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Old 02-15-2017, 01:49 PM   #76
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Not following you be because my Apprentice was in in Gyro mode in beginner mode. Intermediate and Advanced were non-Gyro modes. I did experiment with this also by picking up the tail when I activated the esc. I kept it in intermediate mode and flipped to beginner mode just to see what happened. It nosed over as you said to where it thought level was.
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Old 02-15-2017, 01:52 PM   #77
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My cables should be here today to experiment with my first ar636 using iPhone app. I am going to setup just like Spektrum video. Mode 1 Gyro, mode 2 fly around no gyro 70ish % throws and mode three with heading hold. It is a little FMS MXS 3D plane with 43" wingspan. Standby for results.
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:16 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by SkyDaddy View Post
Not following you be because my Apprentice was in in Gyro mode in beginner mode. Intermediate and Advanced were non-Gyro modes.
All 3 modes use the gyros.

In Beginner and Intermediate Modes pitch, roll, and yaw are limited. The actual numbers maybe off but in Beginner Mode to 15 degrees, and Intermediate Mode 30 degrees. Release the sticks and the plane and in either mode the plane automatically returns to straight and level.

Advanced Mode there is no restriction to pitch, roll, and yaw but the gyros are still active so if you gust of wind hits the plane and rolls it, the gyros will resist and try to return the plane to whatever attitude it was in. Additional if you center the sticks the plane will not automatically go to straight and level flight.

PANIC works in all 3 modes.
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Old 02-16-2017, 01:09 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
All 3 modes use the gyros.

In Beginner and Intermediate Modes pitch, roll, and yaw are limited. The actual numbers maybe off but in Beginner Mode to 15 degrees, and Intermediate Mode 30 degrees. Release the sticks and the plane and in either mode the plane automatically returns to straight and level.

Advanced Mode there is no restriction to pitch, roll, and yaw but the gyros are still active so if you gust of wind hits the plane and rolls it, the gyros will resist and try to return the plane to whatever attitude it was in. Additional if you center the sticks the plane will not automatically go to straight and level flight.

PANIC works in all 3 modes.
Ok that is not what I understood was happening but it's inconsequential since I sold my Apprentice.

Now, let's move on to the 636 I installed in my MXS last night. What a nightmare but I finally got it. I had trouble with connecting with my iPhone 5 and tried over and over for about 2 hours. I finally grabbed the wife's iPhone 6+
and it worked almost flawlessly! Now I have an excuse to buy the iPhone 7 HAHA!
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Old 02-16-2017, 06:23 PM   #80
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Ok not sure I follow how to set relative gain in flight. Wouldn't you have to do this in mode one for all three axis? So there was no outside influence from rate gain or heading gain in other 2 modes?
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Old 02-17-2017, 12:29 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by SkyDaddy View Post
Ok not sure I follow how to set relative gain in flight. Wouldn't you have to do this in mode one for all three axis? So there was no outside influence from rate gain or heading gain in other 2 modes?
It is described earlier in this thread.

Here is how i did it. Do not use Heading Gains

I set FM1 as Rudder with 75% Gain, FM2 for Elevator at 75%, and FM3 for Ailerons at 75% gain. So when in FM1, only the Rudder has gyro turned on. The other two axis are off.

At power up. Roll all 3 Flight Modes 0%. then take off. Fly at the speed you intend to use, and make passes. I start with Rudder in FM1 and turn it up until I see oscillations, and back off a bit. Switch to FM2 and repeat. Then on FM3.

Land the plane and note where you ended up. Then go back into the RX and set them. Then disable relative gains your done.

On my plane I have FM1 with low rates and no gyros. My safe mode making it a plain ole RX.

FM2 is my Sports Mode. Throw rates are moderate, I only use Conventional Gains, no Heading Gain. I use the Rate Gains I found using the above method. FWIW on my plane about 30% Gain on all three axis

FM3 is my 3D Mode. Throws are at 100% full deflection of 55 degrees on all control surfaces. I use both Conventional and Heading Gains, and they are very high of 60 to 80%. I found them by experimentation. Example I used Knife Edges to find the Rudder Heading Gain, Hoover to find Elevator, and Roll I found with Harriers. I set both Rate and Heading gain equally with 125% Priority.

The key is to take it in small steps. Example if you set up the 3 FM's like I did at 75% and do not Roll them back before take-off, bad things are going to happen. Roll it back to ZERO on all modes and only work one axis at a time.

With Rudder only on FM1, you work that up until it is OK. Then switch to FM2 where only Elevator is active and work it. Then FM3 for Ailerons.

My approach is to use the Relative Gains for setup and experimentation. That is my way. Another Member I know uses Relative gain in FM3 he uses for 3D mode. When he wants to do slow Flight stuff, he turns up the gains. When he wants to fly faster he rolls it back. He wears himself out doing that.

You just gotta find your own method of madness. Relative Gain allows you to do that.

FWIW I never got the Cell Phone App to work. It is a known issue. I use a laptop. It finally worked when I replaced my phone with a Samsung G7. I still do not use the phone app. To dang slow.
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:28 AM   #82
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Ok thanks for info. Will take it slow and methodical. I just just had all kinds of problems trying to set subtrims with phone app. It would go all wacky in different directions which became very confusing. Will take my wife's iPhone 6 which seemed to work ok.
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Old 02-17-2017, 03:14 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by SkyDaddy View Post
Ok thanks for info. Will take it slow and methodical. I just just had all kinds of problems trying to set subtrims with phone app. It would go all wacky in different directions which became very confusing. Will take my wife's iPhone 6 which seemed to work ok.
Use a Netbook, Laptop, or Tablet if you have one.
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Old 02-17-2017, 02:40 PM   #84
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One more question. When I trim plane in the air in the "safe" mode land plane and connect to iOS device are those saved in the subtrims? I had so many problems with the iPhone app I never was able to validate this.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:00 PM   #85
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[QUOTE=SkyDaddy;1003735]One more question. When I trim plane in the air in the "safe" mode land plane and connect to iOS device are those saved in the subtrims? I had so many problems with the iPhone app I never was able to validate this.[/QUOTE]

"I just just had all kinds of problems trying to set subtrims with phone app. It would go all wacky in different directions which became very confusing. Will take my wife's iPhone 6 which seemed to work ok."

Which is it.......had problems with the iPhone app or did not have problems with the iPhone app.......?

Take this advice and run with it.....:

"Use a Netbook, Laptop, or Tablet if you have one."......preferably an Android "Marshmallow" OPS with tablet or Windows 7 OPS........Windows 10 and Mac OPS still have issues that crop up from time to time...!

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Old 02-17-2017, 07:01 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by SkyDaddy View Post
One more question. When I trim plane in the air in the "safe" mode land plane and connect to iOS device are those saved in the subtrims?
No sir. Anything to do with a Control Surface is done in the RX. The RX radio is DEFAULT model.

One thing that stumped me was Wing Type. I made the mistake of selecting Dual Ailerons in the TX radio. You only do that if you want to use the Ailerons as Flaperons. When I did that neither Aileron went to Neutral and I had to use a lot of Up Subtrim to get them back to neutral. I was not using them as Flaperons. All was fixed when I set the Wing Type in the TX back single servo Ailerons. You set Wing Type in the RX for Dual Ailerons.

I have a DX6 radio. The only things that I did not leave as Default was setting up the Flight Mode Switch to a 3-Way Switch, turned on the Voice Audio to announce FM when switched. The second thing I programmed was in the Telemetry sub menu to set up AS3X and assign the Roller Bar to control Relative Gain. Everything else is DEFAULT.

Dual Rates, Expo, Geometry Balance, and Sub Trims are all done in the RX and controlled with your FM Switch for each of the 3 Flight Modes. Make dang sure your RX Orientation is correct.

Speaking of RX Orientation here is a great tip: I used a piece rubber foam you buy at a Craft Store to make pillow cushions with. It isolates the RX from the planes airframe and dampens vibrations and shocks. I just a piece to fit snug in the RX tray, gglued it in place, then sit the RX on the foam with some double sided sticky tape they give you with the RX.
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Old 02-17-2017, 07:43 PM   #87
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Yes, I have been using flaperons in the DX6 on all my planes without flaps. I tried to set it up in 636 and selected 1ailerom 1flap in tx just as the app said and it just wouldn't work. I selected dual aileron in rx and normal in tx and all seems well. Headed back out at 4 this afternoon to set gains. Do you actually go to the telemetry screen while flying to be able to set relative gain? I've got all modes as you recommended with no head hold gain and relative gain set in one control surface in each mode. My only difference was I will use mode 1 for roll (ailerons) and 3 for yaw (rudder).
I also figured out I fried one of the 3 ar 636's I bought by hooking up to telemetry port just before I read it the second time I'm directions. Now it won't arm after binding so I assume it's toast.
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:56 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by SkyDaddy View Post
Do you actually go to the telemetry screen while flying to be able to set relative gain?
Yes I do. So I can see where I am at, and to verify what is going on.
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Old 02-18-2017, 12:51 AM   #89
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[QUOTE=pizzano;1003741]
Originally Posted by SkyDaddy View Post
One more question. When I trim plane in the air in the "safe" mode land plane and connect to iOS device are those saved in the subtrims? I had so many problems with the iPhone app I never was able to validate this.[/QUOTE]

"I just just had all kinds of problems trying to set subtrims with phone app. It would go all wacky in different directions which became very confusing. Will take my wife's iPhone 6 which seemed to work ok."

Which is it.......had problems with the iPhone app or did not have problems with the iPhone app.......?

Take this advice and run with it.....:

"Use a Netbook, Laptop, or Tablet if you have one."......preferably an Android "Marshmallow" OPS with tablet or Windows 7 OPS........Windows 10 and Mac OPS still have issues that crop up from time to time...!

Sorry for the confusion. I was having probelms connecting AND then setting subtrim with my iPhone 5. I only used my wifes iPhone 6 to set up subtrim and
and complete initial setup. I then emailed that file to my phone and downloaded it into app. I since have used my iPhone 5 exclusively after turning OFF Flaperons and going to dual aileron. It all seems to be working fine now only losing connection occasionally while connected to plane.

I will say after getting it all ironed out I will never own another plane without as3x! It flys like it's on rails in mode 2 AND 3 at all speeds. Still working on YA. to maintain altitude in knife edge. I absolutely hated the feel of this plane without stabilization
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Old 02-18-2017, 01:12 AM   #90
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I am getting very happy I do not own one of these.

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Old 02-18-2017, 01:42 AM   #91
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If you do not like tinkering with electronics or computers you will hate it. I am semi proficient with electronic devices and was ready to throw it all in the garbage yesterday! After seeing how well it works, just in as3x mode without any heading hold, I am sold on the benefits of damping characteristics on control surfaces. It made an airframe I never have enjoyed flying very stable and still very manuverable.
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Old 02-18-2017, 03:35 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Wildflyer View Post
I am getting very happy I do not own one of these.
Well if you are not a Nerd and like to program stuff, I get it.

The real problem IMHO is just pain bad implementation and support on Horizon Hobby part. The did produce a series of 16 videos on how to set the RX up, but did a poor job of telling users how to use it.

Additionally the phone app and interface cable is horrible. A known issue by HH and users. It has two problems. 1 is the interface cable. First version just did not work. Second issue they do not instruct the user how to set a phone up so it does work.

Anyway that is why I started this thread to help folks connect the dots HH did not do in their 16 video series. Once you get the hang of it and understand how it works makes planes real easy to fly, especially Foamies allowing pilots to fly in wind conditions that would be otherwise impossible. I suspect in the near future they will add features you see in Drones like knowing where the ground is and not allowing you to crash it.
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Old 02-18-2017, 03:39 AM   #93
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Skydaddy this might help you with the cell phone. Heck might help everyone. Go to your Phones Audio settings. Find the Equalizer setting and set the Frequency Response to FLAT. In other words set the Bass. Mid Range, and High Frequencies all to 0 dB. Next go to your Volume Control setting for the Ear Phone Jack and turn the Volume all the way up. You might get a warnin gon you rphone about the volume being to loud. Just ignore it.
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Old 02-18-2017, 04:57 AM   #94
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Dereck, I was able to use my phone well enough to fly about 12 flights today and connect after each flight. I only had to cycle power a couple times to re-connect phone.


What I never could get was using roller to turn relative gain up until I saw occilations. I know there is something I don't have right on telemetry screen. I set cursor on GAIN and rolled it to zero. But as I roll it up and down I don't see any number in ACTUAL GAIN. I finally turned relative off and manually set mode 2 at 30/30/30 and mode 3 at 50/60/75 with heading gain equal or higher than that. It flew superbly I mode 2 and 3. In KE it still drops altitude slightly but maintains roll and pitch. I think I will take rudder heading gain on up to 100.
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Old 02-18-2017, 05:28 AM   #95
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Ok I could not go to sleep so I came out to shop to figure it out. Now I understand what you meant by "set gain to 75%". That is in the app (same as rx if connected) Then roll down to zero on the tx before taking off. I verified I can adjust each one up to 75% in each flight mode. Also learned that if you leave a gain at zero in rx and roll gain up on rx you get nothing since 100% of zero is still zero.
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Old 02-18-2017, 05:37 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by SkyDaddy View Post
Ok I could not go to sleep so I came out to shop to figure it out. Now I understand what you meant by "set gain to 75%". That is in the app (same as rx if connected) Then roll down to zero on the tx before taking off. I verified I can adjust each one up to 75% in each flight mode. Also learned that if you leave a gain at zero in rx and roll gain up on rx you get nothing since 100% of zero is still zero.
You got it now. FWIW if you find one or any axis does not oscillate @ 75%, you know what to do right? Crank them up to 100%. I seriously doubt you need to do that. If that happens means your control surfaces do not have much Authority, or your throws are to low.
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Old 02-18-2017, 02:07 PM   #97
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Yes, Spektrum's video 15 should definitely be revised to show this procedure more clearly. It needs to explain how you set each FM at 70-100% GAIN then zero out EACH mode's actual gain. If you follow all the videos and the one on Relative gain there's no way you will get it to work. Could cause a catostrophic event if you zero only one out and take off. This could happen very easily based on what I watched in Spektrum video.

I don't think it was necessary because you are at the center of the stick, but I made all of my D/R and Expo's same 40/15 across all three FM's. Going to set it asap after I get done honey doing this morning.
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Old 02-18-2017, 05:42 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by SkyDaddy View Post
If you do not like tinkering with electronics or computers you will hate it. I am semi proficient with electronic devices and was ready to throw it all in the garbage yesterday! After seeing how well it works, just in as3x mode without any heading hold, I am sold on the benefits of damping characteristics on control surfaces. It made an airframe I never have enjoyed flying very stable and still very maneuverable.
I'm not bad with electronics and computers, but I am not a PC programmer. I have built and used my last three PC's

I simply noticed the problems you guys are having with the receiver, sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. It sounds like the instructions are confusing. Some people say the Rx handles the dual rates, and some say the Tx does, and that is from HH. Sounds like the videos aren't much help.
It just doesn't seem like something I want to play with, I'd rather fly.

I have several 3axis stabilized receivers, 4-5 from Hobbyking and 3-4 from Lemon Rx. I know the benefits. These units program with small pots on the board, I can mod the response of all 3 channels in seconds. They all have performed great.

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Old 02-18-2017, 09:34 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Wildflyer View Post
I have several 3axis stabilized receivers, 4-5 from Hobbyking and 3-4 from Lemon Rx. I know the benefits. These units program with small pots on the board, I can mod the response of all 3 channels in seconds. They all have performed great.
Well all those you mention only use Conventional Rate Gain, and you use a Pot to adjust them between flights. The AR63 has Conventional Rate Gain plus Heading Gain which adds a layer of complexity. Could they use Pots to adjust the 6 settings>? Sure they could but that ads weight and mechanical failure point.

Once you get your head wrapped around it, it is pretty easy. It also allows you to adjust gains in flight to find the sweat spots.

HH just did not do a good job documenting it. I know for fact all the D/R Expos, and trims are done in the RX. I have spoken with the guy who did the 16 videos. I think his name is John. Been a while since I have spoken with him. He is the Guru behind the AR636 and I asked him specifically whether or not D/R Expo etc could be donne in the TX and RX. It is done on the RX period with one exception.

Spektrum Radios Pulse Position Modulation does not use standard 1000 to 2000 microsecond pulse width. I discovered this when I built a Joystick to use with my DX-6 Trainer port. The one thing you can change to get maximum resolution is to set the TX rates to 125% which gives you 800 to 2200 microsecond range.
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Old 02-19-2017, 01:37 AM   #100
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I put at least 20 flights on the MXS today and connected to iPhone after each flight. It connected almost every time without incident. I have it set about where I want it for my type of flying so should not have to make any more changes.
I flew in about 8-10 mph winds today which prior to as3x gave me a fit with this airframe, especially the landings. I am satisfied with my purchase and look forward to setting another rx up in the next plane I am currently building (Eflite Stick).
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