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Old 02-03-2015, 08:32 AM   #1
wannathrmal
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Default Using a brushless motor for a generator

I want to use a brushless motor for a generator, Example; Turnigy G110 Brushless Outrunner 210kv
As I understand I will get approximately 1 volt output for every 210 RPMs on the shaft. I am testing a 800kv motor from you and I am seeing 2.85 vDC with apx 2000 rpms at the shaft.
A few questions;
1. what amperage/watts can I expect with a target voltage output of 13.5 volts
2. Will these motors last when used in this way
Thanks
Bob
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Old 02-03-2015, 08:51 AM   #2
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I actually didn't think you could use a brushless motor that way. Brushed, yes, but not brushless.

But I am very far from being an expert.

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Old 02-03-2015, 08:59 AM   #3
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Brushless motors can be used as generators and will survive as long as the bearings last if not over-driven.

You'd need to make a bridge rectifier to convert 3-phase AC into a DC output. ALL generated electricity is AC and must be rectified in some manner, either by use of a commutator and brushes or by some electronic method. After the rectifier you'd need a capacitor bank to level the output. (for your purpose I'd put most of the capacitors before the regulator)

Note if you open up a computer power supply you'll find a lot of capacitors. These are to level out the rectified DC after converting the 110 (USA) or 220 (most of Europe) VAC into the 12V and 5V used by the computer.

You can expect appx 80% of the and amperage out that you would have to put in to turn the recommended prop whatever rpm you are making the motor turn.

Either before or after rectifying the output you need a voltage regulator of some sort. Dimension Engineering makes appropriate DC regulators.

It easy to just hook up an incandescent light bulb and light it up with your motor as a generator... They work fine on AC or DC of the correct voltage range.
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Old 02-03-2015, 09:11 AM   #4
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Thanks fhhuber
Some more info. I have an 800kv motor connected through a rectifier/regulator. Using a drill (apx 2000 rpms) to run the motor/gen we are seeing 2.8x volts and something above 2000ma (my 10 amp meter is broke so I am looking for an amn meter/shunt) and we can directly turn a 3.8 volt drill motor.
What I need to know, before I buy a bigger motor, is what my amps/wattage will be with the larger motor ie Brushless Outrunner 210kv
With 3000 rpm's as my target shaft speed, and plenty of torque available, can I expect 14.8 volts and ? amps! I hope to get 10-12 amps out. Is this probable?

Thanks

Bob
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Old 02-03-2015, 09:23 AM   #5
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The brushless motors we use are not wound to be able to be used as efficient generators anywhere near 3000 rpm. you'd need to use a gear drive to increase the low rpm of the drill into the higher rpm the brushless motor (generator) needs.

Consider your 210kV motor... It expects 9S LPo or about 33 volts to produce about 6500 actual RPM under load.
You'd want to turn it 6000 to 7000 rpm, producing 30-35 volts AC out and then rectify it and regulate it down to the desired 13.5v.

Turning that big motor the right RPM it might be able to deliver up to 150 amps at 12v after rectifying and regulating.

Turning it slower it will be well outside the range for efficient generation and while it would deliver lower voltage and lower current you won't hurt anything... but I can't really predict how much voltage or current. Someone with the right formulae could though...
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Old 02-03-2015, 10:14 AM   #6
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Default fhhuber

Thanks again.
Ok, with a input shaft speed of 200 (not using a drill, my input power although slow is very high power) I would need a 30:1 gear ratio. Is such a beast available?
There may be a chance to increase the input rpm to 12-1300 but it means re-thinking my input strategy, so then we would be looking at 6:1 which is probably doable.

Bob
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Old 02-03-2015, 05:08 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by wannathrmal View Post
I want to use a brushless motor for a generator, Example; Turnigy G110 Brushless Outrunner 210kv
As I understand I will get approximately 1 volt output for every 210 RPMs on the shaft. I am testing a 800kv motor from you and I am seeing 2.85 vDC with apx 2000 rpms at the shaft.
A few questions;
1. what amperage/watts can I expect with a target voltage output of 13.5 volts
2. Will these motors last when used in this way
Thanks
Bob

Out of curiosity, what is your application? What voltage, and what current do you need?

These brushless motors are three phase units, and do not have much of a voltage output at low RPM's. You need 5000 or 10,000 RPM to get much voltage and out of them, depending on the motor KV and physical size anyhow.

For making DC out of this, you need a six diode three phase bridge rectifier, preferably with shottky diodes for a very low forward voltage drop.

To get reasonable voltage out of one of these motors might require rewinding it, another very different topic.

Three Phase Alternator/motor
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2337244

Brushless motor information
http://www.rcgroups.com/electric-mot...struction-361/

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Old 02-03-2015, 06:45 PM   #8
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The rectifier has been done. You can buy a "full wave rectifier chip" put one between each of the 3 wires coming out of the motor. You just have to select the rectifier for the power output of the motor.

http://cleangreenenergyzone.com/wind...net-dc-motors/

In fact:

Brushless DC Motor: These motors are the preferred choice of motors for producing electricity. Thanks to the moving magnet unit in the permanent coil, it easily produces electricity. Producing high efficiency and continuous electricity are the main features of brushless DC motors.
It is one of the most easily found motor types for those that want to build a wind generator at home. Wind energy is converted into rotation energy with the help of the blades installed on the edges of the motor and then converted into electricity with the help of the motor.
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Old 02-03-2015, 09:04 PM   #9
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I am making a hydro generator to use on my sailboat. I do Leadership programs that take us out for 5-14 days of sailing in late fall and early spring. As we are away from dock for that long power is a problem. There is a few products on the market but the most successful one is apex 4000$ and is not user serviceable.
Our normal sailing speed is around 6 knots, with a 10' pitch impeller we should be able to get 1000-1200 rpm's from the impeller shaft.
As a minimum I would like to get 10 amps at 14 volts out of this. More would be great of course. I am working on the impeller now.

The rectifier/voltage is from an atv and rated at 1200 watts continuous so that is good. I can go up to 40 volts in with no problem.

I will make a composite shell/frame for this unit and already have a water tight seal for the shaft. I an also looking at a 90 geared elbow to keep the motor out of the lower unit for better longevity.

I hope that gives you a better understanding of my request.
And thanks for the input form all.

Bob
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Old 02-03-2015, 10:03 PM   #10
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I got a 130 amp alt from a ford taurus at the junkyard for $13. It needs a speed of about 5000rpm shaft speed to create 90 amps at 14.3v's.

Id think a simple belt and pulley system could really gear up the speed and would be reliable, but im not sure you would ever get enough speed out of it to produce over 12.6v's to make it enough to charge a battery or significant load.

I know you can't always depend on a solar panel, but id think a cheap solar panel and one or two deep discharge batteries would create plenty of power if you only need 10 amps for a few days.

The alt could also be utilized with a small 5hp generator motor similar to what denny uses to charge his models at the field.

slow stock prop reversal. it flies! easily! 543 watt dual motor bipe slow stick. push-me-pull-you. 242 watt 3 channel slow stick. 365 watt mini ultra stick. 415 watt mini contender. 810 watt ultra stick .25e. 220 watt alpha 450 sport (retired).
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Old 02-03-2015, 11:07 PM   #11
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You can mount the motor to the top of the mast pointed straight up and put a wind turbine on it... That way the motor won't be in the water. Minimal shielding from rain needed can be done in the way you make the wind turbine. This style doesn't need to weathervane... so no issues with running the wires direct.

http://www.treehugger.com/wind-technology/build-diy-wind-turbine-30.html


Note that there are a lot of ways to make simpler wind turbines...

And the wind turbine doesn't depend on the boat moving.
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Old 02-04-2015, 12:54 AM   #12
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Default Sailboat Alternator setup

Originally Posted by wannathrmal View Post
I am making a hydro generator to use on my sailboat. I do Leadership programs that take us out for 5-14 days of sailing in late fall and early spring. As we are away from dock for that long power is a problem. There is a few products on the market but the most successful one is apex 4000$ and is not user serviceable.
Our normal sailing speed is around 6 knots, with a 10' pitch impeller we should be able to get 1000-1200 rpm's from the impeller shaft.
As a minimum I would like to get 10 amps at 14 volts out of this. More would be great of course. I am working on the impeller now.

The rectifier/voltage is from an atv and rated at 1200 watts continuous so that is good. I can go up to 40 volts in with no problem.

I will make a composite shell/frame for this unit and already have a water tight seal for the shaft. I an also looking at a 90 geared elbow to keep the motor out of the lower unit for better longevity.

I hope that gives you a better understanding of my request.
And thanks for the input form all.

Bob

OK, we're making progress.

IMHO, you're never going to get the voltage and amps you need out of a brushless motor, unless you go to $$$$ motors with a real low KV. And, you'd still need a voltage regulator to charge any lead acid batteries.

The best way would be to go with a standard automotive alternator, belt driven from your propeller shaft. These Alternators do require a 12 Volt Battery to get them started, even a cheap lawn tractor battery will work just fine.

One thing of note with these alternators. They will start generating power at real low RPM's. And while doing so, they require a LOT of torque to generate at that low RPM. It might be a problem, where your alternator stalls out your prop, and it only turns really slow. As the alternator RPM increases, the torque decreases, while pulling the same Amps and Watts out of the alternator.

It would be best to use an alternator with the ability to shut it down with a simple toggle switch. Add to that, if your storage batteries are really down, again the alternator might take to much torque for your water prop to turn over.

The way out of that would be to rig up some 0.5 Ohm 25 watt power resistors between your alternator positive output and your battery. That way, if your alternator bogs down your prop drive, you can switch in a couple of those power resistors to limit the Ampere output of the alternator so things work OK.

If you go this route, I can provide wiring, along with an alternator that will work. I bought mine brand new at a cost of $85 or so.

Another option would be to rig up a gas engine alternator combination, but you might have issues with carrying gasoline on your sailboat.

Here is how I set up that Harbor Freight/Alternator system. If you substitute your propeller drive for that HF engine, this is what you'd be doing for your sailboat.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...1#post30611648

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Old 02-04-2015, 04:49 AM   #13
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My car had the same style alt your running Denny. It put out less then 25 amps at idle (approx 5000 rpm alt speed). The 3g alt i upgraded to puts out 90 amps at around 4000rpm's, and pulls up to 160 amps at anything over 8000rpms. You can also get double ribbed v-belt pulleys that might help with your slippage and belt wear.

slow stock prop reversal. it flies! easily! 543 watt dual motor bipe slow stick. push-me-pull-you. 242 watt 3 channel slow stick. 365 watt mini ultra stick. 415 watt mini contender. 810 watt ultra stick .25e. 220 watt alpha 450 sport (retired).
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Old 02-04-2015, 05:08 AM   #14
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You'd be surprised how easy it is to get good voltage and current..

Take any brushless motor you would normally use with 3S and bridge the phazes with automotive light bulbs. Face the thing into the wind with appx 2X normal size prop on it. Anything above 5 mph should light up the 3 bulbs. When you get the RPM too high the bulbs will act as fuses.
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Old 02-04-2015, 05:29 AM   #15
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The Watt&Sea generator is the ideal setup http://www.wattandsea.com/en

I want to make something that is close but doesn't cost 3500$.

The W&S uses a hydraulic pump, the impeller shaft turns the pump, the pressure turns the vanes pumps to turn the shaft of a brushless motor (multiple ones for the race editions) simple and elegant. But, very expensive, not too reliable yet and not user serviceable. You can replace the FRU's ie the hydro pump (1600$) and the impeller. Now for many years folks have been using electric trolling motors to do this at low outputs so the W&S is just a better implementation of this idea. Actually it is a great product but I want to make a unit that works, is not too expensive and is totally user serviceable.

My eventual budget for each unit is 500$, I can make the frame/shell for $100 (composites are a professional hobby of mine)
The rectifier/voltage regulator is $25
The lower unit shaft/gear unit is ???
The Brushless motor is $50 for the Turnigy and for the final unit I would likely go up in value/cost (although the Turnigy may work)

The boat already has a charge controller that I can set to control the amps out of the unit.

One problem is that when sailing my current draw for instruments and fridges is about 10 AH so I need to replace this amount while sailing. We try not to use the motor during these programs so after a few days my 240ah house banks are exhausted and I have to run the motor or generator. And then to recharge the house banks the motor or generator must run for hours.

On average we try to sail for 10-12 hours a day with at least one 24 hour sail, and in the fall and spring in the Adriatic the winds are usually pretty good (ever hear of the Bora ) so we tend to cover a lot of miles over a lot of hours. Last year we averaged 300 nautical miles per week with 50 hours sailing per week.

Also in December I skipper deliveries from the Med to the Caribbean and sail for 3-4 weeks and power is always an issue. Running the engine for 2-3 hours a day is noisy and hot, solar panels tend not to be as efficient because of the boat rolling/sun angle in December and a wind generator has problems because of the apparent wind being so far back.

A water generator..... moving along on a broad reach (tradewind sailing) at 6 knots for days on end generating 120 watts of power means never having to run the engine and saving your limited fuel for when the wind is light.

So, now you know what I am trying to accomplish. The Belt/alternator is what I have made in the past, heavy and not "elegant".

Bob
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Old 02-04-2015, 06:09 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by wannathrmal View Post
The Watt&Sea generator is the ideal setup http://www.wattandsea.com/en

I want to make something that is close but doesn't cost 3500$.

The W&S uses a hydraulic pump, the impeller shaft turns the pump, the pressure turns the vanes pumps to turn the shaft of a brushless motor (multiple ones for the race editions) simple and elegant. But, very expensive, not too reliable yet and not user serviceable. You can replace the FRU's ie the hydro pump (1600$) and the impeller. Now for many years folks have been using electric trolling motors to do this at low outputs so the W&S is just a better implementation of this idea. Actually it is a great product but I want to make a unit that works, is not too expensive and is totally user serviceable.

My eventual budget for each unit is 500$, I can make the frame/shell for $100 (composites are a professional hobby of mine)
The rectifier/voltage regulator is $25
The lower unit shaft/gear unit is ???
The Brushless motor is $50 for the Turnigy and for the final unit I would likely go up in value/cost (although the Turnigy may work)

The boat already has a charge controller that I can set to control the amps out of the unit.

One problem is that when sailing my current draw for instruments and fridges is about 10 AH so I need to replace this amount while sailing. We try not to use the motor during these programs so after a few days my 240ah house banks are exhausted and I have to run the motor or generator. And then to recharge the house banks the motor or generator must run for hours.

On average we try to sail for 10-12 hours a day with at least one 24 hour sail, and in the fall and spring in the Adriatic the winds are usually pretty good (ever hear of the Bora ) so we tend to cover a lot of miles over a lot of hours. Last year we averaged 300 nautical miles per week with 50 hours sailing per week.

Also in December I skipper deliveries from the Med to the Caribbean and sail for 3-4 weeks and power is always an issue. Running the engine for 2-3 hours a day is noisy and hot, solar panels tend not to be as efficient because of the boat rolling/sun angle in December and a wind generator has problems because of the apparent wind being so far back.

A water generator..... moving along on a broad reach (tradewind sailing) at 6 knots for days on end generating 120 watts of power means never having to run the engine and saving your limited fuel for when the wind is light.

So, now you know what I am trying to accomplish. The Belt/alternator is what I have made in the past, heavy and not "elegant".

Bob
I'd think the electric trolling motor would be a good way to go on this setup.

Do I understand correctly that you have tried to hook up an automotive alternator to a prop drive in the past? IMHO, that would be the most likely system that could be made to work out well.

I don't know if there are any small 5 HP or so outboard motors with a fried engine available at a cheap price. With the lower unit and its gearbox and propeller, this provides a vertical shaft that gets everything above the water.

Then, you could pull the engine off of the prop drive, and replace that engine with the alternator. Maybe even belt drive the alternator for more RPM on the alternator. Then put the hood over everything. People would think you have a back up trolling motor!

Might be the prop would be turning in the wrong direction, unless you could face it forward But, it should still work.

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Old 02-04-2015, 04:27 PM   #17
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I've used those down in the West-Indies delivering Sailboats from Florida, (50,000 miles offshore so far )they drag your speed down a lot unless your boats 35+ feet, solar and wind buggers work best, you can make a wind bugger from a small starter motor and a 4 or 5 blade radiator fan and a diode,,, good luck, heres my 30' clipper sloop
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Old 02-04-2015, 08:47 PM   #18
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Yep, in a smaller boat the drag is a problem but when you go to 45'+ not so much. and as for a wind generator I have tried them and when you are on a broad reach the apparent wind is insufficient to generate enough power so when you are in the trades it is a problem. Hence the questions. Again check out the watt&sea, great units just too expensive.

I am zeroing in on the needed components but every time I find a solution another issue pops up. Right now I can use an outrunner to get the needed power at the rpms at the shaft but how in the heck do I mount it inside a shell and cool, an innrunner would work better but theKV ratings are too high.

I will keep at it! Rome wasn't built in a day and popcorn won't pop itself!
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Old 02-04-2015, 10:05 PM   #19
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IMHO using a Solar Sail will be the easiest way to make electricity, the new G Cell is flexible and can be attached to your Sails, Cabin House or Deck, and you eliminate any water Drag from using a Hydro Generator.

The sail features thin-film solar cells that charge the 200lb battery that runs the boat's motor. The solar cells are arranged in twelve panels integrated into each side of the main sail.

http://www.celsias.com/article/polar...st-solar-sail/

http://gcell.com/


http://www.flexsolarcells.com/PowerF...lar-Panels.php






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Old 02-05-2015, 08:48 AM   #20
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It just seems to me that using a Hydro Generator is Old School, With moving parts to wear out and the added Drag to the boat, when flexible High output solar cells will get the same job done at about 1/3 of the cost or less, then using a Hydro Generator, Just my 2 cents worth.

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Old 02-05-2015, 10:47 AM   #21
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He said late fall and early spring. That means not a lot of power from the sun and short day in most parts of the world. Solar energy is all well and good but you do need strong direct sunlight to get decent power output.
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Old 02-05-2015, 08:15 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
He said late fall and early spring. That means not a lot of power from the sun and short day in most parts of the world. Solar energy is all well and good but you do need strong direct sunlight to get decent power output.
The G Cell is a New 3rd generation solar Cell that works with low light conditions, the older solar cells needed strong sun light to operate.

Advantages of GCell – the smart choice

GCell Dye Sensitized Solar Cells (DSSC) are a smart choice for energy harvesting when integrating a solar module into an electrical device using a rechargeable battery or super capacitor.
Superior low light performance
Suitable for shaded and diffuse light locations
Works in a wide range of lighting conditions

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Old 01-20-2017, 12:51 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
Brushless motors can be used as generators and will survive as long as the bearings last if not over-driven.

You'd need to make a bridge rectifier to convert 3-phase AC into a DC output. ALL generated electricity is AC and must be rectified in some manner, either by use of a commutator and brushes or by some electronic method. After the rectifier you'd need a capacitor bank to level the output. (for your purpose I'd put most of the capacitors before the regulator)

Note if you open up a computer power supply you'll find a lot of capacitors. These are to level out the rectified DC after converting the 110 (USA) or 220 (most of Europe) VAC into the 12V and 5V used by the computer.

You can expect appx 80% of the and amperage out that you would have to put in to turn the recommended prop whatever rpm you are making the motor turn.

Either before or after rectifying the output you need a voltage regulator of some sort. Dimension Engineering makes appropriate DC regulators.

It easy to just hook up an incandescent light bulb and light it up with your motor as a generator... They work fine on AC or DC of the correct voltage range.

I'm also planning to use a Brushless Motor on a current project I'm on and could do with a little technical help..!

I've just bought this Brushless Motor GARTT ML5010 300KV Brushless Motor For T960 T810 RC Multirotor Quadcopter MT-092, for the job and wanted to know, based on it's spec, what power this would produce at say 10'000 RPM, as I need to link it up to a compatible rectifier, the rectifier I've been looking at is this one Vishay VS-36MT100, 3-phase Bridge Rectifier, 35A 1000V, 5-Pin D 63

Would I need anything else, as I noticed someone mentioning connecting caps to the rectifier..?

As I am a newbie, I'm unable to post links or pictures, so to check the spec of the items I mention, please copy and paste in google search..!

Thanks..
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