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Old 11-08-2007, 12:35 AM   #26
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I have some 2" pink foam sitting here in front of me saying "I want to fly" so I am going to get started on the sponsons at least. I was wondering if anyone has tried to coat the bottom of the sponsons with a think layer of fiberglass? That would also give them more strength overall and also stand up well to wear.

I looked at Elmer's foam board again tonight and decided I will just be patient and wait for the depron to arrive...

Rick
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Old 11-08-2007, 01:32 AM   #27
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I dont know of anyone that has done a glassed bottom but I cant think of any reason it wont work just fine.

If Duct tape works, the glass has to be better

Larry
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Old 11-08-2007, 02:24 AM   #28
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I found some Sumo glue and you are right that it is very difficult to get out of the bottle unless you have superhuman hands. Go figure!

Rick
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Old 11-08-2007, 05:02 PM   #29
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I heard that Gorilla brand glue is now available in a "clear" version that dries mostly white. Havent tried it yet so I dont have any first hand experience but it sounds promising.

Larry
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Old 11-08-2007, 08:10 PM   #30
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Hi Larry, it would be good to see those pictures when you get a chance (nudge, nudge :-)

I have been reviewing the drawings and planning the build so of course I have some more questions.

To mount the sponsons do you cut a 'v' shaped notch in the top and then glue them to the outer joints of the 'w'? I can't quite figure out what you've done from the picture that's there.

What so you recommend for servos? It looks like a a lot of surface area on the elevons and rudder so it might be too much for something like HS-55s. Also do you usually wrap them with tape and then glue them to the top of the foam?

I have an outrunner that I'm going to try first that works great with a 2S-2100 mah battery and a 10 x 4.7 APC prop and I have extras of all those available. Will I have enough clearance for the 10" prop? I was thinking of making the sponsons 3.5" high instead of 3" to give a bit more clearance but I won't do that if I don't have to. I can go with 8 x 4 and 3S-1350 battery with that motor if I have to but I really like the 2S setup.

Well I suppose those are enough questions for one posting as I don't want to distract you from getting those pictures on here!

My depron has left the U.S. apparently so I hopefully will see it soon.

RM
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Old 11-09-2007, 03:10 AM   #31
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Hear you go I took shots of all the details I could think of. If I missed anything let me know.

To mount the sponsons do you cut a 'v' shaped notch in the top and then glue them to the outer joints of the 'w'? I can't quite figure out what you've done from the picture that's there.
Yes - see the pics below. The angles dont have to be perfect - the Gorilla glue will expand to fill in any gaps.

What so you recommend for servos? It looks like a a lot of surface area on the elevons and rudder so it might be too much for something like HS-55s. Also do you usually wrap them with tape and then glue them to the top of the foam?
I have been useing HS55's with great success. They seem to have plenty of power. I have stripped out several of them after crashes tho. I like the '55's because they are cheep and have enough power, but also because if you bump a surface while loading etc it will NOT automatically strip the gears like some of the small servos do.

I have an outrunner that I'm going to try first that works great with a 2S-2100 mah battery and a 10 x 4.7 APC prop and I have extras of all those available. Will I have enough clearance for the 10" prop? I was thinking of making the sponsons 3.5" high instead of 3" to give a bit more clearance but I won't do that if I don't have to. I can go with 8 x 4 and 3S-1350 battery with that motor if I have to but I really like the 2S setup.
Mine has enough ground clearance for a 16" prop so you'll be fine

Infact, on my next one Ive been toying with the idea of mounting the motor down lower - even with the top of the main wing. That will reduce the need for so much UP thrust in the motor mount and might look better.

Larry


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Old 11-09-2007, 03:15 AM   #32
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More notes on servos - I dont wrap mine with tape. I just hot glue them down and Ive gotten away with that many times. The tape is a good idea tho.

Jed has started doing something interesting. Its more trouble but looks a lot better.

He cuts a hole in the deck and mounts his servos so they stand up-right. The wires then run UNDER the deck and into the hole/space between the deck and the under brace where he puts his RX and esc. Its a lot neater that way with no wires showing on the tp of the model.

I dont have any pics of his setup tho.

More shots of how I do the servo linkages and horns.

Larry


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Old 11-09-2007, 03:32 AM   #33
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More shots of the horns.

This is very easy to do and Im doing it on almost all my foamies now.

I use a carbon rod of what ever size seems strong enough. These are around 1.5mm I think.

Cut a triangle of Depron that is 3/4 of the width of your controll surface. Make sure the short leg is a bit shorter than the controll arm length you're using on your servo.

Cut one short piece of the carbon rod so its about 1/2" longer than the top edge of the Depron triangle. That will put the pivot point out over the hinge line once its glued on.

Cut the other piece of carbon rod long enough to almost reach your servo.

Heat shrink the 2 pieces of carbon rod together (I put a drop of thin CA under the heat shrink on each piece) and bend the joint at a 90 degree angle before it cools all the way. Voilla! You have a bendable linkage joint.

On the other end I take a short piece of threaded metal rod and attrack it to the carbon rod so I can use my servo linkage of choice - Z bend, clevis or Dubro quick conector.

Glue the short length of carbon rod to the top of your triangle piece using foam safe CA. Leave the pivot/bend joint sticking out about 1/2" beyond the end of the triangle. Glue the triangle and rod to your controll surface so the pivot point is over the hinge line.

I like 3D throws so I want the point where the controll rod bends inside the heat shrink to be about the same height up off the controll surface as the length of my servo arm. That pivot point should also end up directly over the hinge line.

I glue the two triangles on to the controll surfaces first, then conect up the rod to the servo. Next I brace the controll surface so they are in line/flat to the main wing. That tells me where the servo has to go and I hot glue it down.

Notice that I am using a split push rod. You could easily use two seperate rods. Attach the one running to the outer surface to the top servo hole. Attach the one running to the inner surface to the next hole down and it will work fine.

You can also use triangles made of thin ply but you will need to water proof them. Stiff plastic works too.

Jed gets away with using normal controll horns on the surfaces but I like my way better

Larry
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Old 11-09-2007, 03:33 AM   #34
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forgot the pics!


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Old 11-09-2007, 03:39 AM   #35
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On those heat shrink bends - they hold up very well. Many of the ones on this plane are actually from some of my earlier versions.

I just break off the Depron triangle and move the entire assembly to the new plane.

Thats why some of them are different colors and look messed up - they have been re-done several times

Its a good idea to sand the ends of the carbon rods so they have no sharp points where they join inside the heat shrink. They can tear the heat shrink if you dont.

Other than that they hold up very very well over time.

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Old 11-09-2007, 07:24 AM   #36
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Ive decided to try building one from 3mm Depron for indoor flying only. The goal is to make it super light.

Im going to use a CustomcdRom hot wind single motor with 2S 1320 pack and probably a 9x5 prop depending on how it flys.

I'd love to get the wing loading down to 1 oz/foot but I still doubt thats possible with the gear I have... we will see

I'll post build pics as I go along as many of the details will be the same or similar to the 6mm version.

Larry
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Old 11-09-2007, 08:20 AM   #37
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I got the main panels cut out and beveled and the two outer joints are glued and are drying now.

You'll notice the shape is different. Jed will recognize it

Hopefully this one will look a little sleeker and streamlined.

Since this is going to be mainly for indoor flying Im not going to make the floats as "floaty" as I would for water take offs. Im going to save weight there too.

More tomorrow.

Larry


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Old 11-09-2007, 02:29 PM   #38
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Hi Larry, thanks for all the pictures and the additional information! I really like your approach for making control rods and I will definitely try that.

One thing I notice in your latest pictures that isn't in your earlier ones is you have a double thickness of foam in the front now. Did you find this necessary because of the way that the motor is mounted? Did you leave the front square like it is or round it off somehow?

Cheers,

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Old 11-09-2007, 06:10 PM   #39
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Good grief! You're right, I forgot to mention that double up layer in the front!

That is a critical thing you need to do for strength. It also seems to make the plane stiffer so it rolls better. The main reason tho is to help keep the main wing from breaking at the join line where the under brace glues to the wing deck.

On hard landings the sponsons tend to spread outward. Tha puts a bending moment on the center wing panels and it tends to break along the lione where the brace is glued on.

We have tried a number of soultions.

1) carbon fiber rod along the leading edge from motor mount out to the sponson.
2) carbon or wood dowel running between the two sponsons to keep them from spreading at all
3)doubling up the front top section of the center wing panels.

I like #3 best.

The carbon rods along the leading edge would work I think, but this thing has no other carbon in it and I just like the idea of a bird this big with no carbon. No good reason not to do it tho.

The dowel running between the sponsons works well. Thats how Jed does his in the Flying W video and in his ARF he is making. I dont like the way it looks and it can get caught on tall weeds if your out in the rough stuff. It is a lot stronger tho.

Mine with the doubled up section holds up fairly well but it still can break along that joint if your haveing rough landings. last time I broke it I glassed the joints about 4" back with .5 oz glass and water based varathane.

Keep in mind I tend to be rough on mine. I like to fly close to the ground/water and many of my low loops tend to bottom out an inch or so below ground level. The "spring action" of this design allows it to flex and come back - but only so far

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Old 11-09-2007, 06:13 PM   #40
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Sorry, it looks like I forgot to up-load some of the pics earlier!

These pics show where the break tends to happen and what it looks like on an earlier version.

Larry


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Old 11-09-2007, 07:22 PM   #41
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That all makes sense about the reinforcements. I don't like the idea of the carbon rods or wooden dowel as I want to keep it clean underneath. How about just glassing the leading edge and back a few inches and some of the hinge lines? Then I could paint those areas which would maybe look a little cleaner.

In your last picture I see there is a cowl/fuselage that I didn't notice before (but do see on the videos when I look at them again). Is that made out of foam too?

If you don't mind dragging out the camera again it would be great to have some pictures of the Cap ready to fly because the videos have too much action!

I have been thinking about the way that you make your 'conbtrol horns' and I think it is a really excellent technique. Thank you for sharing!

It looks like my depron isn't going to arrive before the weekend unfortunately. Oh well, with all this preparation I am going to be able to build this thing in my sleep by the time I have the materials :-)

I should have mentioned at the beginning of this thread that if I am able to build and fly the Capricorn then anyone can!

RM
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Old 11-09-2007, 07:39 PM   #42
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I wont have time to do any new pics till Saturday some time - maybe.

I'll look thru my files and see if I have any of the completed bird. I know I have some of older versions, so I'll post them in the mean time.

I think I said before that Im on number 5 or 6 now Im pretty hard on them - especially when Im showing off

I dont see why the glass idea would not work for the front edge reinforcement. That should keep that joint from splitting and still allow it toflex.

However, it might not give the extra stifining that helps the roll rate. This thing is pretty long and flexible as far as twisting. When you give it a roll comand the fuse has a tendancy to twist in the opposit direction which tends to counter act your roll command. The bottom brace was originally added to fight that, then made larger.

When I added the top front layers that really helped a lot. I suspect a wider bottom brace would have the same effect.

I may try your idea of glassing the leading edge on the UL version Im doing now!

Im not sure what you mean about glassing on the hinge line? Were you going to use the glass as a hinge?


That cowl/fuse assembly you see was on my second or 3rd one. Its all Depron and a canopy from a spray bottle It looked cool but was a lot of extra work, so I havent done any more since then.

Be carefull with paint. if you paint the entire thing it adds a LOT of weight. Thats a lot of area and it adds up. It also tends to make the model more tial heavy so keep that in mind too as most of the paint added will be behind the CG.

Thats another point to mention. When your flying off water and the model gets wet, the CG moves back a good bit. Again because most of the surface area is behind the CG anyything added to the entire surface moves the CG rearward.

Its more noticable the further back your CG us to start with. If you have ytour cg around 7" back it wont be a problem, but be prepared for a more sensitive elevator responce.

On my current one, with the CG at 10", it has a dramatic change in pitch sensitivity when its wet.

Larry

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Old 11-09-2007, 07:52 PM   #43
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pics of various versions


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Old 11-09-2007, 08:03 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Larry3215 View Post
pics of various versions
Great looking Hydros Larry, Its neet what someone can do with a little Imagination, Take care, Chellie
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Old 11-09-2007, 08:10 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Larry3215 View Post
More notes on servos - I dont wrap mine with tape. I just hot glue them down and Ive gotten away with that many times. The tape is a good idea tho.

Jed has started doing something interesting. Its more trouble but looks a lot better.

He cuts a hole in the deck and mounts his servos so they stand up-right. The wires then run UNDER the deck and into the hole/space between the deck and the under brace where he puts his RX and esc. Its a lot neater that way with no wires showing on the tp of the model.

I dont have any pics of his setup tho.

More shots of how I do the servo linkages and horns.

Larry
Hi Larry thats a interesting control rod, horn set up you have, I was wondering if the heat shrink tubing would break over time, if thats all thats being used for the flexing, Very creative, and you dont have to buy any more control horns Take care, Chellie
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Old 11-09-2007, 09:12 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Larry3215 View Post
Im not sure what you mean about glassing on the hinge line? Were you going to use the glass as a hinge?
Sorry I meant to say along the glued seam where you show the cracking. I had hinges on the brain I guess.

The pictures you posted of the finished Cap are great so no big hurry to have more from a build point of view. But I expect that at least Chellie would like to see more :-)

RM
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Old 11-10-2007, 08:38 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
Hi Larry thats a interesting control rod, horn set up you have, I was wondering if the heat shrink tubing would break over time, if thats all thats being used for the flexing, Very creative, and you dont have to buy any more control horns Take care, Chellie
I havent had any fail in flight, but I have had a couple tear after hard crashes that also stripped out the servo gears.

Some heat shrink seems to be better than others tho. I had some that was kind of stiff before shrinking. Felt more like drinking straw plastic rather than the usual rubbery stretchy kind. That stuff didnt work at all. It tended to break after just a couple of bends once it cooled.

Just remember to sand the ends of the carbon rods smooth so they are not sharp and have no rough edges. Also bend the joint 90 degrees as you shrink it - in the direction its going to be working once its installed - and let it cool in that position.

Larry
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Old 11-10-2007, 08:47 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Larry3215 View Post
I havent had any fail in flight, but I have had a couple tear after hard crashes that also stripped out the servo gears.

Some heat shrink seems to be better than others tho. I had some that was kind of stiff before shrinking. Felt more like drinking straw plastic rather than the usual rubbery stretchy kind. That stuff didnt work at all. It tended to break after just a couple of bends once it cooled.

Just remember to sand the ends of the carbon rods smooth so they are not sharp and have no rough edges. Also bend the joint 90 degrees as you shrink it - in the direction its going to be working once its installed - and let it cool in that position.

Larry
Thank you for the information I will have to give that a try, Take care and have a great weekend, Chellie
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Old 11-10-2007, 09:15 AM   #49
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More progress on the UL version.

I made the center brace 4" wide which helped the twisting a lot.

The center wing sections were reduced to about 7.5" span down from 9" but I think it may end up being a bit too springy.

Im adding a wider doubled up section in front. Hopefully it will be strong enough.

Larry


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Old 11-10-2007, 07:30 PM   #50
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Larry, in this photo that one looks to me much larger than the other two. What is the size of it?
Thanks
Steve
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