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Old 01-13-2017, 10:18 PM   #51
davidmelville
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Thanks guys.

First you disagree on either all heading gain stopping or just surface altered . . .

I was not looking for throttle control but rather the danger of 'nudging' the rudder and cancelling heading gain when using throttle. It seems to be safe it would be best to leave heading gain off yaw to avoid moving the throttle from disabling heading gain.

Could one alter the Priority on the yaw to soften its connection.

So guys does all heading stop or just the surface touched?

Once again thanks for your replies,
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:27 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
Again you need to understand the difference between Conventional Rate Gain and Heading Gain. Heading gain is only active when that specific stick axis is Centered. Example if you input say Elevator, does not disable Heading Gain in Ailerons and Rudder, only Elevator.
That isn't my understanding, but I'm happy to be corrected. I believe heading gain is deactivated for all 3 axes if any stick is moved off center (apart from throttle).
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:58 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by davidmelville View Post
Thanks guys.

First you disagree on either all heading gain stopping or just surface altered . . .

I was not looking for throttle control but rather the danger of 'nudging' the rudder and cancelling heading gain when using throttle. It seems to be safe it would be best to leave heading gain off yaw to avoid moving the throttle from disabling heading gain.

Could one alter the Priority on the yaw to soften its connection.

So guys does all heading stop or just the surface touched?

Once again thanks for your replies,
David, I think you are better off ignoring heading gain altogether and using just rate gain. My personal view is that heading gain is more gimmicky than useful, and can actually get you into trouble if you don't know what it's doing.

I just did a quick bench test to confirm that any stick movement deactivates heading gain in all 3 axes. Even more scary, the surfaces whose stick was not moved maintain the position they were in at the instant heading gain was deactivated! You therefore have to move all sticks to re-align the control surfaces to the stick position. Perhaps you and Dereck could perform the same bench test to see if your results match mine, in case it is a firmware thing.

I'm using an AR636.
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:58 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by splinters View Post
That isn't my understanding, but I'm happy to be corrected. I believe heading gain is deactivated for all 3 axes if any stick is moved off center (apart from throttle).
Now you have me questioning myself. I am not sure.

Here is my experience. In a Knife Edge when I use the Elevator to turn, The plane does not drop the nose or need Rudder input to Hold the nose up. I cannot answer if that is because Rudder Convention Gain or Heading Gain holds it up or not. If in fact it is Conventional Gain is doing it, speaks loudly Conventional Gain should be used with Heading Gain.

Still learning after two years.
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Old 01-13-2017, 11:15 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
Now you have me questioning myself. I am not sure.

Here is my experience. In a Knife Edge when I use the Elevator to turn, The plane does not drop the nose or need Rudder input to Hold the nose up. I cannot answer if that is because Rudder Convention Gain or Heading Gain holds it up or not. If in fact it is Conventional Gain is doing it, speaks loudly Conventional Gain should be used with Heading Gain.

Still learning after two years.
Dereck, the answer lies in the fact that deactivating heading gain does not re-center the control surface. So in your knife edge, when you move the elevator, the rudder stays at the position it was in at the instant heading gain was deactivated. At least this is my observation with my AR636. If you then brought the plane back to level flight without touching the rudder stick, the rudder will still be offset as it was in knife edge. You would need to nudge the rudder stick to reset it. Try a quick bench test, rotating the model while heading gain is set, then watching the behaviour of the control surfaces when you move one of the sticks.
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Old 01-13-2017, 11:26 PM   #56
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Hi Derick and Splinters, very fascinating and when the wind drops locally I'm going to use my Graupner V Venture to test as I can quickly flip back to my safe (mode 1).

Let me throw into the pot that on my Delta Ray, which I know is safe/AS3X, hands off in mode 1 or press and hold panic button holds the plane in landing posture and one brings it in on throttle. Wagging the throttle (read careless movement) does not break the landing posture.

As I mentioned I guess a field test us the only answer to . . .
Q1 Is it all heading gains or just the touched heading gain that stops?

Thanks
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Old 01-14-2017, 02:45 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by davidmelville View Post
Let me throw into the pot that on my Delta Ray, which I know is safe/AS3X, hands off in mode 1 or press and hold panic button holds the plane in landing posture and one brings it in on throttle. Wagging the throttle (read careless movement) does not break the landing posture.

As I mentioned I guess a field test us the only answer to . . .
Q1 Is it all heading gains or just the touched heading gain that stops?

Thanks
Safe mode receivers are completely different animals in their operation. From what I've been able to investigate, they use only rate gain for the flight modes, but play some clever tricks in the firmware with heading gain to accomplish panic mode recovery and also limit the flight envelope in the typical Beginner and Intermediate modes.

As per my previous post (#53), all heading gains are deactivated when a stick is held off center.
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Old 02-04-2017, 06:01 PM   #58
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Hi,
I need help setting up a Flyzone Seawind. I'm putting an AR7350 receiver in it, and have a DX9.
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Old 02-04-2017, 09:30 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by splinters View Post
Dereck, the answer lies in the fact that deactivating heading gain does not re-center the control surface.
Hey Splinters I had to do some routine maintenance today. Pull Pull Rudder cables got loose.

Anyway I turned on the radio and did some experiments on Heading Gain. You can do this yourself and confirm. Disable the motor of course, select mode that uses heading gain, advance throttle to activate Gyros in a static position. Then change the plane attitude of the pane and observe all three axis control surfaces.

I have confirmed moving any single axis, does NOT deactivate the other two axis. Only the one you move off center.

Try it. IMHO is a very good thing.
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Old 02-04-2017, 09:30 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by TimMarkham View Post
Hi,
I need help setting up a Flyzone Seawind. I'm putting an AR7350 receiver in it, and have a DX9.
OK so what do you need help with?
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Old 02-05-2017, 07:06 PM   #61
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I never had a AS3x receiver. I need to know how to plug in things, and how to program it for this plane. I thank you much.
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Old 02-05-2017, 07:27 PM   #62
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Tim I will help you as much as I can, but to get set up just watch the 16 videos from Spektrum

Here is Step 1:
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Old 02-06-2017, 03:05 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
Hey Splinters I had to do some routine maintenance today. Pull Pull Rudder cables got loose.

Anyway I turned on the radio and did some experiments on Heading Gain. You can do this yourself and confirm. Disable the motor of course, select mode that uses heading gain, advance throttle to activate Gyros in a static position. Then change the plane attitude of the pane and observe all three axis control surfaces.

I have confirmed moving any single axis, does NOT deactivate the other two axis. Only the one you move off center.

Try it. IMHO is a very good thing.
Hi Dereck, that is very interesting, as it doesn't match my observations.

My bench test:
If I have heading gain active, holding the plane in level flight, then move it to a knife edge attitude, the ailerons will be deflected, trying to return to level flight. If I then move the rudder stick off center, the ailerons maintain their position, trying to return to level flight. If I now slowly rotate the plane to level flight while keeping the rudder stick off center, the ailerons do not move at all. The plane is now in a level attitude with the ailerons still deflected. In other words, heading gain is not active for any surface as I rotate the plane while holding a stick off center. If heading gain was still active, the ailerons would have moved back to neutral.

Are you saying that while holding the rudder stick off center with heading gain active, the other surfaces continue to take corrective action while you change the plane's attitude? And you have no rate gain set? If so, then your receiver is behaving quite differently to mine and will be interesting to discover what is the reason for the difference.

Cheers,
Geoff
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Old 02-06-2017, 04:39 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by splinters View Post
Are you saying that while holding the rudder stick off center with heading gain active, the other surfaces continue to take corrective action while you change the plane's attitude? And you have no rate gain set? If so, then your receiver is behaving quite differently to mine and will be interesting to discover what is the reason for the difference.

Cheers,
Geoff
Did not do it that way, but I will tomorrow. OK I have both Rate and Heading gains set to equal on all three axis. FWIW 50%. Pretty much how I fly. FM1 safety with no gains. FM2 is my sports mode and only use moderate Rate Gain. FM3 is 3D mode and use both Rate and Heading Gain with 125% Priority.

What I did is activated the gyros (advanced throttle) with the plane in a static attitude position of straight and level. Then rolled the plane to 45 degrees. As expected the Ailerons deflected in the opposite direction and held. . More I roll, the more deflection. While holding it at 45 degrees, I then inputted Rudder on the stick, and Ailerons remained deflected with no movement. I then repeated with Elevator and got the same result, no movement on the Ailerons. As soon as I moved the Aileron stick off center. the Ailerons snapped to Neutral position back under my control. I repeated the test on both Elevators and Rudder with the same results.

In my minds eye, that is how it should work. Example let's say a knife edge and I turn with Elevator, I do not want to Rudder to snap back to neutral causing the plane to fall out and nose dive.

I did get to fly today and tried something I kind of liked with a catch. I set FM3 all 3 axis Rate Gain 50% (normal for me), but set Heading Gain to a whopping 80% with 100% Priority.

One result I expected is at moderate speed I had oscillation on the Ailerons. That is the only negative. But for Slow, Post Stall, and zero airspeed maneuvers was great. In fact it made many maneuvers super easy. Harriers, Hovering, and slow Knife Edges were hands-off. All I had to do is work the throttle. Since I use a 3-axis Joystick to fly makes it really easy and smooth. You can work the throttle without any chance of unplanned Rudder input. A Joystick turned me from a Advanced Beginner to Novice in a months time. Will never go back to dual thumb sticks.
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Old 02-06-2017, 08:33 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
What I did is activated the gyros (advanced throttle) with the plane in a static attitude position of straight and level. Then rolled the plane to 45 degrees. As expected the Ailerons deflected in the opposite direction and held. . More I roll, the more deflection. While holding it at 45 degrees, I then inputted Rudder on the stick, and Ailerons remained deflected with no movement. I then repeated with Elevator and got the same result, no movement on the Ailerons. As soon as I moved the Aileron stick off center. the Ailerons snapped to Neutral position back under my control. I repeated the test on both Elevators and Rudder with the same results.
Yep, so your observation is the same as mine. Heading gain is deactivated on all control surfaces if any stick is off center. Otherwise, in your test you would have seen the ailerons move back to neutral while you held the rudder off center and rotated the plane back to level attitude. Any observed aileron/elevator surface movement would be due to rate gain alone.

Let's say you start a gentle climb with a little up-elevator (rudder & aileron at center) and a sudden gust of wind causes the plane to roll or yaw. Heading gain will do nothing to correct the roll or yaw while that elevator stick is being held back.

Similarly, if you go into a knife-edge and maintain only rudder deflection on the sticks, heading gain will do nothing to correct any change in the pitch and roll axes caused by external disturbances. Only if you let go all sticks will heading gain come into play to maintain the current attitude.

I agree with you that it would be disconcerting if deactivation of heading gain caused the surfaces to immediately snap back to neutral. But you just have to keep in mind that those surfaces are locked in the position they were in at the instant heading gain was deactivated and their position bears no resemblance to the position of the (centered) sticks until you nudge them.

Heading gain is purely a "hands-off" assist. This is probably why most of the factory-supplied models with AS3X don't configure heading hold. They have high rate gain with high priority, e.g. 80% rate gain with 160% priority. I've even seen 195% priority!

Your 3-axis gimbal sounds very cool!

This certainly is a fascinating hobby!
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Old 02-12-2017, 09:04 PM   #66
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Thanks a million Dereck, Splinters and everyone else. I am getting ready to setup a couple 636's. Will start slowly on one plane and work up. Thanks for all the great info as the Spektrum vids leave a few unanswered questions.
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Old 02-13-2017, 05:45 PM   #67
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What if I wanted to say put one of these on a 78" Beaver? I would want mode 1 a Gyro "safe" mode with medium throws, mode 2 a general fly around mode with medium rates no gyro and mode 3 high rates no gyro. Any harm in using it that way?
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Old 02-13-2017, 07:42 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by SkyDaddy View Post
What if I wanted to say put one of these on a 78" Beaver? I would want mode 1 a Gyro "safe" mode with medium throws, mode 2 a general fly around mode with medium rates no gyro and mode 3 high rates no gyro. Any harm in using it that way?
No Sir, no problem at all. Just makes it an expensive 6-channel RX.
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Old 02-13-2017, 07:53 PM   #69
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Default Another GyroStabilized Option without Programming

Originally Posted by SkyDaddy View Post
What if I wanted to say put one of these on a 78" Beaver? I would want mode 1 a Gyro "safe" mode with medium throws, mode 2 a general fly around mode with medium rates no gyro and mode 3 high rates no gyro. Any harm in using it that way?
There is also a very big user base that uses the APPRENTICE SAFE Receiver in other planes. This receiver is factory programmed (and not user adjustable) and apparently the GYRO Parameters are very robust over a wide variety of planes which means:
1. in Beginner Mode: The plane is almost impossible to stall and is very docile
2. in Intermediate Mode: The plane has limits on Elevator and Aileron deflection to avoid over control.
3. In Advanced Mode: The plane is very acrobatic but has wind stability (rate gains are active)

I have used this for the Parkzone T28 (low wing) and ElectroStik (High Wing)

Trust, but Verify!
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Old 02-13-2017, 08:33 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by raming View Post
There is also a very big user base that uses the APPRENTICE SAFE Receiver in other planes. This receiver is factory programmed (and not user adjustable)
But why would Skydaddy want that?

The Apprentice SAFE is great as a Trainer. It biggest feature is the PANIC MODE so you can press the BIND/TRAINER button to save the plane. Other than that there i snot a lot to be gained. I can see it on a T-28 low wing as a Trainer, but not for aerobatic or 3D. The Apprentice SAFE RX is tuned for small control surfaces with Low Rates like the Apprentice has. Put that in a plane with large control surfaces with some Authority, and you can rip the plane apart.
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Old 02-14-2017, 12:33 AM   #71
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Default SAFE is not boring!

The thread on another Forum titled "Eflite SAFE RX in another plane" has a list of over 200 planes that flew well with the Safe Receiver upgrade including at least 2 'Beavers" and many 3D Models.

My only intent is to help other forum user's from avoiding bad experiences.

My experiences have been quite mixed with the AR636 receiver (I crashed two planes due to control Oscillation). The SAFE Receiver in both my ElectroStik and T28 have given me the ability to fly very aggressively, especially in high winds.

My most recent experience with the AR636 receiver has been much more pleasant in my small 3D Hummer.

Anyone out there who has actually had good or bad experiences with these receivers care to share?

Trust, but Verify!
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:53 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by raming View Post
My only intent is to help other forum user's from avoiding bad experiences.
Raming I apologize if I offended you. Was not my intention. The SAFE RX are good things. I used it to learn to fly. They have their place.

You are correct the AR636 can certainly cause a plane to oscillated. That is a result of Gains being way to high. I addressed that issue earlier. Start at low Gains and work your way up.

As for using a SAFE RX in a 3D plane can certainly be done, but defeats the purpose of the plane. By that I mean Beginner and Intermediate flight modes limits Roll Pitch and Yaw. Not something you want to do in 3D. I can see the PANIC feature being usefull
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Old 02-14-2017, 03:03 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by raming View Post
My only intent is to help other forum user's from avoiding bad experiences.
Raming I apologize if I offended you. Was not my intention. The SAFE RX are good things. I used it to learn to fly. They have their place.

You are correct the AR636 can certainly cause a plane to oscillated. That is a result of Gains being way to high. I addressed that issue earlier. Start at low Gains and work your way up.

As for using a SAFE RX in a 3D plane can certainly be done, but defeats the purpose of the plane. By that I mean Beginner and Intermediate flight modes limits Roll Pitch and Yaw. Not something you want to do in 3D. I can see the PANIC feature being usefull
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Old 02-14-2017, 04:03 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
Raming I apologize if I offended you. Was not my intention. The SAFE RX are good things. I used it to learn to fly. They have their place.

You are correct the AR636 can certainly cause a plane to oscillated. That is a result of Gains being way to high. I addressed that issue earlier. Start at low Gains and work your way up.

As for using a SAFE RX in a 3D plane can certainly be done, but defeats the purpose of the plane. By that I mean Beginner and Intermediate flight modes limits Roll Pitch and Yaw. Not something you want to do in 3D. I can see the PANIC feature being usefull
Thanks ... apology not needed!

Effectively communicating such complicated stuff is always a challenge!

To my surprise, all of my experience to date with the SAFE receiver shows that in 'Advanced' mode, the plane is just as responsive as with a non-gyro receiver!
So, in addition to the PANIC feature and the two 'Docile' flight modes, I have found the 'Advanced' mode to give full unrestricted control PLUS improved handling in windy conditions.

From what I have read, the SAFE receiver is a souped-up AR636 receiver with a few additional features (both software and hardware?). It is a pity that no one has been able to dissect the programming to see how they made this work so well.

I only fly my 'SAFE' planes in the 'Advanced Mode' but have not hesitated to hand the transmitter over to a newbie in 'Beginner Mode' and see how easy they find it to fly.

Try flying someone's Apprentice S in 'Advanced Mode' and tell me what you think!

Trust, but Verify!
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Old 02-14-2017, 08:18 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by raming View Post
Try flying someone's Apprentice S in 'Advanced Mode' and tell me what you think!
I do no thave to. I have one. It was my first plane 3.5 years ago. I am one of the guys who discovered the Brown Out Problem with the first release when they fell out of the sky. Ask RockinRobins.

Conventional RATE Gain is not of much use in a 3D Plane IMHO. The AR636 has HEADING Gain is what a 3D pilot is most interested in. Rate and Heading Gain are two different things. In my mind to help me understand the difference between the two is Rate Gain acts just like Shock Absorbers in a car. It dampens the turbulence and bumps from wind. It does not put you back on the same heading or attitude.

Heading Gain puts the plane back into the same Heading and Attitude. Jet pilots would call it Fly-By-Wire. Example if I want to pitch the nose up 10 degrees, I pull back on the Elevator to pitch the nose up 10 degrees and recenter the stick. The AR636 will keep the plane nose pitched up 10 degrees without any input from me assuming I have enough airspeed.

So if I want to say Hover, all I do is stand the plane up on the tail and let go of the sticks. All I have to do is adjust throttle to control altitude. I do not have to work the Rudder, Ailerons, or Elevator. I have literally let go of the TX and handed it to another user to demonstrate this. Same for knife edges or harriers. It is hands off when set up correctly. The trick is getting it set up.

I have 3 flight modes. FM1 is my so called Safe Mode. No gyros, just low rates on control surfaces and use it as a conventional gentle 6-channel receiver. FM2 is Sports mode with only moderate throw rates and low Rate Gains set on the gyros set up for fast airspeed. FM3 is 3D mode at stalled air speeds with both high Rate and Heading Gains. If I try to fly fast in FM3, the plane will oscillate. So when I exit a 3D maneuver I switch to FM2

EDIT NOTE:

If you really want to mess with someone and make them crash their Apprentice try this. After power up, put the plane is a unusual orientation lik einverted or nose straight down. Then advance the throttle half way, and then cut the throttle to take off and see what happens in Beginner or Intermediate mode. They will crash immediately. When you advance the throttle after power up, that turns on the gyros and tells them what straight and level is. So if you did that with the plane inverted, as soon as you take off the plane will invert itself thinking that is straight and level. Works better if they take off in Advance mode. As soon as they switch to Beginner, Intermediate, or push the Panic Button they will crash.

Needless to say there is a Flaw in the design that can be exploited.
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