes are easy compared to the kit built models.

any suggestion will be helpful as i am sure others have this problem with different types of planes. stu

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 09-04-2014, 12:20 AM   #2
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Try:

Reflex the ailerons UP instead of lowering them On many models (especially tapered wing with constant chord aileron or ailerons that do not extend into the center 1/3 of the wing) this works to help prevent dropping a wing in a stall and presents the belly of the wing as a big airbrake.

Wag the rudder and yo can bleed off a lot of speed.

A lower pitch prop will act as a better airbrake when you chop throttle.

Learn (at altitude) how to get "behind the power curve". Hold nose high and find minimum power to maintain altitude. Raise the nose a touch more and it should start sinking AND slow down. you can get in a condition that requires half throttle and you are flying essentially at minimum speed without stalling. A tiny reduction in power will cause it to descend. Control descent rate with throttle.
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Old 09-04-2014, 12:21 AM   #3
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I know how to do it on a Spektrum DX8, but that's probably not going to help you. Essentially, all you have to do is to take the input from a three position switch and feed it into the ailerons. You will have to reverse one of the mixes. I would start with about 15 degrees of deflection. You can choose to have spoileron-neutral-flaperon or neutral-light flap-heavy flap depending how you set the offset of the mixes. You may also want to mix in some elevator. When you're in the flaperon position, mix to feed in an equal amount of down elevator. The opposite (up elevator) for spoilerons. You'll have to experiment to find an elevator mix that makes it fly neutral.

I would have asked you to come to my field so I could help you set it up, but it doesn't look like I'll have time for any flying this weekend. Anyway, you have a standing invitation to any of my clubs!

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Old 09-04-2014, 01:29 AM   #4
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njs,thats an invite i want to take you up on. i am having a blast flying the eflite edge 540t 50" ws. she rockets as if on rails and it's 3d capable even though my skills certainly aren't 3d.

fhhuber,
i fly my arfs the way you described into slow ,sweet, smooth landings almost all the time.just throttle up a little before touching down to get that scale look.....it's just these kits have a slow speed tip stall tendency and at 0 throttle and a long glide approach they still have to much speed. i must admit that a little wind would go along way to slowing the approach ,even a slight cross wind wouldn't hurt. i guess i need to experiment with these birds more as they don't get flown as much as the edge 260 36"ws and the eflite 540t.

practice makes perfect.......i'd settle for good landings.

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 09-04-2014, 01:47 AM   #5
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I used to SUCK at landings, but I had to get better when I started to fly the 30-50cc stuff. What I learned was that my approach was too steep. I would either panic and flare too quickly and pancake the plane or set it down with way too much speed and bounce down the runway. Now I try to come in lower or, if that's not possible, dive a steep in the beginning of the approach, but keep most if it very flat and shallow. That allows me to let the plane settle in so I can steer it with the throttle and ease it in.

Which Extra do you have? Extras and Slicks usually have very good stall characteristics. Are you sure your CG is correct?

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Old 09-04-2014, 02:02 AM   #6
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(Then again, I probably shouldn't lecture you on landings... Forgive me!)

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Old 09-04-2014, 02:21 AM   #7
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the extra is the kit built from greatplanes, the 300s. nothing at all like the slick or the edge 540t.

i am having a love hate relationship with my new laptop. i got the windows 8 again[2nd attempt] only to return it because my wife is an apple lover and really good with computers. now i have a 15" apple with 0 pictures or videos. those are on my old laptop love windows xp . those were simpler times. the good thing is my wife is able to help me both happily and easy. the windows 8 was going to be a pita. i just have to get my pictures off the otherwise sick ol'laptop.

njs, i'v been considering getting the 60 sbach 342 thunderbolt,either by skyline or goldwing. been searching online to p/u a light weight 60"ws arf for around $175 ,$200 shipped.hobbygeneral.comhas them on sale. i have the esc and eflite power 60 and figure 6cell 4000mah 40c like i use in the hog bipe. also already have the servos. the difference of flying characteristics will be night and day comparing it to kit conversions iv built.



lol...your not lecturing brother!! i love landing and in my club ,i see myself practicing all the time on the windiest days when other don't even bother flying...lol.landing never bothered me with lightweight arf.s and flights with the rv and extra before were days where the winds were helping slow things down.

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:31 AM   #8
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narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:35 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by tobydogs View Post
lol...your not lecturing brother!! i love landing and in my club ,i see myself practicing all the time on the windiest days when other don't even bother flying...lol.landing never bothered me with lightweight arf.s and flights with the rv and extra before were days where the winds were helping slow things down.
I hear ya, man... Actually, landing my 50cc gasser on the short field at GCA is a lot easier with a little wind. At least as long as it's not 100% crosswind. But yeah, landing a bigger and heavier plane requires a different technique. Although my 50cc Slick won't stall unless you go out and kick the thing.

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Old 09-04-2014, 02:48 AM   #10
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seems like lately cross winds are all we get and in the 10 to 15mph on weekends. this monday was the calmest in a long time.

my being a weekend flyer limits flight time if wind is going to be an issue,i love showing up and flying when other don't because of to much or cross wind. but then a lot of those guys don't work or are retired and fly all week long every morning....i have a few more years before i spend my weekdays flying.

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 09-04-2014, 03:40 AM   #11
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Nevermind that it's 100 bucks too expensive and out of stock, but I think you should look at the 60" Extreme Flight Extra. It's pretty sweet, especially if you like to draw crisp lines in the sky. I've seen a few used ones in good shape lately, though...

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Old 09-04-2014, 05:49 AM   #12
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Reflexing the elevons 'up' will add some drag but it will also reduce the wing's maximum coefficient of lift. So while it increases descent rate it also increases stall speed. IMHO this is the last thing you need if trying to get the model to fly slower. This is why landing flaps on all planes go down and not up.

Slight down deflection of flaperons might be ok but you have to be real careful because too much might make the plane prone to dropping a wing and might also badly effect response to aileron.

Far and away the best way to allow a plane to fly slower is reduce it's weight. To be honest if the models are overweight there is really not much that can be done to get them to fly slower other than fixing the problem and reducing weight. You can do all you want to add drag which will have the effect of putting on the brakes, but if it's heavy and you slow it down it will then simply stall and fall out of the sky, which i'm sure is not what you want.
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Old 09-04-2014, 07:14 AM   #13
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Learn how to Crab your plane in for a landing, rudder in right direction, ailerons turning left to slow it down before landing. straighten up before landing. Crabbing will add lots of drag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SmTxX4TLww

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpfTK9wMwMs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxoacmb7zxY

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Old 09-04-2014, 08:21 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
Learn how to Crab your plane in for a landing, rudder in right direction, ailerons turning left to slow it down before landing. straighten up before landing. Crabbing will add lots of drag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SmTxX4TLww

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpfTK9wMwMs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxoacmb7zxY
Ms Chellie is a bowlfull of right ideas as always , start with the rudder first then add ailerons enough to maintain level flight,
practice by flying away from yourself around two mistakes high, ( not to high as you'll need to see it ) this is also how to crosswind land as well by keeping the windward wing under the wind, as a side benefit you'll learn to flat turn at the same time
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Old 09-05-2014, 01:00 AM   #15
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i know how to land!!!!!!,jetplaneflyer is the one who hits the nail on the head.fly to slow results in tip stalls and i stated that in my first post. i just figure there was a comp.tx setting that might help but jetplaneflyer said it best.


quote:jetplaneflyer
"Far and away the best way to allow a plane to fly slower is reduce it's weight. To be honest if the models are overweight there is really not much that can be done to get them to fly slower other than fixing the problem and reducing weight. You can do all you want to add drag which will have the effect of putting on the brakes, but if it's heavy and you slow it down it will then simply stall and fall out of the sky, which i'm sure is not what you want."

thanks JPF.thats the best answer by far. i already wonder how i will complete the sig smith mini to come out lighter than the glow version.




all my 60 size conversions when loaded with batteries are heavy compared to same models on glow. i know this because at my field there was a sig hog bipe to lift and my good friend steve has a gp extra 300s he built same as mine on glow and my extra weighs more with 7cells 4000mah 40c batts[3&4cell series] installed. will say my extra has unlimited vertical and his doesn't .i also get a 10 min flight using lots of throttle on those vertical climbs and my batteries are only warm.

i hear everyone here say their conversion kits come out lighter than the glow weights so clearly i build heavy.

thats why i love my arf eflite 540t edge. i get the feeling everyone wants to teach me how to land a plane when the main question is how to slow down a rocket..

doesn't anyone else here have a plane that always comes in hot or am i the only one

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 09-05-2014, 01:37 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by tobydogs View Post
doesn't anyone else here have a plane that always comes in hot or am i the only one
Yes, my 88" Aerobeez Slick (50cc gasser) likes to come in really hot. It's actually pretty light for that size, but it still has enough mass to be reluctant to slow down. The solution has been to always come in on a flatter slope that what feels natural. That gives it enough time to slow down. Also, the fact that a gasser still has some pull on idle doesn't help...

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Old 09-05-2014, 11:14 AM   #17
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I suppose there are two possible and different problems.
  1. The model simply cannot fly slow because it's too heavy. When you do slow down it stalls. Only good solution for this is to reduce weight.
  2. The model will fly slow ok but it's difficult to get it to slow down. This is a different issue and can be fixed by adding drag (forward slip approach, spoilers, air brakes, flaps etc) or maybe just by a shallower landing approach. With electric models it's unlikely that prop pitch or idle speed is what's preventing it from slowing because electric (unlike i.c.) usually does not have an idle.
    If the model is nose heavy it also tends to make them come in 'hot'.

Or both of above....
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Old 09-05-2014, 01:52 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
I suppose there are two possible and different problems.
  1. The model simply cannot fly slow because it's too heavy. When you do slow down it stalls. Only good solution for this is to reduce weight.
  2. The model will fly slow ok but it's difficult to get it to slow down. This is a different issue and can be fixed by adding drag (forward slip approach, spoilers, air brakes, flaps etc) or maybe just by a shallower landing approach. With electric models it's unlikely that prop pitch or idle speed is what's preventing it from slowing because electric (unlike i.c.) usually does not have an idle.
    If the model is nose heavy it also tends to make them come in 'hot'.

Or both of above....
You hit the head on the nail! The plane in question is super floaty and has a very benign stall. However, it's got a bunch of mass and it's apparently not very draggy, so it just keeps going. Shallow approach does the trick.

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