HE 178 plans?

[pattern14]

Does anyone know where i could un-earth a set of plans for a Heinkel HE 178? I plan to build it entirely from balsa and silkspan, with a 50/55mm EDF, making it as light and moderately powered as is practical. Not that i've gone off EPP or anything, I'd just like a change For those unfamiliar with the plane, it was the first OFFICIAL Jet powered aircraft to make a controlled, powered flight using a turbojet engine. Some have erroneously claimed that the Henri Coanda built bi-plane of 1910 was the first "Jet", but it was simply a turbine propellor, or in other words, a ducted fan. It was powered by a 50hp clerget internal combustion engine, and flew once, basically uncontrolled, crashing and burning on its' first attempt at flight. The first turbojet; i.e, using turbine compressors and igniting a fuel air mixture in the exhaust chamber was successfully started by Sir Frank Whittle in 1937, with the German version by the Heinkel/ Von Ohain firing up a few months later. There were other "claims" of jet flights of course, but the He 178 was the first officially recognised true jet powered flight on August 27th, 1939. The He 280 twin jet powered Jet fighter, with ejector seat and tricycle under carriage, started flight trials on April 5th, 1941. The Gloster E.28/39 did not even fly until may 15th, 1941. And it wasn't until October 1942 that the Bell airacomet actually flew in the USA. So the significance of the HE 178 warrants a set of plans some where. Just need some plans to stick some balsa ribs and formers to............

[BroncoSquid]

Intresting subject, couldn't find plans. I did find quite a few 3 views though, If you are up to the challange of true scratchbuilding. It has been done before....
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...=0CDwQrQMwCTgo

[Bill G]

Michael I would think this one would be fairly easy to draw up, although it would be nice to have a 3-view with accurate formers. One of them appears to show the former profiles, but they're all on the front view. There are photos of a full scale repro however that show some very interesting details, such as how the front to behind cocpit area formers are triangulated a bit, with the remainder of the fuse being nearly round until near the tail. Many times I've built from plans and drawings with slightly inaccurate formers that required some shaping/padding at the stringer fitting stage. That said, I would have no issue with just drawing up my own and correcting a few shaping issues as the build progresses, versus building from a plan. I've come close to starting on the 178 a number of times. After building the Dayton Wright RB1 retracts, which are similar, I had even more interest.

This guy's full scale replica framing is interesting, as it shows the fuse profiles:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/floydstearns/5453760870/

[pattern14]

Thanks for the input Bill and Broncosquid I managed to buy a 1/72 scale plastic kit from an Eastern european model company, and also picked up a book from amazon on the HE280, with a section on the He 178. It shows some good pics from different angles, and combined with the plastic kit, as a "3 D" view, should be enough to get started. It is a very straight forward airframe, and does not appear to present any building complexities. I thought maybe "Jetex" (defunct for many years now, and replaced by Rapier) may have had a set of plans for one, so I'll see what I can find out from them. This will be a slow build over winter and spring, and not my usual "lets get this flying this afternoon" . There is something I really miss about gluing and pinning ribs to spars over greaseproof paper, to let dry overnight. My initial thoughts are to build a balsa tube as the EDF duct, and then attach the wings and tail feathers to establish the correct COG, so I can work out where to locate the EDF unit/battery etc. I am going to do my best to eliminate dead weight such as ballast, as to enable it to fly with the lowest possible wing loading. I have a set of ultra light new/old unused parkflyer trainer type wings (bought as spares, but still in the plastic bag) that I may use as a prototype to test the power system first.....more thoughts later....cheers

[Bill G]

Originally Posted by pattern14

Thanks for the input Bill and Broncosquid I managed to buy a 1/72 scale plastic kit from an Eastern european model company, and also picked up a book from amazon on the HE280, with a section on the He 178. It shows some good pics from different angles, and combined with the plastic kit, as a "3 D" view, should be enough to get started. It is a very straight forward airframe, and does not appear to present any building complexities. I thought maybe "Jetex" (defunct for many years now, and replaced by Rapier) may have had a set of plans for one, so I'll see what I can find out from them. This will be a slow build over winter and spring, and not my usual "lets get this flying this afternoon" . There is something I really miss about gluing and pinning ribs to spars over greaseproof paper, to let dry overnight. My initial thoughts are to build a balsa tube as the EDF duct, and then attach the wings and tail feathers to establish the correct COG, so I can work out where to locate the EDF unit/battery etc. I am going to do my best to eliminate dead weight such as ballast, as to enable it to fly with the lowest possible wing loading. I have a set of ultra light new/old unused parkflyer trainer type wings (bought as spares, but still in the plastic bag) that I may use as a prototype to test the power system first.....more thoughts later....cheers

Some of the tiny 1/72 models are quite accurate. I bought an ME262 for that purpose, when I wanted a good ME262 that I could have in hand, to view the overall proportions.
I noticed on the Jetex forums that someone had build one, but the attachment was no longer there. It would be nice if people would put whatever they have on free plan sites like outerzone, since there is basically no money in plans anymore, and they should be used to promote building. A very basic plan is what motivated me to get started on the AG Crusader build that I'm working on now.
On the tube idea, a very light balsa tube would be a good idea. If I were to build something like this now, I'd probably use lightweight 1/32" balsa sheet or very thin millage sheet plastic for any ducting. I even started using rolled paper for outlet tubes to reduce weight, although it can collapse when used for intakes. The darn ductweight using heavier sheet plastic or anything but the thinnest cardboard rocket tube stock is a real killer, which are two materials I've used in the past. My first thought of a 55mm EDF setup would be weight. I think that's much of the reason the larger 64mm fans became so popular, as weight was not so critical with the potential thrust increase. Admittedly the 55mm jets I've built would doubtfully fly, or fly very well, if they were not equipped with powerful outrunners or long can 20mm inrunners such as the old Himax 2025-5300, and they're not terribly heavy. I could actually see myself going against my cardinal "if it's metal covered, it has to be sheeted" rule, and building something like this with a 1/32" sheeted fuse of course, but only partially sheeted wing to reduce weight.

[baz49exe]

Originally Posted by pattern14

Thanks for the input Bill and Broncosquid I managed to buy a 1/72 scale plastic kit from an Eastern european model company, and also picked up a book from amazon on the HE280, with a section on the He 178.

I really like the idea of building using a plastic kit as reference Michael.
It would be so easy to cut paper fuselage templates to fit the kit and then enlarge them using a photocopier wouldn't it?
How did I know you'd come come up with another very unusual model and another Luft jet as well???

[pattern14]

Hi Bill and Barry; I somehow knew that the dyed in the wool scratchbuilders would come up with something. The former owner of Jetex.org transferred ownership back to someone in the UK, but the forum is no longer active. They stopped (banned?) the import of Czech made Rapier ( Jetex's successor) into the USA, so rocket powered model aircraft are essentially "dead", to quote the previous owner. He said that many plans are still available, and that the new owner puts out a monthly news letter, so I'll contact him next. The He 178 was built as a lightweight balsa rocket powered free flight model many years ago, and flown successfully, so there is hope for me yet. I'm keen to stick to the 50/55mm EDF size, as the outlet/inlet are comparatively small on this plane, and I have done something similar once before, in 1975. Cox 049 with a home made impellor inside a Mig 15 that I got the plans out of a library book, but that is another story....

[Bill G]

Originally Posted by pattern14

Hi Bill and Barry; I somehow knew that the dyed in the wool scratchbuilders would come up with something. The former owner of Jetex.org transferred ownership back to someone in the UK, but the forum is no longer active. They stopped (banned?) the import of Czech made Rapier ( Jetex's successor) into the USA, so rocket powered model aircraft are essentially "dead", to quote the previous owner. He said that many plans are still available, and that the new owner puts out a monthly news letter, so I'll contact him next. The He 178 was built as a lightweight balsa rocket powered free flight model many years ago, and flown successfully, so there is hope for me yet. I'm keen to stick to the 50/55mm EDF size, as the outlet/inlet are comparatively small on this plane, and I have done something similar once before, in 1975. Cox 049 with a home made impellor inside a Mig 15 that I got the plans out of a library book, but that is another story....

Hope the plans come to fruition. With the small outlet size, a 50mm Microfan with a long can 370 inrunner of 5000-6000kv would be a powerful option on 3s. I have yet to fly a twin that has the setup with the 6000kv Hyperion Y22-S motors. You have a good point that the jet has a small outlet and would not use a large fan, unless made far off scale. As for intake, the landing gear openings make for a really good and also scale cheater intake. Better than having to cut a hole in the bottom, like on my FW225 Flitzer.

[pattern14]

Thanks for the motor suggestion there Bill. I have used other Hyperions in my EDF's and always found them very good quality, although they are a lot more expensive than the usual HK type stuff. The landing gear cheater hole option is a good one, although the challenge of building the unique gear retracts would be irresistable if I had a runway instead of a potato paddock to take off from. Just found a lead to some bloke in New Zealand who built a gas turbine version a few years back, so I'll contact him as well...something will turn up. The rocket powered He 176 would be a nice project for my Estes rocket motors as well, as I've done a bit more work on my rocket assist for the Ar234, plus have a 1/2 completed R4M with launch rail under the bench...cheers

[Bill G]

Originally Posted by pattern14

Thanks for the motor suggestion there Bill. I have used other Hyperions in my EDF's and always found them very good quality, although they are a lot more expensive than the usual HK type stuff. The landing gear cheater hole option is a good one, although the challenge of building the unique gear retracts would be irresistable if I had a runway instead of a potato paddock to take off from. Just found a lead to some bloke in New Zealand who built a gas turbine version a few years back, so I'll contact him as well...something will turn up. The rocket powered He 176 would be a nice project for my Estes rocket motors as well, as I've done a bit more work on my rocket assist for the Ar234, plus have a 1/2 completed R4M with launch rail under the bench...cheers

I'd love to see the retracts work. Even when retracted, the openings will still leak air and can help with the intake.
The setup I used for the Dayton Wright worked well for similar retracts. I got the idea from a diagram found on Wattflyer. That style of retractable gear is really interesting to build.