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Old 02-02-2017, 09:23 PM   #1
dereckbc
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Default Servo Arm ?

OK getting ready to start a build on a EF 48 inch EXP model. I wil be using Hitect HS-5070HH servo that used group B1 Servo arms.

In all my builds I have found it almost impossible to get the Servo Arms at 90 degree right angle to the control rod or string. The splines just never line up right. With some models there is a little slop in the servo tray you can twist a little and get close.

So I guess I have two questions.

1. Are there after market servo arms that you can adjust to nail the angle?
2. If no after market arms are out there how do you deal with it?
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Old 02-02-2017, 09:40 PM   #2
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If possible adjust the pushrod

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Old 02-02-2017, 10:18 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by park View Post
If possible adjust the pushrod
Thanks but that will not do what I am asking.

Looking for a way to adjust the Servo Arm so it is at a 90 degree angle to the push rod when the Servo is centered, aka Neutral @ 1500 ms. With a 24 teeth spline means if can be as far off as +/-8 degrees.
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Old 02-02-2017, 11:04 PM   #4
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Set the servo to the angle you need....
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Old 02-03-2017, 12:32 AM   #5
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dereckbc........I had similar issues in the past with heli servo installations.....could never get the servo arms and splines to true 90. That was awhile back with older MG digitals.

Finally just trued them as best as I could and modified the installation brackets to compensate for the alignment. It worked fine for the rear tail rotor linkage, but it took quite a bit of modification (which I regretted later) to get aileron linkage true... (had a lot to due with poor gyro performance back then)......all that was remedied later with a more advanced TX, that provided programmable adjustment fine tuning.

I can't see why that cannot be accomplished (modified servo installation placement) unless you're having issues with directional throw being true throughout the complete rotation of the cycle...?
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Old 02-03-2017, 12:55 AM   #6
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I have searched A LOT for HS-65 heavy duty/extended arms (25T B1). Unfortunately these are the only ones I have been able to find.

If your surface linkage point is not exactly in line with the hinge, favor the servo horn in the same direction.

http://extremeflightrc.com/Omega-Ser...MG_p_1778.html

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Old 02-03-2017, 01:28 AM   #7
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"If your surface linkage point is not exactly in line with the hinge, favor the servo horn in the same direction."

I agree....!
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Old 02-03-2017, 01:59 AM   #8
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One other thing could be to see if your surfaces travel further in one direction than the other. Favor the arm to match.
I like to deflect them by hand, unlinked to maximum and then mark that angle with a piece of tape on the rudder or drawing a line on a piece of cardboard resting on the table. I find it easier to tune to full deflection than to risk stressing the system or overtraveling by maxing out with the servo.

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Old 02-04-2017, 03:42 AM   #9
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Well I ended up figuring this out, at least on this project. I remember some time back on this forum or the other one reading one way to deal with the problem. I recalled if you use the Hitec 4-Arm Servo or Disc as you turn it 90 degrees and place i ton the Spline will give you different angles. Sure enough I found 1 position that got real dang close, with a degree or 2. Not perfect, but good enough when you take this into account when you physically instal the servo. The Servo Bay has enough room you have a few degrees of play where you can twist the servo around to get the control arm perfectly square with the control rod. Once you find it and aligned, nail it down with screws.
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Old 02-04-2017, 06:06 AM   #10
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I like servos that you can turn the arm 90 degrees to a slightly different spot. That is the way they all should be. Unfortunately many are made with a number of splines which is devisable by 4 so then it doesn't work.

The could make arms that are a 1/2 notch off but I haven't seen that.

All we are left with is sub trims, which will move the servo without using flight trim, aircraft with flight controllers usually can't use them, screws up the FC.

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Old 02-04-2017, 08:10 AM   #11
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One point is that the 4 leg arms are not 90 - 180 - 270 - 360 exactly ... when you test them by placing on servo - you find that each leg has a slightly different centre point to the servo. This means juggling the arm till you get it right for installation. Then cut of the other 3 legs !

The use of the disc is another way ... especially those discs that have no control rod holes pre-drilled.

You could use the standard servo arm and then one of the thin CF servo arm extenders screwed on - drill to suit.

Even after market universal arms cannot answer this - they too have splines even though they have bolt / screw to tighten onto output shaft of servo.

My usual way is to dremel the servo slot and angle the servo in its slot to match the arm etc. but only if I'm really that worried about it ! My general sport stuff - just gets what it gets !!

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Old 02-04-2017, 11:14 AM   #12
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I have encountered servos that do not have equal travel in both directions when set to a radio "zero". I have had to sub trim TO equal travel, then use that as the mechanical center to orient the servo arm. One more thing to consider. Check you servos mechanical end points.

I don't have a short temper. I just have a quick reaction to B.S.
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Old 02-06-2017, 05:36 PM   #13
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Use the longest single arm supplied with the servo and then use your transmitters subtrim function to center the servo arm. This is SOP with nearly any 3D airplane.

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Old 02-06-2017, 07:25 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Xpress.. View Post
Use the longest single arm supplied with the servo and then use your transmitters subtrim function to center the servo arm. This is SOP with nearly any 3D airplane.
Yes I understand that. It maybe SOP, but does not mean it is the best way.

If you use subtrim, you loose resolution and accuracy. Example say you have to use sub trim to offset say 10 degrees, turns a +/- 60 degree servo to +/- 50 degrees. You also have to sacrifice mechanical leverage gain in torque because it forces you to lengthen the servo arm throw to make up for the loss. Think of it like a 10 speed bicycle. In first gear it is real easy to pedal because of the mechanical leverage gain

My 3D plane throws are 45 degrees. With a +/- 60 degree Servo I want to have it set up so when my Servo arm swings 60 degrees, my control surfaces deflect 45 degrees or a 1.333: ratio gain. So with my HS-5070MH servo operating at 7.4 volts generates 52 inches or torque gets a leverage gain of 1.333 or 69 ounces of torque on the control surface.
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Old 02-06-2017, 07:34 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
The use of the disc is another way ... especially those discs that have no control rod holes pre-drilled.
Yes Sir and I took that 1 step further. I have blank carbon fiber disc, control arm, and control horn. Or in other words no holes pre-drilled.

That will allow me to obtain perfect dead center on the servo control arm without any trim. It will also allow me to place the control arm push rod as close to center of the servo control arm and as far away from the control surface as possible which gives me maximum leverage, torque, and full resolution.

I have a DX6 radio which has a resolution of 2048 over a 120 degree range of motion 0f 900 to 2100 micro-seconds of the servo. Put an other way as close to perfect geometry and symmetry as you can get.
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Old 02-06-2017, 08:05 PM   #16
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You only have to watch Wargo's 3D videos and resolution is a high point of his.

Use of not only sub-trim ... but also EPA affects resolution and as he says - its always best to have 100% of servo movement each way with mechanical setup to give the required travel.

Here he goes into this and why ...



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Old 02-06-2017, 09:59 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
Yes I understand that. It maybe SOP, but does not mean it is the best way.

If you use subtrim, you loose resolution and accuracy. Example say you have to use sub trim to offset say 10 degrees, turns a +/- 60 degree servo to +/- 50 degrees. You also have to sacrifice mechanical leverage gain in torque because it forces you to lengthen the servo arm throw to make up for the loss. Think of it like a 10 speed bicycle. In first gear it is real easy to pedal because of the mechanical leverage gain

My 3D plane throws are 45 degrees. With a +/- 60 degree Servo I want to have it set up so when my Servo arm swings 60 degrees, my control surfaces deflect 45 degrees or a 1.333: ratio gain. So with my HS-5070MH servo operating at 7.4 volts generates 52 inches or torque gets a leverage gain of 1.333 or 69 ounces of torque on the control surface.
Shifting the center point with your transmitter isn't going to affect the servo itself, it generally only affects the transmitters output which can be adjusted with EPA (the servo is capable of rotating a total of 180 degrees, it is digitally limited to 120 degrees out of the box). We've done it this way with the giants for years without issue because it's the simplest and most effective method to get the proper linkage geometry without using fancy and expensive gizmos and doodads (namely a programmer).

We did it that way with the humble HS-65MG back in the day with the 48" EXP airplanes, the HS-5070MH was engineered to be so much above and beyond what those airplanes really need that you could set the airplane up with the worst linkage geometry you can possibly imagine and that servo would still be able to muscle the control surfaces around.

But, to each his own, if your method works for you then stick with it

FYI, if you're after the perfect setup that utilizes every bit of the available resolution then I'd suggest picking up a programmer, it digitally shifts the servos movement range without killing any resolution. You can adjust your center and end points with it and all you have to do in your transmitter is max your D/R and EPA

http://hitecrcd.com/products/servos/...tester/product

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Old 02-06-2017, 10:49 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Xpress.. View Post
FYI, if you're after the perfect setup that utilizes every bit of the available resolution then I'd suggest picking up a programmer, it digitally shifts the servos movement range without killing any resolution. You can adjust your center and end points with it and all you have to do in your transmitter is max your D/R and EPA
I have one, model HP 21.
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Old 02-06-2017, 10:55 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
I have one, model HP 21.
Me thinks he means HPP21......HP21 is a black printer cartridge.......
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Old 02-07-2017, 12:00 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by pizzano View Post
Me thinks he means HPP21......HP21 is a black printer cartridge.......
Nah just left out a P. Now I gotta go PP.
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Old 02-07-2017, 04:09 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Xpress.. View Post
Shifting the center point with your transmitter isn't going to affect the servo itself, it generally only affects the transmitters output which can be adjusted with EPA (the servo is capable of rotating a total of 180 degrees, it is digitally limited to 120 degrees out of the box). We've done it this way with the giants for years without issue because it's the simplest and most effective method to get the proper linkage geometry without using fancy and expensive gizmos and doodads (namely a programmer).
Thank you sir. I hope you see this because I have a couple of questions and have made some inaccurate assumptions on my part.

I have the HPP-21 Programmer, and I know you can adjust the center. I should say the center one way or the other. So I am with you there.

What I did not know is the Servo is capable 180 degree rotation and how to change it. Example say center is shifted from 1500 microseconds to 1600. How do I shift 900 - 2100 to 1000 - 2200 on the Programmer?

Second question is does Hitech have white papers on HS-xxxx servos? Something like how to do that!
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Old 02-07-2017, 06:10 AM   #22
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As noted already... Just use sub trim, that's what it's meant for. It doesnt effect resolution or accuracy one iota.. The only negative effect is that the servo travel range will be reduced slightly, but this is only an issue if you were over driving the travel range close to 150% travel, in addition to the sub trim.

But you can get adjustable servo arms:


I sometimes use these on a heli tail servo where you cant use sub trim.
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Old 02-07-2017, 07:55 AM   #23
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It also depends what radio you use .... Spektrum / JR has significantly less servo travel than a 9x or 9xr ... the 9xr normal travel for example is equal to 125% travel on a Spekie.
If you increase servo travel adjust on the 9x / 9xr range - which can go up to 125% level - you can easily hit the servo stops, especially in combination setups as with elevons. This then means even more so - not to use Transmitter means to correct centres etc.
Whatever the method - it is still best to cure any needs with the mechanical setup first - then you have 100% of every Transmitter function if needed further.

I honestly feel that today many 'old ways' that provide solid dependable solutions are being left aside because of the convenience of Transmitter functions. Many of the old ways are well worth the time to learn and use.

Lets take an example. The other day I found my 9x radio battery dead ... I left the **** thing switched on after last session. I quickly bound the model to my other 9xr but being a new model hadn't transferred the electronic trims to mechanical setup. When I launched - it was a real handful and needed to be landed to add bootfuls of trim and launch again.
If I had done as I usually do - transfer my electronic settings to mechanical permanent - my trims would have been centred ... all surface movements correct etc. and model would have flown as if original radio was still there.
Its not as hard as it first appears ... its just a few minutes of time to do it.

My tuppence worth anyway ...

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Old 02-07-2017, 04:55 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
Thank you sir. I hope you see this because I have a couple of questions and have made some inaccurate assumptions on my part.

I have the HPP-21 Programmer, and I know you can adjust the center. I should say the center one way or the other. So I am with you there.

What I did not know is the Servo is capable 180 degree rotation and how to change it. Example say center is shifted from 1500 microseconds to 1600. How do I shift 900 - 2100 to 1000 - 2200 on the Programmer?

Second question is does Hitech have white papers on HS-xxxx servos? Something like how to do that!
The way the circuit interprets the signal out of the box is 900-2100μs will give you a 120 degree rotation total. With the programmer, you can change that so that the servo will rotate 180 degrees with a 900-2100μs signal. Your HPP-21 will let you do that, you just have to set the center and EPA's. But generally you don't use 180 degree rotation with airplanes, 120 degrees is plenty enough.

We don't have any documentation on it that I'd be able to post, the HPP-21 should have a general guide that came with it.

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Old 02-07-2017, 06:37 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Whatever the method - it is still best to cure any needs with the mechanical setup first - then you have 100% of every Transmitter function if needed further.
Agreed, to a point. You should of course get the arm to the closest possible spline position, but with the long single throw arms used on 3D models it's often not possible to get the arm perfectly perpendicular.
Yes you could theoretically 'hack out' the servo well and offset the whole servo body, but this would be a truly awful solution IMHO. A few clicks of sub trim would be far easier and far better all round. This is precisely what sub trim is intended for.

As for transferring models to another Tx... If you do this without checking the setup you are asking for disaster. Channel assignment, throws, expo, mixes, and not forgetting servo reversing would all make doing this without re-programming the Tx up begging for disaster. Sure you could take the Luddite approach and ignore all the modern features of a programmable Tx and do everything mechanically like we had to do 40+ years ago. Fair enough if that's what floats your boat.
Personally I have my model setups copied onto the Tx SD card so transferring to another Tx (of the same brand) is just a matter of swapping the SD card and uploading the model memories.. takes a minute or two, max.
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