How do I know if I'm ready for ailerons?

[NickMcEnjoy]

My first trainer was a Hobbico Select, four channels, gas. Some more gas planes later during last ten years. Recently I found electric planes are a lot more practical in many ways. I can even fly the Night Vapor in a parking lot and the mCX2 in my bedroom! I am not very quick, so I like to fly slooooooooooooow

Happy flying!

[PlaneCraz3d]

Hello everyone, first post! My first plane was also a Nexstar Select nitro plane. I still consider it to be my first plane as I have not solo'ed it yet. I have flown in about 4 times on a buddy box but did not feel ready to try a full solo yet. I have now stored that plane for a while and have been flying the sport trainer foamie (built several actually) from mikeysrc. It is a 3 channel Aileron, elevator, throttle plane. Scratch building has been a whole 'nother thing to learn but it ahs been fun and I have learned alot about flight characteristics and plane setup during the experience. I have not flown anything without ailerons so I can't say if I would be any better without them.

[AEAJR]

The question posed by this thread only applies to pilots who are trying to learn on their own. If you have an instructor, and will be flying on a buddy box, it doesn't matter if you start with ailerons or not.

You are ready for ailerons, as a self trainer, when you can fly your current R/E plane reliably, where crashing is a rare event, and you can easily handle flying toward yourself.

The following may help people understand this whole aileron vs. rudder thing. As it is not really about ailerons, but about the design of the aircraft.

Ailerons vs. Rudder Designs
Which is better for new pilots?
by Ed Anderson
aeajr on the forums

The question of ailerons vs. rudder only models, as a preferred design for
new pilots, comes up all the time. People mistakenly focus on the control
surfaces, but the real question or issue is the dihedral of the wing and the
wing's placement relative to the fuselage. Let's discuss this and try to
help clear up the question.

First, let me say that if you are working with an instructor, it makes no
difference whether your plane has ailerons or not. Your instructor will
help you learn the function of the surfaces and how to manage the plane in
the air. This is especially true if you will be training on a buddy box.
So, follow your instructor's advice as to what plane or what kind of plane
to get. As long as you are only going to fly under the supervision of an
instructor, it makes no difference. Follow their lead.

But what if you plan to try to learn to fly by yourself? Or maybe you will
have a little help from a friend but will be doing most of your learning on
your own. NOW it makes a difference.

There is no law of nature that says you can't learn to fly on a plane with
ailerons. Lots of people do it. But the R/E only planes seem to provide an
easier starter set-up for new self-trainers. Let's see why this is true.


Elements of a good first plane for a self training pilot.


High Wing. - Having the wing located on top of the fuselage places the
weight of the fuselage below the lifting surface. The plane will tend to
want to fly with that weight below the lifting wing, so the plane will want
to remain stable and have less tendency to roll on its own. So high wing is
best for new pilots. Low wing designs tend to roll very easily so they are
much less self leveling. They are very happy to go inverted, bad for a self trainer.

High Dihedral - The angle of the wing as it extends away from the fuselage
is called the dihedral angle. In some planes the wing may have several
angles. These are called polyhedral wings. In some planes the wing will
come out flat from the fuselage having little or no dihedral angle. The
more dihedral angle in the wing, the more stable the plane will be as the
wing will want to level itself naturally. The flatter the wing, the less
stable the plane will be and the less self leveling.

Because a flat wing is much less stable it is the preferred design for
aerobatic planes. And since a flat wing plane will not tend to self level,
the pilot has to do it or the plane will likely fall out of the sky. A flat
wing plane requires the pilot to be much more skilled and attentive.

So a good self trainer, both in models and full scale planes, will have a
high wing with a lot of dihedral. In many cases, if you let go of the
sticks, this design will right itself and return to level flight if it has
enough time and altitude. Again a good design for new pilots who are trying
to learn to fly on their own.


Rolling the plane - direct vs. indirect

In order to turn an airplane we roll the wings so that we redirect the lift
into the direction of the turn. If we did not roll the plane it would tend
to skid sideways.

Ailerons - Ailerons roll the wings directly by changing the shape of the
wing which modifies its lift characteristics. We tend to put the ailerons
on the outer section of the wing so we get the most effect from the
smallest deflection which reduces drag. The outside aileron goes down,
generating more lift. The inside goes up generating less lift, and the wing
rotates.

But if you put ailerons on a high dihedral wing, the aileron is no longer
flat out from the fuselage, it is at more of an angle. The higher the angle
the more the aileron starts to look like a rudder. So ailerons on the outer
apsect of a high dihedral wing will generate more and more of what is
called, " adverse yaw" which means that they will try to pull the plane away
from the turn.

Rudder - If you apply rudder to a high dihedral wing plane, the rudder will
swing the tail around. This presents the bottom of the leading wing and the
top of the trailing wing to the oncoming air. This causes the wing to roll
and allows you to turn the plane. It is this coupling of yaw and dihedral
that allows a rudder only plane to turn. Once you realize this you see that
you can not efficiently turn a flat wing airplane with rudder only, you need
ailerons. But if you have high dihedral wings, you can do it with rudder
alone.


Putting it all together

So, if you are a new pilot who will be training on your own, you would
likely want a plane that is designed to be very stable and very self
leveling in order to have the plane help you get out of trouble. A high
wing, high dihedral wing design will do this best. This is the design of
most rudder only or rudder/elevator airplanes. That is why many people will
recommend these planes as the preferred design for new self training pilots.
This is also why taking a plane designed for ailerons and disabling the
ailerons is not the same as having a plane designed for rudder alone.


Compromise designs

Now, some planes have a compromise design. Planes like the GWS e-starter
are high wing high dihedral designs. They also have ailerons. GWS has
created a compromise wing that is not really the best at rudder only or the
best at ailerons, but is OK with either use.

The Multiplex Easy Glider is another example. There is enough dihedral in
the wing that you can turn it with the rudder, but response will be
sluggish. The plane has aileorns, but in order to minimize the adverse yaw
effect they are placed in the center of the wing. This makes them less
effective than ailerons on the outer part of the wing, but since this is a
glider, not an aerobat, this compromise works pretty well.

There are other planes that make a similar design compromise. However
remember that disabling the ailerons does not make the plane more stable or
more self leveling. It just means you have one less control surface to
worry about. Disabling the ailerons on a plane that is designed to fly with
ailerons will likley result in a plane that flies poorly and that is never our goal.

[PlaneCraz3d]

Thank you AEAJR for that information it was very helpful. I guess I was a bit brief in that last post. I started with an instructor but due to work restrictions and a long drive to the field I have been trying to teach myself with electric foamies. The learning curve has been slow but I feel gratified with what I have learned so far, having learned it for myself. Much of it was learned right here in this forum. I have been thinking about getting a 3 channel plane without ailerons like the multiplex easystar to see if I do any better with it.

[NickMcEnjoy]

I wished I had foamies back then. They are indestructible so it does not matter how many channels the plane has. You fly more you learn fast.
I crashed at least three "balsa" trainers, one (red) "Stik", one Pete n' Poke... I learned very slowly because I was too afraid of crashing. Preparing a gas flight was a pain too. Well some people like to do the "pre-flight" stuff, but other people just like to fly, like me.

[AEAJR]

Originally Posted by NickMcEnjoy

I wished I had foamies back then. They are indestructible so it does not matter how many channels the plane has. You fly more you learn fast.
I crashed at least three "balsa" trainers, one (red) "Stik", one Pete n' Poke... I learned very slowly because I was too afraid of crashing. Preparing a gas flight was a pain too. Well some people like to do the "pre-flight" stuff, but other people just like to fly, like me.

Did you crash these planes while using a buddy box with an instructor? The buddy box is the appropriate way to learn to fly a glow plane as they tend to be larger, faster and heavier than the typical small electric used for self training. You may not have known that at the time.


Preflight stuff is required for all pilots flying any kind of aircraft, fuel or electric. Preflights for electrics may be different and perhaps simpler, but they still have to be done. If you don't want to do proper preflights then you should not be flying as you represent a danger to yourself and those around you.

[NickMcEnjoy]

Hello!

Originally Posted by AEAJR

Did you crash these planes while using a buddy box with an instructor?

No. I crashed them after several solos. I already "graduated" and my mentor let me solo. First time when I flew with my mentor, he asked whether I already flew before because my maneuvers were good. I crashed them because I was so scared of losing. That led to mistakes.
Btw, I have never seen anyone crashed anything while using a buddy box with an instructor.

Originally Posted by AEAJR

The buddy box is the appropriate way to learn to fly a glow plane as they tend to be larger, faster and heavier than the typical small electric used for self training. You may not have known that at the time.

Yeah I knew that

Originally Posted by AEAJR

Preflight stuff is required for all pilots flying any kind of aircraft, fuel or electric. Preflights for electrics may be different and perhaps simpler, but they still have to be done. If you don't want to do proper preflights then you should not be flying as you represent a danger to yourself and those around you.

I did not say that I don't want to do proper preflights. I always do preflight checks and I believe I did them properly. I just don't like them. I also don't like to go to school. School sucks. But I must go to school because it helps my bottom line I have done quite well in school, although I always hate it

[Flywhat2]

Re; "flat wing" difficulties. Do you know the Lazy Bee and now Stevens Aero "Sky Buggy"? The Sky Buggy has R/E only. I am NOT an experienced pilot, (I have'nt completed build yet), but will this plane give me fits? and what should I watch out for ?

[stevecooper]

Originally Posted by Flywhat2

Re; "flat wing" difficulties. Do you know the Lazy Bee and now Stevens Aero "Sky Buggy"? The Sky Buggy has R/E only. I am NOT an experienced pilot, (I have'nt completed build yet), but will this plane give me fits? and what should I watch out for ?

Keep it light as you can, she's got a fat wing chord (lots of lift), and she's a easy plane to fly from what i've read check'in around for this post,, and look's to be a good trainer as long as you don't try her in any wind,,(that'll come later), what are you going to fly her on?? motor, esc, batt, Etc, bubsteve
PS keep the control surface throws LOW as she's got a short Fuse!!bubsteve

[Flywhat2]

Steve, Thanks for tips. I am going to (try) to fly on:

BL 2208-14 outrunner (1450kv,130 W, 16 amps max),
9x4.7 Slo-fly prop,
T'bird 18 amp ESC by Castle,
AR 6110 Rcvr
E-flite 800 mah 2s LiPo,
HS55 servos.

Think that'll do it? I will set control surf throws at min on control horns and rate at low on DX5e radio. Is that too conservative?
Thanks much,Fly

[Electrolight]

ailerons aree neat

[Toons1978]

Glad to see this board has so many helpful and knowledgeable members willing to explain things in detail.

[Rockin Robbins]

You are ready for ailerons if you fly a plane with ailerons and succeed!


As a practical matter if you have an instructor and a buddy box or an instructor that has a method of easily assuming control of the plane you can confidently start out with ailerons from the beginning.

If you're on your own, you need to feel absolutely comfortable flying your three channel plane. You know when your predominate feeling goes from "don't crash, don't crash" to "wow, this is fun, wow, this is fun." When you've turned that corner and crash rarely and know exactly what you did wrong if you do crash, you're ready for the next step: ailerons.

But you REALLY only know if you're ready if you try it and succeed!

[azwarbird]

Originally Posted by Balil

tfifia, tell ya something from experience, i learned to fly on a .46 p-51 mustang. it was an extremely fast model and WAY beyond what i needed to start on, but i wanted to fly, after spending MONTHS on a sim i finally got up the nerve to go to the field and gas er up, guess what, SHE FLEW! a few clicks of alerion trim and this thing was flying as straight as an arrow and fairly fast 45-50 mph, ended up having to land dead stick because i was having so much fun flying this thing that i wasnt paying attention to my stop watch, which is a good idea to have when flying nitro, landed the bird, recharged the flight pack, gased her back up and i was in the air, at the field by myself, flying a real model for the first time, looking back on what i did, i do not recommend it but sometimes things of the sort just happen... if you REALLY wanna learn to fly, you'll fly...

That's pretty much what I did. I just wanted to fly. I bought a HZ Super cub to get my feet wet, next day I picked up a hf p51 and a PZ f4u Corsair. I taught myself the do's and don'ts of a full control plane with the p51. I put the f4u together and haven't looked back. That was 6 days ago today. No simulator and no formal training, just the desire to fly. The p51 is petty beat up though but for 80 bucks I don't feel bad .

[speeddaddy]

Hi everyone, just trying to get my 2 posts

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by speeddaddy

Hi everyone, just trying to get my 2 posts

Looks like you've got it speeddaddy. Welcome to Wattflyer!

[matiac]

I have to agree with what was said earlier about those P47s. Not accounting for the nearly non-existant weight, the little 400mm one I have is a BEAR to fly. Would most likely fly a lot better in the calm, but days like that here are few and far between. However, with that said, I have flown the micro several times in the wind with positive results, so I'm thinking the much larger version I've got (Airfield/FMS pictured at left) should be a lot more forgiving, AND it's got flaps (6 CH.) to slow it down for landings. I can't imagine flying a plane without ailerons...