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Old 03-12-2007, 05:16 PM   #26
Maine Flyer
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Bill, I use epoxy thinned with alcohol. It added about 1/2 oz to the fuse when I build my Drake II. AUW ended up at just about 40 ozs. It gave me some piece of mind if I got some water into areas where I didn't notice it.

I'm sure there as many solutions to waterproofing as there are flyers on this forum! A friend of mine had to redo the hull of a Seamaster due to water inside. He ended up with mold in some areas.

Keep up the good work!
Joe
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Old 03-12-2007, 06:05 PM   #27
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Bill, I agree with Maine Flyer. Thinned epoxy works good.
I used to thin it with lacquer thinner, alcohol might work better though.

Maybe even spraying the uncovered structure with rattle can clear?
Anything should be a help.
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Old 03-12-2007, 06:06 PM   #28
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Bill, glad to see you doing so well on the Seabee, hope to see successful flight shots. I wish my own abilites were as advanced as yours.
I wouldn't trust Balsa Loc to be waterproof. Sig Stiksit or Balsarite would probably work better. BTW, I concieved the idea for the "fun build off "contest" on E-Zone including the amateur and pro categories to bring the range of scratch designer/builders into the competition who might otherwise not give it a try. I have never met Pat Tritle or Charlie Manzano, etc. but admire and respect what they do. As to the "powers that be" on E-Zone, I don't know them at all and have no reason to suspect any "conspiracy theories". I appreciate the efforts of all who keep all of these online modelling forums going an am glad to contribute what little I can.
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Old 03-13-2007, 08:04 PM   #29
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Thanks for the comments. I'll have to try the thinned epoxy. Probably adds a good bit of strength too.

EC,
As for conspiracy theory, the only conspiracy, if that, is that people like Martin who do reviews there, have preference with the staff. Its obvious and normal, as theirs this thing we call "buddies" in the world. Still doesn't fly with me, that they are automatically right, and can send insulting PMs to folks they don't know, about things that don't concern them. As far as I'm concerned with that place, when they lift the temp, I'll go back there and defend the false statements he made AFTER I was gone, and they can hit their little magic buttons again if they wish. As for the powers that be there, I didn't want to know them either, but I sure do now.

Bill
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Old 03-14-2007, 05:18 AM   #30
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PD1 or Maine, what type of alcohol do you use?
Also thought about polyurethane. Not sure how well it works to waterproof balsa, but is light. I may glass the bottom areas up to the waterline also.

Seabee
Carved pieces to sculpt the nose section from. In the first pic, they are not glued in place, and only test fit into place. Was a bit of work making all the parts fit that well. The pieces were made from the same 3/8" x 1" balsa stock, shown in the foreground of the pic. I started playing around with ideas, and arrived on a scheme of parts using that stock size, that fit together as if it was meant to be. I plan to carve out some weight from the rear of them, but leave enough thickness for good strength.

In the second pic, the parts are shown in an "exploded" view on the left, and are fit together on the right. The center part, which is set up on an eraser, is the front most part. Additional balsa was glued to this part, to add material to its front face. This part is stacked on top of the part to the right, when assembled. A section of tri-stock was added to the right most part, which provides more material for the seam area, since the area will get thinner once the final sculpting is done. The left most part is the side piece, which glues against the other 2 parts. The parts were pre-sculped to get the nose shape close, before permanently gluing into place.
The other thing in this pic is my antique wooden "H" puzzle. This nose assembly reminded me of it, since just like the H puzzle, it took a good while to figure out how to make it. When I was a kid, I spent hours with the dumb puzzle, and couldn't get the perfect H. Got some lousy looking ones, but dad said that they didn't count.

Did a bit of sheeting in the third pic, since I had to see what some of it would look like with the sheeting. The small patch with blue iron on covering was applied to the tailwheel area after waterproofing the wood underneath, so that I could complete the tailwheel pull cable linkage. The plane will be done in a scheme with this color and white. Normally don't like baby blue, but this scheme looked good, and just as important when you're broke, I have the color.

Bill


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Old 03-14-2007, 10:52 PM   #31
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Bill,
I use Isopropyl Alcohol 91%. Less water in it. 99% would be better if you can get it. I feel it does help strengthen the assembly and I am a bit liberal about applying it!

I have heard that polyurethane works well also. Some use it on glass.

I did glass (with 3/4 oz) the entire hull of my Drake II but found it made it a bit harder for me to cover without bubbles. But if the covering "leaks", the hull is protected by the glass. Works for me!

Joe
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Old 03-16-2007, 01:30 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Maine Flyer View Post
Bill,
I use Isopropyl Alcohol 91%. Less water in it. 99% would be better if you can get it. I feel it does help strengthen the assembly and I am a bit liberal about applying it!

I have heard that polyurethane works well also. Some use it on glass.

I did glass (with 3/4 oz) the entire hull of my Drake II but found it made it a bit harder for me to cover without bubbles. But if the covering "leaks", the hull is protected by the glass. Works for me!

Joe
That's what I thought. Good thing, as everyone has a bottle of isopropyl they can swipe from the medicine compartment. Don't want to buy something special if I don't have to. My LHS owner likes Sig clear dope. The toss up is that epoxy takes effort to mix, but then the dope has to air dry and stinks like hell, and I like things the harden quickly, like 30 min epoxy. I use way to much activator on CA. Harden now! 30 seconds, to a minute, is far to long to wait.

I've heard of all the WBPU used on glass. This is probably the only case, for waterproofing, that I would glass. I'm a big iron-on fan. Good point about the bubbles, since you can't force trapped air through the balsa as easily.

Got a few more pic I'll have to post later to, after taking Fox out for a walk.

Bill
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Old 03-16-2007, 02:10 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Maine Flyer View Post
Bill,
I use Isopropyl Alcohol 91%. Less water in it. 99% would be better if you can get it. I feel it does help strengthen the assembly and I am a bit liberal about applying it!

I have heard that polyurethane works well also. Some use it on glass.

I did glass (with 3/4 oz) the entire hull of my Drake II but found it made it a bit harder for me to cover without bubbles. But if the covering "leaks", the hull is protected by the glass. Works for me!

Joe
I used to do the coffee table tops and hand painted clocks with polyurethane, and before it dried I would pass a lighted propane torch over the surface to draw out the bubbles. DO NOT TORCH THE SURFACE!!!!!!!!
You just pass the flame near the surface Parallel and it works.

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Old 03-16-2007, 03:52 AM   #34
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Hi Bill.
Remember me.

FWIW Denatured Alcohol solvent from the local hardware store is a better choice for thinning epoxy than isopropyl.

Good luck with your build.
Mike
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Old 03-16-2007, 06:25 PM   #35
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Installed and sculpted the nose section. The first pic shows a front and rear view of the assembled parts. I hogged out the rear of these nose parts to save weight, as it looks like I will not need added nose weight to set the CG, and will probably not need to mount the batt all the way forward either.
Scupted to shape in the second pic.

On the "bubbles" thing, we were referring to trapped air underneath iron-on coverings, since the poly coated balsa can no longer pass air through it. I will make sure not to torch any table tops, though.

Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
Hi Bill.
Remember me.

FWIW Denatured Alcohol solvent from the local hardware store is a better choice for thinning epoxy than isopropyl.

Good luck with your build.
Mike
Guess you missed this from my previous post:
Quote from post #9:
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/show...27&postcount=9
BTW,
MikeF, saw you listed as a forum viewer here while I was logged on. Didn't know that you hung out here too.

Maybe you can do me a favor? Tell the folks there about the real reason for the Temp B. I got over there.
I saw MH posting over there, telling false stories as to why it happened. The real reason I got the time off over there, was for posting his picture in my avatar. LOL
I had it saying "professional dork", it dissappeared, so I figured maybe something went wrong, I then reloaded it, and before I could get back to the posts, I saw the the little TB note, and the avatar was gone again. They had put a "watch actions" on my account.

Bill


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Old 03-16-2007, 07:52 PM   #36
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Hi Bill, Maybe useing denatured alcohol works better than lacquer thinner.

It was a long time ago, I had the thinner, so I just went with it.

I thinned the epoxy so it was like water. I just wanted to fill the pores in the balsa, not fill the grain. I didn't have any bubbles with the covering after that.

I think I saw an add for Ultracote where they claim it didn't bubble over other coverings. That might be another solution.

Build looks better and better.
Paul
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Old 03-17-2007, 02:06 AM   #37
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Yup, I guess I missed that you saw me here. I pop over every few days to check out whats going on. Been following your build but mostly skimming and looking at pics. Actually been spending a great deal of time at the Flying Giants site as well. Between the 3 forums I'm not getting any friggin work done at all.

As for the "other site" I figure it's best to let it go. I missed the MH avatar trick. Kind of funny, but you had to know that would get you in trouble.

On all the forums I figure it's best to have a thick skin and try to keep a cool head. Can't let your own self worth be dictated by a bunch of people you don't really even know. Personally I'm just trying to hang a low profile and not stir things up.

Look what one poorly thought out sentence did for you and me!:p

Keep up the good work. I'll be watching.

Mike
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Old 03-17-2007, 07:18 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
Yup, I guess I missed that you saw me here. I pop over every few days to check out whats going on. Been following your build but mostly skimming and looking at pics. Actually been spending a great deal of time at the Flying Giants site as well. Between the 3 forums I'm not getting any friggin work done at all.

As for the "other site" I figure it's best to let it go. I missed the MH avatar trick. Kind of funny, but you had to know that would get you in trouble.

On all the forums I figure it's best to have a thick skin and try to keep a cool head. Can't let your own self worth be dictated by a bunch of people you don't really even know. Personally I'm just trying to hang a low profile and not stir things up.

Look what one poorly thought out sentence did for you and me!:p

Keep up the good work. I'll be watching.

Mike
Thanks for the compliments Mike. Also, that's why I like to add pics. I occasionally read things, after looking at the pics, if they're are any in the first place.

Been adding the last few stringers, and like any scratch build made without plans, I've been sanding and padding out a few areas, to tweak the shape. Pretty much ready to sheet the plane now. I waterproofed all of the lower framework, and the inside of the tailboom hull bottom. I will add the front hull bottom next and waterfroof it, before finishing the remainder of the sheeting.

The other place:
What amazed me is that it took 5 seconds! They were watching. I mean really watching! They sure knew it was him, and there were only 2 pics of him on the entire site. What got me in trouble was the he is buddys with the staff there. That's why he has no qualms about sending anybody a nasty PM, even when he doesn't know them. I agree that you have to keep a cool head and lay low. This case was different, since I knew that the guy could get away with murder there. Either way, he got the exposure for it that he deserved. I knew who his friends were, and don't get intimidated by it. What's not worth it, is to put up with that crap, and keep quiet.

They left the profile statement that I put with it, since it looks funny and bad on me, without the avatar. Not cool. Well, when I get back there, the avatar's going back up. Look for it an about 2 months.


Bill
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Old 03-17-2007, 02:21 PM   #39
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Maybe I'm too late, but for waterproofing I like to use brush-on water-based polyurethane varnish. I use it to stick down my glass cloth, too. It is possibly not as strong as epoxy, but vastly more convenient, less expensive, and doesn't stink. I fly slimers, too, and it is fuel-proof. Film coverings bond well to it.

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Old 03-17-2007, 02:54 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Jim Casey View Post
Maybe I'm too late, but for waterproofing I like to use brush-on water-based polyurethane varnish. I use it to stick down my glass cloth, too. It is possibly not as strong as epoxy, but vastly more convenient, less expensive, and doesn't stink. I fly slimers, too, and it is fuel-proof. Film coverings bond well to it.
I found a can of clear poly, and have been using it. I doped the first coat, and then added the poly for the second coat, once I found the can. I still can get in there to coat the hull bottoms. Haven't put the sides on yet, since I plan to add a good few coats.

Bill
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Old 03-18-2007, 07:17 AM   #41
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I've got the nose just about the way it should look, with a few coats of sanded primer, and some filler. Been using this DHP filler that the LHS just got in, which seems to work better than the Hobbico that I had been using, and the Goldberg filler.

Painted the steerable/retractable tailwheel assembly with aluminum paint. Looks fairly close to scale, although the fork angle is too straight, and it doesn't have the mechanisms above the main body casting, that the real one has. Still has functional axle bolts (#0-80 screws) like the full size plane, a top jam nut on the steering spindle, and a simulated adjuster on the top rear, like the full size plane. Still much better than just a piece of wire and a wheel.

Finished the main cabin hull bottom sheeting, and waterproofing the inside surface. I made sure to coat everything from the cabin floor and below, all of the fuse and tailboom formers, and the main center keel. This plane should be able to take a mild soaking, without exploding. I remember how a Dumas boat that I build years ago had leaked and swelled, even after I had thought it was sealed on the outside, with paint. Gotta coat the inside surfaces too. The cabin sidewall sheeting will be coated once installed also. Pretty much every inch of the structure will be coated, by completion. You don't usually get this with an ARF. I will have to coat the tailboom sheeting inner surface, before applying the sheeting, since the area will be inaccessible afterwards.

The front hull is actually curved in like a displacement hull, although it can't be seen well in the third pic. A small portion of this feature can be seen in the first pic, in front of the masking paper. This will not only make the hull look scale, but hopefully will also displace water better than a flat pan hull.

Bill


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Old 03-19-2007, 07:05 AM   #42
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Look what I found buried in the house! Thin white cardboard covers for my building board. Anyone who's seen my threads, knows that beat to crap building board right away. I even found three of these covers. The make the pics look better, and not small parts will not be camoflauged into the board surface.

Added the window frames today. The "glass" will install from the inside. I'll need to make a mold for the front window, to put a bit of curve into the clear plastic sheet. The cabin sheeting will overlap the side windows, all the way to the front window pillar. This will make the outer surface coincident with the the cabin sides, and the added balsa thickness will provide a bit of latitude to sand the curve that begins at the top of the window frames, which will blend into the roof. The window frames and fillets were made using basswood, light ply, and hard balsa. The idea here is to have a harder material than the outer layer of balsa sheeting that will be applied and cut out, so that it will provide a stiff guide to cut the windows out of the sheeting, and will also strengthen the frames.

The more these details are tackled one at a time, the more I realize why this plane is rarely built, and when built, not often highly detailed. One good thing, is that there is never a shortage of different tasks that can be done. If your not in the mood to to one thing, there's plenty of other things that can be done, and many of the tasks do not need to be done in a specific order. This build is really like building several planes, or at least several major projects, broken into the cabin - detailed interior, tailboom - tail feathers, retracts, wing assembly with floats, and removable roof and "engine" cover.

For motivation, I look at these videos of an rc Seabee from time to time, the same size as this plane, built from modified RCM plans:
http://www.flyingmodels.org/showtime/SeeBee_h.htm

The main balsa sheets for the tailboom have also been cut out, and waterproofed inside. They will cover the sides of the boom, up to the the stringer where the boom curves steeply over to the top surface. This remaining top area will be sheeted with individual panels for each section between the formers, like the real plane. The boom angle changes between the last several formers, at each former, requiring the use of separate sheets.

I also ran the wire for the rudder tail light. Gotta do that before the boom is sheeted. I have the wire end sticking out of an opening in the boom where the front frame of the vertical stab will glue into, and a string tethered to it, which routes out of the exit hole in the rear of the boom. This way, I'll be able to pull the tail light wire through the boom with this string, and then solder it to the existing wire that exits through the front v-stab frame mounting opening.

Next pics should show the tailboom sheeted.

Bill


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Old 03-21-2007, 04:10 AM   #43
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I was ready to start sheeting, and I slowed myself down, to add needed insets to support the sheeting, and sanded and padded out some areas on the boom, to get the shape correct. Usually I get in a big rush at this stage, but it will pay off later on. From a top view, the boom sides are straight. My boom had a slight curve going inward at the beginning of it, and the rear area had some contours that were a bit off. They are now corrected, and I won't have to look at it later, with afterthoughts. A build with hand drawn plans and hand cut parts does not quite go together like a CAD drawn laser cut kit.

In the first pic, some insets were added to the front seam where the sheeting will butt against the nose block, for support. The second pic shows the ply insets for the wing strut attacment clevises, which are easier to install now, than later. I think I finally have everything ready, and the sheeting is pre-cut and waterproofed, ready to go on.

Bill


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Old 03-21-2007, 11:58 PM   #44
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Sheeted the main cabin. Turned out pretty well, and since the pic it has been filled and sanded smooth. I used reinforcement strips inside the cabin to push out a few low spots, which are ran across the sheeting grain direction. They stiffened the areas so well, that I filled all the areas between the formers and stringers with these stiffeners. The plane is being sheeted with a thick grade of 1/32" balsa, which is still a good bit lighter than 1/16" sheeting. Later, the cabin interior walls will be sheeted with very light 1/32" sheeting, and a scale interior added.

At this point, I can pretty well estimate an AUW of 45oz, with a 51" wing span. This will give a wing loading of about 18oz/sq-ft, which is high enough as it is. This is the main reason for the 1/32 sheeting.

Bill


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Old 03-22-2007, 08:35 AM   #45
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Mostly finished with sheeting now. Since the pics, I've added the right side sheeting of the boom, and have the top section of the boom to complete. In the pic, the lower rear of the tailboom sheeting had not been glued yet. It is now, as it was a secondary operation, where a relief cut was needed at the rounded step in the boom, where the tailwheel is located. It was then dampened and curled under the bottom, and glued in place. The top of the boom will be sheeted in 3 sections, like the full size plane, since there are 2 points where the contour changes. The sheeting was a procedure, since its difficult to do it all in one gluing session. The more time taken to determine your procedures large panel sheeting schemes, the better.

I also decided that the front cabin structure was strong enough to cut away the passenger side of the dash, back to the first cross support. This area is supposed to be open, for passengers to exit through the docking door. The other side is where the dash and instrument panel are located. The dash had 2 cross supports originally, so if removed 1/4 of the dash, going back to the first support, to make the interior look more scale. To add strength, I added another front cabin cross support at the level where the false floor will be mounted. On the real Seabee, the right front cabin area is open all the way to the nose, for ease of exit through the docking door on the passenger side, but I'm not going to eliminate the entire dash , since I want the cross support that is still there.

I'm really glad that I added numerous extra sheeting support splints that run from stringer to stringer, in each bay between the formers in the tailboom, in essence adding extra formers for the sheeting by making a perimeter support. They were added since the last pics posted. Since this heavy 1/32" sheeting is not exactly as stiff as 1/16", the support was good. I did not press the sheeting in hard, to contact every spot, since I was more concerned with a wave free smooth contour. What I did afterwards, is drop bomb thick CA onto these splints, and other spots where there was no contact, to fill the voids. Without these added splints, I would have had a very springy sheeting job, but it is quite stiff now, since it has many supports points. I don't do everything exactly 100% orthodox, since I'm more concerned with the final result, than having my build published as master modelling quality bare bones work.
(I've never seen the thick CA drop bomb fill method described in mags)

Bill


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Old 03-22-2007, 01:41 PM   #46
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Bill, it keeps getting better.
Because I'm too cheap to buy the thick CA I tried this.
Use baking soda as a filler, then drop a few drops of CA on it. It fills voids, and acts as an accerator for the CA.
Just don't have your eyes too close, it kicks off and smokes, the smoke irritates the eyes. Don't ask me how I know.

I put baking soda in a squeeze bulb and I use it just as an accelerator as well.
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Old 03-22-2007, 04:04 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by pd1 View Post
Bill, it keeps getting better.
Because I'm too cheap to buy the thick CA I tried this.
Use baking soda as a filler, then drop a few drops of CA on it. It fills voids, and acts as an accerator for the CA.
Just don't have your eyes too close, it kicks off and smokes, the smoke irritates the eyes. Don't ask me how I know.

I put baking soda in a squeeze bulb and I use it just as an accelerator as well.
Thanks for the comments PD1.
BTW,
I once got the bright idea of mixing a bit of plaster with CA on a piece of cardboard, to fix a chip in porcelain. I did not know that it (I think the lime in the plaster) was an accelerator. The plan was to mix it with my finger and apply it. It started smoking on my finger!

Here's a more recent pic of the sheeting. The tailboom sheeting went well. A small balsa patch which needs to be sanded, barely seen at the top of the beginning of the boom where it blends into the cabin, is the only spot I had to pad out a bit with balsa to fill a low spot. The boom sides sheeted so well that I only had to sand a small amount of balsa thickness to remove any waves. They were certainly more work to sheet than the cabin, but actually required less sanding than the cabin to straigten, and no filler as of yet. Sheeting around an area with continuous curves actually keeps the balsa from getting dimples and high spots, since the curves add strength to the sheeting.

Bill


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Old 03-22-2007, 04:28 PM   #48
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That's looking great Bill! A 2:35 AM Post? You need to get some sleep so you don't pass out in a blob of CA. I would hate to see the next picture of it glued to your forehead.

Tom
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Old 03-22-2007, 04:33 PM   #49
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Tom, that's a terrible thing to say.
Imagine how much that would hurt, having to cut his forehead away to save the plane.

But it would look funny though.
Probably get printed in the tabloids too , "man has giant airplane growing out of head".
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Old 03-22-2007, 04:35 PM   #50
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Maybe we could all chip in and buy a snorkel and a tub of CA Debonder.

Tom
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