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Old 10-07-2005, 10:45 PM   #1
BMJR
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Default "Full contact" combat designs and equip

Some of us have put together bluecor constructed combat planes of various sizes and means of power and tried to do some combat. What we found was that simply cutting a ribbon wasn't as much fun as trying to take out the other person plane. Also even when we were only trying to cut ones ribbon there was the ocasional mid air.
About all we accomplished was destroying equip and emptying our wallets.
So I'm thinking about building a design that can handle full contact combat with reasonable survivability.
With that in mind weight seems to be a big factor (the plane needs to be light 8oz. or less) also speed (needs to fly relatively slow) We want to use brushless motors of CDROM class or only slightly larger. With the motor/ESC/battery and other equip mounted in a location so that it is protected as much as possible. A pusher with some type of ring or other means of prop protection seems the best choice.
We will be flying over tall grass, so surface impact will not be an issue. We just want something that we can fly into each other with and not do major damage.

Have any of you tried such a combat format or design? Any advise??
Thanks
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Old 10-08-2005, 03:32 AM   #2
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Used to fly contact combat with Zaggies. Real cheek tightening freeforalls. About six up at once. Of course they all looked the same. we'd bang into one another and keep on going. All stock speed 400s and nicad or nimh. batts. this was before lipos became popular. Wacked about 6 ins. off the wingtips to make them more maneuverable and a little quicker. Only thing that killed them in the end was when the nose became to punky. These had the EPP LE. Would like to try it again. Maybe a bit smaller, Little screamer size motor. Lipo buried in the wing for protection.

Gord.
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Old 10-09-2005, 03:08 AM   #3
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I have thought about something like that. I have looked at some of the small wings like the pocket combat wing, mini speed wing, etc.
They all seem a bit fast though. I might try a similar design with a higher lift wing and lower wing loading.
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Old 10-10-2005, 01:50 AM   #4
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Default Full Contact

I was just down to BEST in Texas. Six Zagi wings put on a demo. I must say it was pretty lame. They flew around for 15 loooooong minutes and really never made any close passes. The winner was declared by the last man to land after everyone elses battery craped out. For me I will take streamer action any day over that.

Our group uses planes that take 2hrs to build and $3.00 to replace if necessary. Mid-airs happen from time to time but most all are field repairable and the guy is back in action for the next round.

Just wondering if you have found the right equipment to get the desired results. Check out the RULES thread here on Wattflyer they really work if your group adopts them.

Just a thought, Wings can carry streamers and make streamer cuts. You guys don't have to have train wrecks to be happy. Put something stickey on the leading edge of your wings. syrup, honey etc. Tape a streamer to each wingtip and make wing cuts.
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Old 10-10-2005, 12:20 PM   #5
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we flew the mini speed wing for a while with (dare i say it) brushed motors. we would fly a pattern trying to hit each other. they were so small and fast that it was nearly impossible to hit each other. tough though.

i built a wing more like the fix configuration. slow park flying speed. thought that that would be the answer but no body joined in.

would love some insight into wing combat.

slam
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Old 10-10-2005, 08:06 PM   #6
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Some may or may not have seen this. I found it quite entertaining.

They only require a 7 x 4 prop.

http://media.putfile.com/The-Carnage9

Debbie Hicks AMA# 8601 Leader Member - Industrial
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Old 10-13-2005, 07:17 AM   #7
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We have tried indoor combat using GWS P-Sticks. We used streamers in the beginning ,but then decide thatcontact combat was more interesting. Some have put carbon fiber in the wings and built carbon fiber fuse. Planes are very easily repaired on the spot. We fly one night a week in a local middle school gym during the winter. Some also flew Zagi combat a couple of years ago.
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Old 10-15-2005, 07:12 AM   #8
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I think I have just what you are looking for. Sub 8 oz. and very manueverable. It can fly slow (pancake landings) or fast (40+ mph) and it's a pusher. It also uses a small brushless motor and small prop. Its prop is mounted mid fuse and prop protection can be added. electronics are protected and it's cheap to fix or make a new fuse. Here ya go...


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Old 10-15-2005, 07:14 AM   #9
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More pics


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Old 10-15-2005, 08:11 AM   #10
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Pretty cool planes!
Do you have plans available?
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Old 10-15-2005, 01:47 PM   #11
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I knew someone was going to ask that. I dont have plans because I make them from a template. I'm also testing an F35 Joint Strike Fighter version. The key is actually in the setup because there's really nothing fancy about the fuse...it's basically a modified flying wing. It's all about weight distribution and power setup. If you notice, everything is pretty much centralized which makes for great handling. People are always amazed because at first, it looks pretty plane jane but when it gets airborne, it's a whole different story. It doesn't need to go fast in order to be maneuverable yet it can fly pretty fast also. Here's my latest varient...


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Old 10-15-2005, 03:43 PM   #12
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Pyrock:
If you have a bit of time why not explain a bit about how you go about setting up the weight dist. and power set up. Looks like it might be a Feigo motor.

Gord.
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Old 10-15-2005, 05:28 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by flypaper 2 View Post
Pyrock:
If you have a bit of time why not explain a bit about how you go about setting up the weight dist. and power set up. Looks like it might be a Feigo motor.
I'll be glad too...

The setup is as follows:
E-flight Park 370 (4100kv)
Pheonix 10 ESC
HS 55 or 50 servos
GWS 3x2 prop
Kokam 910 (15C) lipo
GWS 4ch rx
CF control rods
Ikarus Shockflyer control horns

The motor is set approx. 4" from the trailing edge and the battery is about 4" from the nose. The CG is about 11" from the nose but the CG hasn't been much of an issue because everything is pretty much in the center of the plane. The servos, rx, and ESC sits right on the CG so that also helps balancing everything in the center. I believe the result is that the plane becomes very agile. Cut the throttle and the plane just floats down on its belly. Pretty interesting. I used 6mm depron and all the parts are glued together using 5 minute epoxy. I used to use hot glue but it's heavier and not as strong. The elevons use internal CA hinges so there no tape. All or most of the edges are tapered and sanded for a smooth edge. I've made so many of them that I can crank out a fuse in about an hour and a half. Another half hour to put the electronics and controls on. If I crash a plane, which usually involves a broken cockpit area, I just graft another piece on with 5 min. epoxy. While testing alternative motors, I've had to graft on a new nose piece 3 time before I gave up on the 4th nose (too much 5 min. epoxy). AUW hovers around 7.5 oz. and flight times are around 10-12 mins of mixed flight. Wingspan is 21". Length is 20".
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Old 10-16-2005, 09:21 PM   #14
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If no plans, just do me a favor.
put the plane on the floor, stand over it and snap a picture.
Next post the picture and the wingspan.

I have a program that will then scale everything out correctly.

Thanks in advance.................
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Old 10-16-2005, 09:30 PM   #15
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Cool planes.................
Do you have plans available?
I want to build one for a funfly.
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Old 10-18-2005, 06:33 AM   #16
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Red face F-22 parts layout

Pyrock,

If you use a template to make your F-22, you could just show how the parts are layed out on the 19" X 27" sheet of Depron and take a picture from above and others can try thier hand at building it and share the joy with you and post our results and all have a great time together. I believe that is what it's all about here at Wattflyer. Thanks.
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Old 10-18-2005, 06:37 AM   #17
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Red face F-22 parts layout

Pyrock,

If you use a template to make your F-22, you could just show how the parts are layed out on the 19" X 27" sheet of Depron and take a picture from above so others can try their hand at building it and share the joy with you and post their results and all have a great time together. I believe that's what it's all about here at Wattflyer. Having fun, learning, and sharing with each other. I'm sure people here have helped you when you asked for it. Have a good one.
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Old 10-21-2005, 12:38 AM   #18
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Yeah!!! Please share with us. I've seen numerous posts by you about this plane and they ALL end the same way..."I have this plane...yada yada yada...It's just what you need...yada yada yada...I make them so fast." Someone asks for plans and you say you don't have any. Are you fishing for someone to make an offer? Are they already for sale somewhere? Are you doing the "look what I have and you don't" thing? How about some video of this thing in action. You've advertised it enough, now SHOW us what it can do or how to make it.
Will it really do 40+ mph? With the batt and other components exposed like they are, along with the size of that prop, I find if hard to believe it does better than 25.
Inquiring minds want to know...
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Old 10-21-2005, 01:45 AM   #19
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sorry guys...I've been busy with the new job. I would love to post a video of it but I dont know how to post it or where to post it. A couple of people have emailed me and I emailed them a couple of short vids and they agree with me that it's definitely a winner. As far as plans, I've never made plans before nor am I an engineer. My brother was going to make plans but he's been busy too with his own business.

...And no, I'm not trying to coax people into making an offer although some have and I may sell cut pieces. This way, if you wish to trace them before you glue them together for future fuselages, that's fine as this is not a "business" for me but keep in mind, it's not as easy to cut as it looks AND Depron is getting more and more expensive. It took me many fuselages and a lot of $$ in Depron to get the cuts just right. I just want to share the wealth. Some people just wish to have someone else get it started by cutting out the pieces rather than going through the trouble to buy the depron, cut it, and figure out how it all comes together.

Anyway, show me how or where to post a vid and I'll be happy to share it. It IS fast and roughly 40 mph considering how fast I past cars in a 35mph speed limit. The internals stay in quite nicely but if you make a hard landing, the battery falls off which is the way i wanted it. I'd rather have the battery come off than crack the fuse.

One more thing...This is NOT my original plan. I copied a friends plane which was pretty "home made" looking and very rough around the edges. I like perfection so I made it differently and mounted the motor entirely different as well as the brushless/lipo setup. Let's just say that I have a ziploc bag full of small brushless motors, batteries, and speed controllers that didn't perform the way I wanted. The setup was inspired by the Concrusher which some of you may know.

BTW, I'm not "Advertising" it. I'm just like a proud father who wants to show off his kid.
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Old 10-21-2005, 02:10 AM   #20
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There are already some build threads on RCGroups on the F22. Builds the same as those. There are also PDF files there to download if you like. From what I have read about them they will roll climb and dive but won't quite do a loop. They have even tried ailerons tied into the tailerons without great success. I have one laid out from some stuff Pyrock sent to me so I will give it a try.
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Old 10-21-2005, 04:19 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by irone View Post
There are already some build threads on RCGroups on the F22. Builds the same as those. There are also PDF files there to download if you like. From what I have read about them they will roll climb and dive but won't quite do a loop. They have even tried ailerons tied into the tailerons without great success. I have one laid out from some stuff Pyrock sent to me so I will give it a try.
Irone,
Thats awsome...at least someone is being resourceful. There's just one thing I dont understand. Mine loops WITHOUT hesitation!! It even does upside down loops with just tailerons. I even do multiple consecutive loops. What setups are those other people using? Maybe their tailerons are not as big a mine.(no pun intended) or their throws are not as drastic as mine. I have to admit that mine is over powered and I like my controls squirley. With a fresh Kokam 910, I have unlimited vertical. The only limit is visual sight. Last weekend I did a bunch of Cobra maneuvers but it took me a few tries to get it back to level flight without dipping the nose. I pull up and go full throttle for a split second to bring the nose vertical than cut the throttle to get the nose back down then go full throttle again when the nose gets back level. Sometimes it takes full throttle to keep the nose from dipping. Anyway, I just finished cutting out a fuse for someone who was interested in getting one started.
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Old 10-22-2005, 04:22 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Pyrock View Post
Irone,
Thats awsome...at least someone is being resourceful. There's just one thing I dont understand. Mine loops WITHOUT hesitation!! It even does upside down loops with just tailerons. I even do multiple consecutive loops. What setups are those other people using? Maybe their tailerons are not as big a mine.(no pun intended) or their throws are not as drastic as mine. I have to admit that mine is over powered and I like my controls squirley. With a fresh Kokam 910, I have unlimited vertical. The only limit is visual sight. Last weekend I did a bunch of Cobra maneuvers but it took me a few tries to get it back to level flight without dipping the nose. I pull up and go full throttle for a split second to bring the nose vertical than cut the throttle to get the nose back down then go full throttle again when the nose gets back level. Sometimes it takes full throttle to keep the nose from dipping. Anyway, I just finished cutting out a fuse for someone who was interested in getting one started.
Pyrock, Before you glue or get rid of the fuselage you just cut out, you could lay the white Foam parts on a dark color floor or sheet and take a picture of the parts with a digital camera from directly overhead and just attach the picture to your next post. Many people will be able to scale the picture or freehand it and make something very similiar to yours. Then we could post our results etc with you. Does this sound easier than making plans? Of course you can also trace around the parts to paper and mail them to people who are interested. Just a thought. Does the 370 brushless motor seem to be the best performer of all the ones you have tested? Which ones have you tried so far? Have you tried a Medusa 12mm brushless? I have one but do not have a plane to put it on yet.
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Old 10-22-2005, 04:35 AM   #23
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Crap! I am still having trouble posting to and reading this thread. The only way I can get here is by answering emails from wattflyer. Is anyone else having the same problem?
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Old 10-22-2005, 08:05 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by jaguartrax View Post
Pyrock, Before you glue or get rid of the fuselage you just cut out, you could lay the white Foam parts on a dark color floor or sheet and take a picture of the parts with a digital camera from directly overhead and just attach the picture to your next post. Many people will be able to scale the picture or freehand it and make something very similiar to yours. Then we could post our results etc with you. Does this sound easier than making plans? Of course you can also trace around the parts to paper and mail them to people who are interested. Just a thought. Does the 370 brushless motor seem to be the best performer of all the ones you have tested? Which ones have you tried so far? Have you tried a Medusa 12mm brushless? I have one but do not have a plane to put it on yet.
I've tested the following with the 370 (4100kv) being the best:

Park E-FLight 370 (4100kv)
Park E-Flight 370 (3600Kv)
Park E-Flight 400
Fiegao 12mm (5300kv) I think that's the kv
Various small outrunners from Ebay

Want to try:
Mamba 4200 kv
Himax 2015-4100

Here's the pic you requested...


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Old 10-22-2005, 09:52 PM   #25
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Good info, guys
I like the F-22 style configuration. I think I'll try one a bit smaller in size so I can use a small brushless motors such as a CDROM conversion or an IPS brushless.
Below is a link I found showing views and pictures of the F-22.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-22.htm
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