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Old 01-25-2013, 04:49 PM   #251
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Richard Reynolds went back to the Smithsonian Archive looking for details on several topics. He had to get out of there quickly
to keep from being snow bound. One detail was the bomb sight ocular and radar dome. We had a very low polygon skin of
this which Richard could not edit to increase the polygon count to convert to a solid 3D CAD. Remember CAD skins found online
are only the outside of the model with "0" interior and "0" ability to be used in any Solid 3D program.


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Old 01-25-2013, 05:10 PM   #252
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Default 1:8.777867

Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
We took a short break before beginning our CNC milling and hot wiring. 1:8.7669 aka 1:9
section will resume shortly. I took a break to resolve scale wheels, brakes, electrifying the mains and the outriggers. Did I say I took
a break. I need a hobby to offset my hobby!
Richard Reynolds is converting all the Boeing T.O. drawings to CAD so I asked if he would check my scale by his 1:1 dim data. Size declaration
is the result of my meaning out 8 drawings to establish a usable set of multiple view drawings. All these were artist's creations except for two
engineer measured drawings drawn by Boeing for company which made ash tray and desk models when the B-47E contract was signed.

As a result of my meaning of all resources I calculated our two B-47's to be 1:8.7669 or .24 and change away from 1:9th scale. Richard reports
that I am actually 1:8.777867 scale. Life is good folks, we move on.

Click to see the third section of this design and build... http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69840

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Old 02-27-2013, 02:09 AM   #253
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Finally got a chance to get back on Wattflyer after a long hiatus (joined the Air Force and all that jazz), looks like some good progress is being made. I can't wait to start following this again.

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Old 06-22-2013, 05:06 PM   #254
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Default Where We Are 6/22/2013



Where are we now (June 22, 2013)...

If you have reached this post from the beginning congrats Continue on to the next section or
you will not understand our process later when it must be. However, if you are reviewing, I need
to let you know where we are today.

I tracked down Chris Davey in England. For those unfamiliar with Chris. Chris is the key Osprey
Publishing illustrator. Chris drew the most accurate multiple view drawings of the B-47 by
comparison to the eight we collected. Remember, during the in-service period, Cold War, all
measured drawings...with the exception of one...we have... were Top Secret! Aka not to be
found outside of the USAF and Boeing.

Chris drew a 1:48th multiple view for Aviation New's large format...18 x 28 centerfold. Each
month this now extinct news print scale aviation rag focused on a family of aircraft, looking at
The subjects from their point of origin. In this case, the swept wing jet bomber.



Chris's 1:48th original drawing was reproduced @ 1:72nd and portions overlapped to permit
them to fit the front and back of the single folded centerfold sheet. This is obviously not what
I was in need of, so...

Armed only with the a small scanned inage of half the center fold face, I searched the net
to find a 1:1 of the centerfold and came up empty. Yes, I went through Osprey's UK offices
via email but no one forwarded my inquiry to Chris. After two months there was no reply.

Finally I found favor with an editor in the New York office when I mentioned USA's F4C team
effort I am making. Finally I was taken seriously! Two days after inquiring... My email was
forwarded to Chris. 10 days later after thinking I had failed again on one Sunday evening, I
received a reply from Chris saying he had both a copy of the Sept. 12th, 1980 issue Vol. 9
Number 8 of Aviation News and the original inked vellum multiple view B-47 drawings.

Chris had both, and was at a point where he was ready to down size.

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Old 07-13-2013, 05:16 PM   #255
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Default 7-13-2013



Continuing with paste ups of 1/48th original pen and ink by Chris. Originals were scissored from original vellum so they could
be arranged for the Aviation News centerfold. These were damaged in transit due to improper packaging. Will share some of
these shortly.

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Old 07-14-2013, 04:19 AM   #256
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Default

Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post


Where are we now (June 22, 2013)...

If you have reached this post from the beginning congrats Continue on to the next section or
you will not understand our process later when it must be. However, if you are reviewing, I need
to let you know where we are today.

I tracked down Chris Davey in England. For those unfamiliar with Chris. Chris is the key Osprey
Publishing illustrator. Chris drew the most accurate multiple view drawings of the B-47 by
comparison to the eight we collected. Remember, during the in-service period, Cold War, all
measured drawings...with the exception of one...we have... were Top Secret! Aka not to be
found outside of the USAF and Boeing.

Chris drew a 1:48th multiple view for Aviation New's large format...18 x 28 centerfold. Each
month this now extinct news print scale aviation rag focused on a family of aircraft, looking at
The subjects from their point of origin. In this case, the swept wing jet bomber.



Chris's 1:48th original drawing was reproduced @ 1:72nd and portions overlapped to permit
them to fit the front and back of the single folded centerfold sheet. This is obviously not what
I was in need of, so...

Armed only with the a small scanned inage of half the center fold face, I searched the net
to find a 1:1 of the centerfold and came up empty. Yes, I went through Osprey's UK offices
via email but no one forwarded my inquiry to Chris. After two months there was no reply.

Finally I found favor with an editor in the New York office when I mentioned USA's F4C team
effort I am making. Finally I was taken seriously! Two days after inquiring... My email was
forwarded to Chris. 10 days later after thinking I had failed again on one Sunday evening, I
received a reply from Chris saying he had both a copy of the Sept. 12th, 1980 issue Vol. 9
Number 8 of Aviation News and the original inked vellum multiple view B-47 drawings.

Chris had both, and was at a point where he was ready to down size.
Not to revive an old enquiry from some time back, but did they pinpoint any particular aircraft as a point of origin for the swept wing bomber?
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Old 07-14-2013, 03:34 PM   #257
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Default Swept Wing B-47 Point Of Origin

Originally Posted by pattern14 View Post
Not to revive an old enquiry from some time back, but did they pinpoint any particular aircraft as a
point of origin for the swept wing bomber?
Per the B-47 Assn. web site and all documentation recorded for the B-47. This story of origin is told over and over:

The origin of the B-47 Stratojet can be traced back to the Second World War. In June of 1943, an informal USAAF request led several aircraft manufacturers to begin studies of multi-jet aircraft for fast photographic reconnaissance or medium bombing missions. On November 17, 1944, the USAAF issued formal requirements for a jet-powered medium bomber with a range of 3500 miles (3041 nautical miles), a service ceiling of 45,000 feet, and a maximum speed of 550 mph (478 knots).

Even before the USAAF began its study, Boeing had been working on the adaptation of large aircraft to jet propulsion. The initial Boeing study was a Model 424, which was essentially a scaled-down B-29 with four jet engines paired in two nacelles mounted underneath the wing. However, wind tunnel testing proved that this engine arrangement was unsatisfactory.



In December of 1944, Boeing engineers went back to the drawing board and came up with the Model 432, in which all four engines were moved inside the main fuselage to improve the efficiency of the wing. The engines were located right over the main fuel tank area of the fuselage and were fed by bulbous air intakes located beside the cockpit section.

The engines exhausted via tailpipes located on top of the rear fuselage. The aircraft still resembled a B-29, but with a much thinner wing. The USAAF was sufficiently impressed with this design that they awarded Boeing a Phase I study contract for the Model 432 proposal. The project was assigned the designation XB-47. At the same time, contracts were awarded to North American for the XB-45, Convair for the XB-46, and Martin for the XB-48.

The configuration of the XB-47 was soon to undergo a drastic change. Just after VE-Day in May of 1945, the US Army's Scientific Advisory Group headed by the famous aerodynamicist Theodor von Karman was allowed to visit German aircraft factories and aeronautical research facilities to see if any of the innovations developed there could be incorporated into American designs.

Boeing's chief aerodynamicist, George Schairer, accompanied the group. One of the items that was discovered was the results of some German research dating back to the mid-1930s on the use of swept-wings to improve the performance of high-speed aircraft. These studies confirmed independent studies carried out by NACA in the USA. The use of sweep angles as high as 45 degrees enhanced high-speed performance by delaying the formation of shock waves as the aircraft neared the speed of sound.


Word about the German research on swept wings was flashed back to Seattle, and Boeing engineers immediately stopped work on the straight-winged XB-47. Wind tunnel tests confirmed the essential validity of the German findings, and work began on a swept-winged version of the XB-47. Early in September of 1945, Boeing was ready with the first swept-wing design for the XB-47, which was designated Model 448 by the company. It retained the fuselage of the Model 432 but featured a thin wing swept back at an angle of 35 degrees at quarter chord, and incorporated two more engines added in the extreme tail for a total of six.

The other four engines were still mounted inside the upper fuselage, but were now fed by intakes cut into the extreme nose and exhausted over the top of the wing. The USAAF felt that housing engines inside the fuselage constituted a fire hazard, and preferred designs that incorporated externally mounted engines that would be easier to maintain or replace. In October of 1945, Boeing engineers returned to the drawing board and came up with the Model 450-1-1, which carried six jet engines mounted in pods - 2 pairs in strut-mounted inboard nacelles suspended underneath the inner wing and single units in pods attached to the wingtips. The USAAF liked the change, and approved the Model 450-1-1 in October of 1945.


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Old 07-14-2013, 05:42 PM   #258
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Default Electrical System Concern:

Every electrical component utilized in an EDF powered model clearly states the capacity
and voltage capabilitiy rating for that item. Commercial items are typically marked with
an international electric association logo from EU, Canadian, US, or PacRim standards.



Home made or DYI electrical components are discouraged. Integration of these items is
common in scale modeling. Consult an EE when in doubt!!!


Project Preamble: Please read and determine for yourself how the following applies to you, the reader:

Any and all persons reading this discussion must come to their own determination of the safety and wisdom of
emulating or replicating any and all aspects of what is described within this discussion.

This includes, but is not limited to your own decision on the safety of and whether you should be involved in this
or these activities and any processes or use of equipment related to recreating what is, or has been discussed
here-in by topic author and subscribers to WattFlyer, the host of this discussion.

Neither the author of this topic nor WattFlyer.com are responsible for proper or improper use of, nor the correct
or incorrectness of any process activity undertaken by any one or all readers of this construction thread.

*As in all modeling activities, reader beware of the personal skills to either properly or improperly apply the
principals described here-in. It is impossible to declare whether this activity is or is not proper for readers of
this discussion. The reader is solely responsible for their utilization of this information.

For your safety, consult an electrical engineer to explain the dangers associated with a model powered with
voltages equal or greater to those utilized in this EDF Boeing B-47 project.



*Ref.From a Candle Power Systems forum discussion


When does DC voltage become dangerous?:
The problem with such a question is that the answer is so complicated. It's mostly the amount of current
flowing into a vital organ that causes death.
If you run a current between two fingers on the same hand, only a small percent of the current will flow through,
for instance, your heart. If you run the current from your left hand to your right hand, a larger percentage of the
current will flow through the heart. A medical patient with, for instance electrodes for a heart monitor could
have a much lower current threshold if there's some sort of electrical problem because .

Even though we say current is the problem, what we see most of the time is voltage. We are usually dealing with
what we consider to be "constant voltage" sources. This would be something like a battery. It produces 1.5 Volts
most of the time. If you have 0.01 mA flowing, it's 1.5 Volts. If you pull 500 mA out of it, it's still close to 1.5V.

Now, assume you have an exposed voltage of 50 V somewhere. If you walk up and touch it and have on shoes
with rubber or plastic soles, the electrical resistance of your shoes is so high that you might only get a few micro
amps. Change to leather soles, you still probably don't get much current. Now, assume you're touching a metal
piece of furniture with one hand and touch the 50V circuit with the other. You get considerably more current.

Now, consider if you have sweaty hands and are making really good contact with a grounded metal table. Now,
assume you're standing in a decorative fountain with wet hands working on the water pump and you don't realize
that the 50V DC power supply isn't turned off.

The threshold of "safe" voltage varies widely in these different situations because the electrical resistance varies
so widely.

In the electrical engineer safety discussions, a "nightmare" scenario was something like "A technician is working
on a piece of low voltage electronic equipment. The equipment has energized components with sharp edges, for
instance voltage test pins. The technician slips and manages to spear a finger on each hand with a pin and pierce
the skin. What's a safe voltage level here?" The answer was that there probably was no safe level.

With all that said, you mostly worry about voltages above 50V. You understand that lower voltages can still be dangerous
in certain conditions. You become more concerned in wet conditions, or any kind of medical situation. Me, I start getting
nervous above 12V, and ratchet up the nervousness as voltage gets higher.

You also understand that a lower voltage high current situation can cause thermal burn problems. For instance, shorting
out a car battery with your class ring can cause a really nasty burn.

By the way, telephone wiring is around 48 Volts when the phone is on the hook, and we normally don't worry about that
too much. However, if you're messing with some phone line connection and thoughtlessly decide to hold the connector
in your mouth to free both hands, it can be an unpleasant or even fatal surprise. Especially if the phone rings, when the
voltage jumps to around 90V.

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Old 10-29-2014, 04:25 PM   #259
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Default Bernie's Las Vegas B-47

A lot to be learned from this footage...Feed back from everyone welcomed



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Old 10-30-2014, 12:16 AM   #260
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Default

It's a great looking model but the attention to detail lacks the quality of your project. Really hated to see it crash, did the gear ever retract fully? The JATO looking setup cause other issues??

Take care and thanks for posting at WattFlyer!!

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Old 10-30-2014, 12:57 AM   #261
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Don,

The front main never retracted, in fact I believe it came loose in the gear well
as it was right angles to the direction of flight. Bernie's B-47 is an example of
old school scale modeling...even down to the rubber bands stretched between
the wings, intended to keep them from flying off on their own.

There is considerable evidence preceding the end result. Watching this over and
over will bring you to the same heading error issue.

I don't agree with the pilot's assessment of the crash point of origin. He kept
repeating he had no elevator at the end.

There is precious little elevator on the B-47 to begin with, however my money
is on the velocity during severe angle of attack preventing elevator from being
effective.

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Old 10-30-2014, 07:19 PM   #262
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Default

Looked very similar to the full size fatal B-52 crash at fairchild in 94. I think that was put down to the plane being banked over far to aggressively exceeding the planes maximum bank angle at which point the ailerons (more like spoilers on the B52) became ineffective.

Possibly something similar on the plane in the video? It also seemed to be Dutch rolling for the entire flight though that's probably not the cause of the crash.

What do you think:
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Old 10-30-2014, 07:46 PM   #263
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Default

My conversation with the pilot stopped after his denial Dutch Roll plagued his flight. I
was lost for words at that point since video clearly shows the Dutch Roll. This is sad
as they are doomed to repeating this with the rebuild unless they seriously review all
aspects of the original flight.

Sam and I believe the rubber bands holding the wings in place with little tension was
the cause of the crash. It would not take too much wing rise to loose lift and end up
with what you see in the video.

Nothing is precise, especally reviewing such a poorly shot video. I was led to believe
the gentleman was an experienced shooter. I somehow find dot in the blue helpful in
reverse engineering things.
I had planned for this in advance and paid the shooter to shoot up close and personal
shots permitting review after the landing approach as I wanted to review the entire
approach to touch down for effect of Dutch Roll on the heading retention.

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Old 11-09-2014, 08:16 PM   #264
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Said pilot does not know a Dutch Roll from a Jelly Doughnut if he did not notice the wing rocking that was blatantly obvious from liftoff to the bitter end. I would definitely hook up the rudder to a heading gyro after watching the original video. (I couldn't get the supplied copy to go full screen.) A yaw damper seems essential. But, as you say, the Dutch roll was not the cause of the crash & the phase from the high bank angle, high G turn to impact was one of the most stable parts of the whole flight. It was apparent even prior to liftoff that there was beaucoup flex in those wings. My first thought was "cool, just like the original." My second thought was "I hope the wings stay on." Looking at the admittedly poor footage of the terminal descent I saw quite a bit more dihedral than was evident on the takeoff. That was clear evidence of high G & there would have been some loss of lift, how much is speculative. There is no way of knowing how effective the elevator was either in that situation. The claim in the blurb on the online video was that the crash was caused by loss of the elevator servo but no facts were posted to back it up. Was it tested post crash & found inoperative? I would offer that the inability to keep the nose up may have even been caused by an accelerated root stall resulting from the high G load. This could have shifted the average lifting point (center of pressure) of the wing aft which would have the same effect as shifting the CG forward far enough to overcome the elevator's ability to keep the nose up. Even if that was not the cause, where was the balance point? A slightly too far forward CG would possibly exacerbate the elevator's limited effectiveness at high alpha. Dunno, it's a mystery.
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Old 11-10-2014, 12:24 AM   #265
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Default Minimum Elevator Area

B-47 CG on a 1/10th scale model is roughly 4 inches aft of left and right wing trailing
edge intersect.





This being 25% of Mac. I would recommend balance be slightly nose heavy with switched two if
not three degrees of sensititivity. The elevator is a very narrow, aka minimumally effective item.


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Old 11-10-2014, 06:46 PM   #266
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Default What's A Dutch Roll Look Like........ ?

You would be amazed in the number of times I have had to explain the image below.

It is difficult to discuss technically because of the multiple terms so loosely defined. I have
difficulty when someone barks a reply or answer too quickly without consideration of another
opinion...

Especially when evidence clearly matches a net result from a flight or less than pleasing concluded flight.



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Old 05-01-2015, 06:33 PM   #267
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Default Fiddili-Bits With Which To Build

Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Flite, After reading your introduction to this 'in the middle' thread I excitedly scanned through
the subsequent posts expecting to see some build photos of the model coming together... But all i see is more design sketches
/ drawings which to be honest make it look like just more of the 18 month long 'in the beginning' thread.

Have you started building? Sorry if I'm being impatient... Steve
I suppose at this point Steve must have been bored and stopped following this thread. We are making sectional components with
which to assemble our first of three versions of the Boeing B-47.

Sam's B-47 Weather Bomber presents so much eye candy and packed with so much story telling about how these were the only
one's to be fired at by a Russian/Cino Mig during the coldest of the cold war.



Excuse the distraction...here's the weather bomber...


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Old 05-01-2015, 07:35 PM   #268
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Default Instant B-47 Flying Model

Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Errr.. an airplane?

My point is that in the first post in this thread you said:

So unless I've grasped the wrong end of the stick this 'In The middle' thread is supposed to be about 'construction and assembly'...
I eagerly expected to hear and see the story of the plane's construction and assembly. I was a bit disappointed when all i see is a
lot more design discussion, which to be honest looks no different to the long running 'In the beginning' thread Steve
OK, here it is, a flying model of the B-47. Quick and easy assembly for those who have lost patience with this thread. CG is approx
one inch behind the center intersect of the two wing trailing edges. Enlargement will permit you to construct a better flying model.
Enlargement to 12" wing span will put a smile on your face when flown.



The purpose of this thread was to witness the entire process of scratch building a competitive flying scale model project who's
origins pre-dated the technology to permit it to be flown in scale proportions as a jet, edf or kero-burner either one.

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Old 05-01-2015, 08:40 PM   #269
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This is cool. I think if you are to make a successful flight however, you will need to stiffen up the wing. I reference 7:27 as evidence. For the next flight you could bring two go-pro cameras aboard and add streamers to the wings in select areas (unless of course you are sure the problem will not occur again). Then you can see if the problem is structural, aerodynamical, or the interaction between the two. I hope you don't have to though. Good luck!

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Old 05-01-2015, 08:59 PM   #270
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Default Wing Issue ??? Again ???

Originally Posted by theapplepi3.14 View Post
This is cool. I think if you are to make a successful flight however, you will need
to stiffen up the wing. I reference 7:27 as evidence. For the next flight you could bring two go-pro cameras aboard
and add streamers to the wings in select areas (unless of course you are sure the problem will not occur again).
Then you can see if the problem is structural, aerodynamical, or the interaction between the two. I hope you don't
have to though. Good luck!
Anti-Neutonian:

You've lost me. What is 7:27 and what does it have to do with this project? I realize you have come into this at
about the middle of its completion.

Wait a minute...you must be referencing Bernie's wing folding up when it stretched his rubber bands further than
they needed to stretch. That's a different model...in Lost Wages, Nevada. Thanks for joining in this madness! I'm
speaking for a lot of B-47 nuts participating in this thead and our project.

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Old 05-22-2015, 06:01 AM   #271
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FYI - the rubber bands were fine. One of the "J" hooks pulled loose from the wood. The rebuild is proceeding nicely.


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Old 05-22-2015, 12:46 PM   #272
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Default Rubber Band Fixture Broke

Originally Posted by Capt G View Post
FYI - the rubber bands were fine. One of the "J" hooks pulled loose from the wood. The rebuild is proceeding nicely.
Bernie and I have spoken on a couple of occassions during his rebuild. He never mentioned a
J-hook pulling loose; definatley accounts for the slack of the wing retention.

He is supposed to have new canopies soon and back into the air. We are using Bob Violett's
T-33 canopies on our 1/8.7669th.

Printed cockpit components soon...

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Old 05-22-2015, 04:34 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
Anti-Neutonian:

You've lost me. What is 7:27 and what does it have to do with this project? I realize you have come into this at
about the middle of its completion.

Wait a minute...you must be referencing Bernie's wing folding up when it stretched his rubber bands further than
they needed to stretch. That's a different model...in Lost Wages, Nevada. Thanks for joining in this madness! I'm
speaking for a lot of B-47 nuts participating in this thead and our project.
I was actually referencing a time in your video where the plane crashed. The wings were wiggling a bit when it hit a slight bump

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Old 05-22-2015, 08:28 PM   #274
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Bernie's wing was wiggling more than a wee bit

Its repaired and we look forward to receiving another video from Bernie
where-in the flight is like that of his B-52's. Mean while back at printing
and milling.

The third thread is a lot more interesting than this one at this time

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69840

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Old 09-04-2015, 05:38 PM   #275
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Hi Guys,

Just noticed there were 13 of you reading the thread as I was gathering up the last
of the analog drawings before we combine with CAD double auditing (AKA as double
doubting ourselves then we're into CNC cutting balance of fuselage w/cutouts for
airfoil and internal truss.

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