The Eternal Debate: Club Membership & Insurance

[Sam_K]

I have started this thread as a spill-over from a debate that started in the Project Globetrotter Mission thread near the end of page 11.

As I stated in that thread. I am new to the RC hobby and bought my first plane a few weeks ago. I have already spent a lot more than I originally intended on my first plane, radio and charger setup and I simply cannot justify the cost to join the local club.

To put my financial situation into perspective, I am 31, I have a mortgage, my wife and I have just had our 1st child who is 4 months old, I am running my own business which has only been going for 11 months, the plan is that my wife will not be returning to work probably until the children are school age. For at least the next 5 years I am solely responsible for over half a million dollars in debt.

Now, I am not in dire straights, everything is proceeding according to plan, but things are very tight financially for me at the moment. Probably not the best time to get started in RC flying but I do believe in living my life as fully as possible.

Added to this, my wife is actually somewhat interested in RC flying. For the first time ever I have a chance to share a hobby with my wife! I don't know about you guys, but this is really important and quite an exciting prospect for me. If I were to join a club then I would have to pay for 2 memberships so that she can fly with me. I know for a fact that she would not want to part with that money but would simply opt not to fly and that is NOT what I want.

I do understand the benefits that a club offers. I have nothing against clubs. If money were no object I would happily join my local club just so that I could go and hang out with the guys there, talk about RC, show off my models and have a permanent place to fly where the general public will never get in the way.

What I find thoroughly objectionable though is people who take the attitude that anyone who flies an RC plane without being a member of a club is an irresponsible maverick who will inevitably bring the hobby into disrepute and ruin the fun of respectable citizens who have joined a club.

I fly my moderate size, slow, electric powered plane (Multiplex Easy Star) at a public park. I have fully read (not skimmed) the MAAA General Model Rules and have also read the CASA CASR Part 101g and the accompanying Advisory Circular on the flying of model aircraft (can all of your club members say the same?). I know my rights and responsibilities, I am not breaking the law and I am not exposing other park users to any significant risk.

I fully observe the 30m rule and I accept that other park users have right of way at all times. If I cannot garantee proper observance of the 30m rule due to the presence of other park users then I pack up and go home.

In addition to all that, at the location where I fly, the plane is always at least 450m from the nearest house or public road. Plus I have a 2.4Ghz radio so unexpected interference is a non-issue.

I have spent more than 20 hours flying a flight simulator using my transmitter as the controller. In the total of 2 hours (8 flights) that I have flown my plane I have yet to lose control or crash it (other than my very first hand launch which went straight into the ground). I can already confidently say that the plane is fully under my control at all times. I have achieved all this without any kind of one on one instruction. Just reading up on the Internet and practicing with the sim.

I can unreservedly say that a child riding a bicycle in the park would represent a greater public safety risk than me flying my plane. I don't see anyone jumping up and down about cyclists not having 3rd party insurance. (not to mention adult cyclists on the road)

There is no law that states that you must belong to any club, association or have insurance to fly model aircraft. After having read sermons from some of the safety zealots I was actually quite surprised to read the laws and official guidelines regarding model aircraft as they are actually very reasonable and not heavily restrictive at all.

[Son of Paleface]

Well said Mate , I agree with all youv'e said and I wish you and your wife every success Regards Ian

[SaucerGuy]

Playing devils advocate here, clubs do have their purpose, I'm mainly looking at killer flying fields I don't get access to if I was not a member. That would also mean, being a member, I'm also paying AMA to be involved. I fly in a field that's sandwitched between a highschool and a housing complex, no 450 meters at all, the majority of it has power lines overhead to add to the fun and it's getting smaller and smaller the more performance aircraft I'm flying.

Parks, well, they are for the slow flying, very slow flying birds and I tend to avoid them because I get too many people that just run out on them while I'm flying my 10 minute pack thinking the plane is just something flittering in the air "new word, hehe". You never know if a servo can fail, if the pack decides to dislodge, or if the motor itself falls off due to extreem vibration on the mount, not to mention a whole ant hill of other things that can go wrong you have no control over no matter how good of a pilot or builder or pre-flight checker you are. Stuff happens and it's not necessarily about your skills at all, it's about the odds and they do catch up with you.

I'm getting into more high performance aircraft, the likes of which are faster then what's rolling by at the local drag strip car wise, so I may indeed have to join a club, put up with the AMA fees just to gain access to a much larger field unabated. I do so just for the field, can absolutely care less about the rest of it all and I'm paying money for that access so essentially, if I show up, stay the hell out of my way, I'm there to fly.

Good thread you started, glad you created it, I hope others contribute as well.

Brian

[Sam_K]

I do recognise that there are plenty of situations were you definitely should not fly in a public space. Large models, fast models, heavy models, most IC engines, etc. In fact I do recognise that only a small section of all models available to buy are actually appropriate as park flyers.

The possibility of equipment failure is why we have the 30m rule and only fly small light planes.

[Ribcracker]

Sam,
You've stated your case eloquently and I am in complete agreement with you. Your common sense regarding safety is impeccable and I can see no advantage to joining a club if you have a suitable area in which to fly. The camaraderie benefit of club membership can be had right here at WattFlyer.
Welcome to the club. You're among your kind and I can see you'll be a terrific asset. Thanks for showing up. We're glad you're here.
I look forward to your next post.
Peace, Bud

[mickey t]

Originally Posted by Sam_K

I have fully read (not skimmed) the MAAA General Model Rules and have also read the CASA CASR Part 101g and the accompanying Advisory Circular on the flying of model aircraft.

Sam,
I applaud the fact that you read MAAA General Model Rules and follow them accordingly, a lot of people can't say the same. As a member of two clubs, I believe they have so much to offer, both in experience and inspiration.

It has been said somewhere else in this forum that clubs are "too darn exclusive", I beg to differ, sure, there are the small minority with their head stuck up their a*se, but that's everywhere. The basic majority are there for the same reason you are, to enjoy the hobby.

As a competition flyer for the past 20 years, I see the club fees/ insurance as a necessity, and great value at only $5 a week. Please bare in mind, that I don't look down on anyone who chooses not to join a club, it's their choice.

MT

[Sam_K]

I am definately not one of these people who think clubs are too snooty or exclusive. I really do wish I could afford to join my local club for all the reasons I stated above, but it would cost me just shy of $500 a year which I just can't justify right now, especially when it is not an absolute requirement for me to enjoy the hobby.

[Rabbitcreekok]

I don't know how the MAAA works down under, but you can join the AMA, receive the benefits of belonging, including insurance, the magazine and support from the various programs within the AMA without joining a club.

The clubs just require AMA membership to join.

By joining the AMA, you are supporting Model Aviation. Without the AMA, we would not have the frequencies and guidelines we have, which would make it difficult, if not possible to fly in a park or anywhere else. I would suppose that applies to your MAAA also.

If we enjoy this hobby, and we must or we would not spend our hard earned money on it, we really should support the group that makes it possible.

[Sam_K]

My understanding, and I would be happy to be told otherwise, is that you cannot buy membership directly from the MAAA, you can only become a member of the MAAA by joining an affiliated club.

If you can join the MAAA directly then there is no information on their website about how to go about it.

[Rabbitcreekok]

Sam, apparently the WSA will allow folks to join without joining a club in some circumstances. I don't know if other state organizations will allow that. I guess the MAAA is really different from our AMA.

[SaucerGuy]

Just an idea. What if a new form of AMA MAA, or what ever is created which eliminates the buracacy, kepts costs further down for membership and was redone in a manner to allow participants discounts on trade goods and services as well as being able to fly at a pre-destined grid of fields.

There is alot to be said about improving any system, it's when one has an exclusive, such as AMA, there is nothing for it to compete, or hold itself up to. I think there is room for growth here and there can be much more out there should some individual or organization take up the task.

[mickey t]

Sam,
you can actually join the MAS without club affiliation, though not advertised.
A friend of mine did this a few years ago while waiting for a spot to open in the club he was wanting to join.

If it's just the insurance you want, why not join the New South Wales Free Flight Society (NSWFFS). With no actual club premises the club fees are minimal, and you will get all the insurance benefits. Fact is my insurance is payed through the NSWFFS.

MT

[Son of Paleface]

Well how about this , does the Maaa and 'clubs' accept someone with a Public Liability insurance policy similar in cover to the maaa one..........I dont think so

[Rabbitcreekok]

Originally Posted by Son of Paleface

Well how about this , does the Maaa and 'clubs' accept someone with a Public Liability insurance policy similar in cover to the maaa one..........I dont think so

I would guess that the problem would be that a fellow could show them a policy that was in force for say $2,000,000 today and them cancel the policy the next week and not have any coverage. I know some folks around my home town that would do that in a New York minute.

[Boomerang]

I’ll comment on the club membership subject seeing my comments seem to have wound up Sam’s spring. Firstly the comments were not a shot at Sam. If everyone with a model were as careful as Sam I’m sure there would be no problems. I can sympathise with his financial situation as well although thankfully my days of paying a mortgage (or 2) whilst supporting a wife & two children are behind me. Sam’s running a business, me too, no one said life was easy.

but it would cost me just shy of $500 a year

$500 per year for club membership? Each!? What the? If so and money is tight I think you are looking at the wrong club. MAS fees this year are $119 if you receive your newsletter by email and a club which specialises in smaller electric models that I have recently been involved in starting charges $25 per year. Mickey T mentioned the Free Flight Society, they charge $95 per year. With a $25 club fee that’s $2.30 per week. Less than a cup of coffee for the peace of mind of being insured if something goes horribly wrong.

I really do wish I could afford to join my local club for all the reasons I stated above

You really would like to join a club if you could afford it Sam? If you think your budget can stretch to $2.30 per week send me a PM, I’m inviting you to visit our club, fly at our field insured free under part of the MAAA’s insurance policy intended to cover noobies having a go at club fields. If you like the guys join, if not don’t bother, your choice. Wife wants to fly? Sure, why not a special ‘Family rate’. Clubs were started when modeling was expensive, you had to build your own models and it was difficult to learn to fly them. One ‘problem’ with electric park flyer type models is they are so cheap they make club membership look expensive.

<O:pNo, you cannot join the MAAA directly. The way the MAAA is structured is that it only has ten members, the state associations. Don’t ask me why, I was not around more than 60 years ago when it was formed.

Insurance by other than the MAAA? I don’t know about you guys but I go to the field to fly, I’m not qualified to assess insurance policies. So it has to be kept simple and it is, no MAAA card, no fly unless you are a noobie having a try as outlined above.

<O:pIt has been mentioned many times in the past that the MAAA is ‘no good’, it sucks, this is not fair, that is not fair. You could probably quote exactly the same comments about the AMA. And the BMFA. And the NZMAA. And the.........

Every now & then some bunny sticks his head up & says ‘stuff em, let’s start our own national body’. Usually just after that same bunny does not get his own way or has broken some rule & has been chastised. He scurries back into the bunker with a few of his mates to come up with a plan. Then they find out how much work it is, how much time it will take, how much money it will cost, how most of the work is done by volunteers for little or no reward, how the government agencies they will have to deal with don’t want to know them because they are happy with what the (insert national body of choice here) have been doing. Was it the Sport Flyers Association in the US some years ago? Where is it now? Just be thankful that organisations like the AMA and the MAAA do exist and the volunteers do the work we take for granted.

Have I always been a club member? No. Only for about 35 years. Used to fly down the park with friends with our control line models, had lots of fun. A friend at school invited me to join a model club he was involved in, and I had lots more fun. Why? Because I was doing something I loved to do with others doing the same thing. Ignore insurance & models for the moment. Most people are social and enjoy being with other people with similar interests, doing similar things. How do we do this? We band together with similar minded people to achieve things we could not do as individuals. As Ribcracker pointed out Wattflyer is a club of sorts. Sure, there will be someone in whatever club that you will not get on with but that applies to anything. Clubs tend to be a breeding ground for sensitive egos. You just have to learn to ignore them.

I don’t fly park flyers exclusively, I fly bigger faster models as well that need proper fields, club fields as SaucerGuy is beginning to find out. Some clubs, as seen in many threads on the forums, look at electric models as second class citizens. Fortunately the clubs I belong to do not. I’m happy to be a club member and believe that the lone flyers are missing out on something if they do not have anyone to share their fun with. But if you want to fly down the park by yourself that’s your business. – John.

[Sam_K]

Originally Posted by Boomerang

$500 per year for club membership? Each!? What the? If so and money is tight I think you are looking at the wrong club.

That is the price for two memberships, the fee to join my local club is $230 per person.

They are an electric only club that fly in a nearby public park. The flying field area of the park is generally closed to the public and (once you've earned their trust and get given a key) club members can fly there any time of the day 7 days a week. They don't have any "facilities" to maintain there, just a locked metal box on a pole that contains the frequency board. They mow the grass themselves for the runway area.

Originally Posted by Boomerang

MAS fees this year are $119 if you receive your newsletter by email and a club which specialises in smaller electric models that I have recently been involved in starting charges $25 per year.

So that'd be $300 all up for both of us? That is a lot cheaper than my local.

Originally Posted by Boomerang

Mickey T mentioned the Free Flight Society, they charge $95 per year.

Is this $95 on top of MASNSW fees? If so then that is in a similar ballpark to my local club.

Originally Posted by Boomerang

With a $25 club fee that’s $2.30 per week. Less than a cup of coffee for the peace of mind of being insured if something goes horribly wrong. You really would like to join a club if you could afford it Sam? If you think your budget can stretch to $2.30 per week send me a PM, I’m inviting you to visit our club, fly at our field insured free under part of the MAAA’s insurance policy intended to cover noobies having a go at club fields. If you like the guys join, if not don’t bother, your choice. Wife wants to fly? Sure, why not a special ‘Family rate’.

Where is this club? Location is going to be important. Where I fly at the local park it's less than 10 minutes drive down the road. I can go down there, fly out a full battery (35 minutes) and be home again in under an hour. I have done this a few times at 6:30 to 7am on weekday mornings before work. If I take the family for a fly on the weekend, and the baby starts being difficult, we can be home again in 15 minutes. This is a significant factor in whether or not we could go for a fly on any given day.

If it's a bit of a drive, and/or if I can't go there at odd times like sunrise on weekdays, then going for a fly becomes a major production with a 4 month old baby in tow and it will end up being maybe every 3rd or 4th weekend only. That really is not nearly often enough for me.

If I join the club just for the insurance and then fly at the local park, my understanding is that I will still not actually be insured. MAAA insurance is only valid if you have explicit permission from the land owners to fly. Now in my case that would be local government and I doubt they would actually give me explicit permission to fly in writing because it would then make them liable to other park users for my flying activities. In fact I am afraid to ask for permission because raising the issue with them may force them to issue an explicit denial of permission and then I cannot fly there at all.

Originally Posted by Boomerang

Clubs were started when modeling was expensive, you had to build your own models and it was difficult to learn to fly them. One ‘problem’ with electric park flyer type models is they are so cheap they make club membership look expensive.

<o>:p</o>No, you cannot join the MAAA directly. The way the MAAA is structured is that it only has ten members, the state associations. Don’t ask me why, I was not around more than 60 years ago when it was formed.

Thanks for the info.

Originally Posted by Boomerang

Insurance by other than the MAAA? I don’t know about you guys but I go to the field to fly, I’m not qualified to assess insurance policies. So it has to be kept simple and it is, no MAAA card, no fly unless you are a noobie having a try as outlined above.

I completely understand and agree with you there.

<o></o>

Originally Posted by Boomerang

Have I always been a club member? No. Only for about 35 years. Used to fly down the park with friends with our control line models, had lots of fun. A friend at school invited me to join a model club he was involved in, and I had lots more fun. Why? Because I was doing something I loved to do with others doing the same thing. Ignore insurance & models for the moment. Most people are social and enjoy being with other people with similar interests, doing similar things. How do we do this? We band together with similar minded people to achieve things we could not do as individuals. As Ribcracker pointed out Wattflyer is a club of sorts. Sure, there will be someone in whatever club that you will not get on with but that applies to anything. Clubs tend to be a breeding ground for sensitive egos. You just have to learn to ignore them.

I don’t fly park flyers exclusively, I fly bigger faster models as well that need proper fields, club fields as SaucerGuy is beginning to find out. Some clubs, as seen in many threads on the forums, look at electric models as second class citizens. Fortunately the clubs I belong to do not. I’m happy to be a club member and believe that the lone flyers are missing out on something if they do not have anyone to share their fun with. But if you want to fly down the park by yourself that’s your business. – John.

As I said in the original post, the social aspect is the main reason I would want to join a club. A good, dedicated field would be the second reason (as long as it's convenient to use). Insurance is a distant 3rd.

I really don't have a problem at all with clubs. I don't have a problem with their value for money either, that doesn't mean I can afford it right now though.

My only problem is when people insinuate that I am doing the wrong thing by not joining a club. You said some people look at electric model flyers as second class citizens. Well this is the same kind of thing, except it's club members looking down at non-club members as second class citizens.

But we are legitimate RC enthusiasts as much as anyone else.

[mickey t]

Sam,
the NSWFFS is in no way connected with MAS, so the $95 is the for insurance and the newsletter they send out bi-monthly.

MT

[ExtremeRC]

$230.00 club membership and its a local park, electric only with a frequency board and a gate?? Do they pay a lease to the council? Thats very expensive compared to the established Vic clubs which have loads of facilities.

[Geoff_Gino]

Hi All

This is a debate that I have been avoiding at all cost. I know for certain that I'll wrinkle a few noses, but I suppose this is what these forums are all about.

Being South African I'm afraid I'll quote the costs in ZAR which currently is standing at about ZAR 7-50 for a US$.

I have public liabilty cover to the tune of ZAR 5 000 000-00 which is part of my short term cover (Car, household etc.) and as a member of the SAMAA have additional cover to ZAR 2 000 000-00.

What many members do NOT realise is that the excess on the SAMAA policy is ZAR 15 000-00, which needs to be paid up front in the case of a claim against you. Very few people that I fly with can afford this and of course if negligence is proved you'll be that out of pocket plus the civil claim which you'll no doubt lose as well.

Food for thought. !!

Also in South Africa the policy only covers registered flying clubs and unlike the USA you are NOT covered while flying in public spaces.

This one is for the "Park Flyers" - no matter how carefull you are, or whether the Insurance pays out or not, will you be able to live with yourself if you should happen to blind a child who's curiosity got the better of him even if it was an accident or the child's fault.

[jeholliday]

Sam, you have received some good advice in the posts so far. If you stay with your electric powered plane all you need to do is check with your liability insurance provider. Here in the states(USA) AMA is secondary insurance for those that have no home owners or liability insurance. I wish that we could get the courts to make people be responsible for their own actions, like running, walking or riding into the path of a model airplane. I have had that happen at an organized field with fellow club members. DOC Holliday

[Sam_K]

Originally Posted by Geoff_Gino

What many members do NOT realise is that the excess on the SAMAA policy is ZAR 15 000-00, which needs to be paid up front in the case of a claim against you. Very few people that I fly with can afford this and of course if negligence is proved you'll be that out of pocket plus the civil claim which you'll no doubt lose as well.

Food for thought. !!

Also in South Africa the policy only covers registered flying clubs and unlike the USA you are NOT covered while flying in public spaces.

I would bet that a lot of Australians don't realise they are not covered by their MAAA insurance when flying on public land unless they have received specific approval from local government to fly there.

Originally Posted by Geoff_Gino

This one is for the "Park Flyers" - no matter how carefull you are, or whether the Insurance pays out or not, will you be able to live with yourself if you should happen to blind a child who's curiosity got the better of him even if it was an accident or the child's fault.

Would you be able to live with yourself if you ran over that child in your car because it ran out into the traffic to chase a ball? You still drive your car don't you?

Living is risky. Everything we do is a calculated risk. We all take lots of risks every day, we just don't get uptight about it because they are deemed as socially acceptable.

IMHO parkflyers are pretty damn low on the "everyday risks" scale. The only difference is that you don't have the majority of the populace taking that risk everyday and therefore absolving you of the responsibility of the decision for the risk because you are just going along with the crowd.

At the field where I fly, it is a designated "dogs off the leash" area. Anyone who goes there at any time of the day is at several orders of magnitude more risk of being attacked by a dog than being injured by my plane. But no-one has dog walkers insurance and no-one seems to think twice about the risk of letting their dog off the leash or walking in the park in the presence of other peoples dogs.

Just the other day I was there and a woman had 6 large dogs which were all off the leash. If those dogs got over-excited and attacked someone that woman would have zero chance of bringing them under control.

I like the dogs, they make my plane look like safety on a stick with extra safe sauce on top.

[Sam_K]

Originally Posted by mickey t

Sam,
the NSWFFS is in no way connected with MAS, so the $95 is the for insurance and the newsletter they send out bi-monthly.

MT

Is this insurance still properly applicable to a full RC plane? Got any links to the policy?

More importantly, is it valid on public land without requireing explicit permission to fly?

[Sam_K]

Originally Posted by ExtremeRC

$230.00 club membership and its a local park, electric only with a frequency board and a gate?? Do they pay a lease to the council? Thats very expensive compared to the established Vic clubs which have loads of facilities.

I really don't know the breakdown of the club fee portion. I guess I should shop around more for a club, but a long drive to the field is pretty unattractive.

[Sam_K]

Originally Posted by jeholliday

Sam, you have received some good advice in the posts so far. If you stay with your electric powered plane all you need to do is check with your liability insurance provider. Here in the states(USA) AMA is secondary insurance for those that have no home owners or liability insurance. I wish that we could get the courts to make people be responsible for their own actions, like running, walking or riding into the path of a model airplane. I have had that happen at an organized field with fellow club members. DOC Holliday

I have read lots of people from the states mention the home owners insurance thing.

But I've never heard any Australian person talk about such an option for us. I don't remember ever reading anything in my home and contents insurance about being covered for activities that are conducted away from the home, other than certain types of items being covered in case of loss or theft when travelling.

I don't really know, but my guess is our home insurance industry is different here and doesn't generally cover public liability away from the home.

[mickey t]

Sam,
the NSWFFS is registered through the MAAA, MAS is also registered through the MAAA, it's the same insurance policy for both state bodies. If you Google New South Wales Free Flight Society you will find their home page, or if you PM me I can put you in touch with the Pres. who is a friend of mine.

MT