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Old 12-18-2008, 08:11 PM   #1
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Default XXL Polaris scratch build

I am either crazy, senile or I have a "serious condition" of some sort. Thats what my wife says anyway

Im part way thru the build on a Phase3 F16, Im part way thru a build of a new giant scale foamie Yak (for the contest), Im part way thru the build on a giant scale foamie Extra/Edge thing, I havent finished repairing the nose gear on my FlyFly F86 and my Mega Capricorn still needs a paint job.

You would think I had more than enough RC related projects to keep me busy over the winter!

Here is the problem. I saw a new F-16 by RC Lander that really caught my eye. Then I saw they had an F9F that was pretty cool too. Then I saw they had a Rafale twin EDF! I wanted ALL of them but cant really afford any of them at the moment. While I was reading up on them, all trying to decide on which one to get (Come on honey, its a really cool airplane and they all have retracts! We dont realy NEED that new carpet just yet do we?).

Then when I had it almost figured out, (the F16 is winning by a hair) I saw a post by TheDon about a twin SR-71 - with retracts!!!! And its cheep!!! (hear that honey?)

While I was going nuts over all those choices - and realizing I couldnt really afford to do any of them at the moment I ran across a thread started by Jetset44 (Steve Schumate of Park Jets fame) about a new sea plane of his called the Polaris.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...=922465&pp=100

The Polaris based on the old Laddie Mikulasco (sp?) North Star which I built waaaaaaaay back in the old days. Great model!

I also built a much smaller version a year or 2 ago I called the Sparkle.

Recently Ive been into much larger giant scale foamies and it occured to me that this plan form would lend itself well to a giant scale version.

On top of that, I have most everything Id need to get it in the air just laying around ready to go.

So... thats what Im going to do next. I'll wait to save up some more $$ and see more flight reviews of those jets down the road. All the other stuff is going back in the boxes and up in the rafters and Im cleaning off my bench! Well... Im going to clean off a few things anyway

We are snowed in at the moment so I'll start cutting foam as soon as I scale off some rough sketches.

It will end up aprox 80" long with about a 60" span with removable wings. Power will be 6S A123 pack driving a Mega 22/30/3 direct drive into a 12" prop. Should be in the 900-1000 watt range and pretty fast top speed. All up weight should end up in the 5 to 7 pound range but I almost always come in heavier than my predictions

One other plus point on this one is it will be able to fly off snow along with my Capricorns and none of the jets will do that!

For those who cant wait - here is a video of its second flight!

YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Here is the first serious water flight of the big Polaris.

YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


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Old 12-19-2008, 12:59 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Larry3215 View Post
I am either crazy, senile or I have a "serious condition" of some sort. That's what my wife says anyway
My wife used to say RC is cheaper than therapy but I think she is reconsidering.

I have been following the Polaris thread too and I also owned a Northstar and several variations. I like your idea of another "Larry Style variation".

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Old 12-19-2008, 10:53 PM   #3
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Thanks Lee My wife is starting to get wise to this too. I had a lipo fire in my shop a couple of years ago and the insurance check for the "hobby items" was, unfortunately, made out to both of us. She had a bit of a fit when she saw how much the check was for! I dont think she believes me any more when I say "But honey, its just few rechargeable batteries!"

This should be a fairly easy build. The only area Im concerned with is the vertical tail section. That will take some extra reinforcement and thought to be sure the motor is getting enough support. The 1/2" Blue foam Im going to use doesnt do well with concentrated loads like motor mounts and landing gear supports. Im sure I'll be using some extra ply, carbon tubes and fiberglass in that area.

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Old 12-23-2008, 01:38 AM   #4
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I've made some progress. I have the main wing cut out and one of the two main spars installed.

I'll leave ther wing all one piece untill the spars are all set and the glue is dry. Then I'll cut off the outer removable sections. That way Im sure things will line up properly when its time to put them back on

I used a trick Lee showed off in his SnowBall build thread to cut the grooves in the 1/2" foam where the aluminum tube sections of the spars to get glued in. I used a wheel collar on the end of my soldering iron to set the depth then ran the iron down the side of a long straight edge to cut the groves. Works great! Thanks Lee!

The aluminum arrow shafts get glued into the foam wing and the carbon tubes are a snug fir inside of them. The carbon tubes are removed when the wing is taken apart. Its the same system Ive been using on my other giant scale 1/2" blue foam Yak - BUFY. Its held up really well and is easy to do if you want removable wings - an important feature of any large bird unless you have a big enough trailer for hauling them around in one piece - which I dont!

Im also going to add carbon tubes along the leading edge and some small locator pins at the front edge of the wing.


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Old 12-23-2008, 01:46 AM   #5
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By the way - I get the aluminum and carbon shafts at my local sporting good store. If you look around a bit you will find some carbon shafts that are a snug fit inside the larger aluminum shafts. I got lucky and found some cheep carbon arrow shafts - $0.99 each. The only aluminum shafts I could find to fit were more expensive - Easton Black Stalkers 2216 - $33.00 for a box of 12ea. If you look online you can get the Eastons cheeper.

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Old 12-29-2008, 05:50 AM   #6
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The removable wings are done other than cutting out and hinging the ailerons and Ive started on the fuse. I have all the main parts cut out and the bottom glued on the fuse and a layer of glass applied to the bottom.

I am actually using 2 layers of .75 oz cloth on the bottom only and applying it with Johnsons Pledge floor polish.

I have been using it for a while now and I like it better than WBPU for the most part. It drys faster, smells a LOT better and seems lighter as well. So far I dont see any down side at all.

This application will be a true test of its water resistance though. Ive used it on other planes that have been in the rain for short times but never where it would sit in the water for extended periods. I should probably have done a test piece first....


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Old 12-30-2008, 02:10 AM   #7
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Grrrrrrrr! I should have done the water test before I put the stuff on!

I made up a sample piece late last night and stuck it in some water a while ago.

After about 2 hours in warm water the finish was very soft.

The question is what to do now???

I think I'll do another test and wait longer for the finish to dry. It might need a couple of days to set up all the way. Its been cold here lately so I can hope! If that doesnt work I will have to either take it all off or try coating it with finishing resin

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Old 12-30-2008, 06:02 AM   #8
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I changed my mind. I peeled off the glass, sanded it down and redid it with epoxy finishing resin. Im going to be running this thing mostly off a paved runway but it will spend a lot of time in the water too (I hope) so it needed to be done right.

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Old 12-30-2008, 02:34 PM   #9
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Wow Larry, 60" WS & 80" length Very cool! I like BIG foamy jets & I've been wanting to build a floaty for some time now. I saw the Shumate post you referred to but it didn't click at the time to scale it up. Just what I need. Something else to build I thing I'd go for a size in the 42" WS X 56" length (using your ratio) & make the wing fixed. Hmmmmmm Good luck with your build. I'll be watching. Blue skies!
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Old 12-31-2008, 06:47 AM   #10
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Thanks Rick

Once you get bitten by the 'BIG" bug you cant give it up The little planes still have a place in my hanger and they are fun to fly - sometimes - BUT my real joy these days is flying the big ones and especially the big foamies.

The size you are thinking would be a nice size too. Big enough to be fun but a lot easier to transport and faster to build and you can use a much smaller power system.

The removable wings are kind of a pain to do. Not really difficult but they take extra time and you need to keep things lined up fairly well or they are difficult to get on/off with this multi-spar tube system Im using. Still, its worth it.

There is nothing gets attention at the field like showing up with a foamy thats bigger than any other plane at the field

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Old 01-01-2009, 07:41 PM   #11
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Hi Larry
I'm Larry too and you are not wrong about the "BIG" bug... I've been bitten and have several BIG builds going right now one of which is a 2X Polaris (I have pics posted on Steve's Polaris build thread on RCGoups). I will be watching this build as I was wondering how I was going to haul it to the field. I couldn't figure how to make the wing removable so I will be very interested seeing how you accomplish it. I too am using 1/2" foam for the main wing and some of the tail assembly, but I am using 1/4" Protection Board lll for as much as I can. I didn't want it to gain weight exponentially. My 8 foot wing 4 engine Puddle Monster (3x Puddle Twin) is what I am working on at the present time. I see we have some things on common including our name. I am glad I found you.

Regards Larry

Originally Posted by Larry3215 View Post
Thanks Rick

Once you get bitten by the 'BIG" bug you cant give it up The little planes still have a place in my hanger and they are fun to fly - sometimes - BUT my real joy these days is flying the big ones and especially the big foamies.

The size you are thinking would be a nice size too. Big enough to be fun but a lot easier to transport and faster to build and you can use a much smaller power system.

The removable wings are kind of a pain to do. Not really difficult but they take extra time and you need to keep things lined up fairly well or they are difficult to get on/off with this multi-spar tube system Im using. Still, its worth it.

There is nothing gets attention at the field like showing up with a foamy thats bigger than any other plane at the field
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Old 01-01-2009, 09:49 PM   #12
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Hi Larry,

I am glad to meet another big bird junkie!

I'll post some more details on the removable wing system Im using a little later. In the mean time here is a link to my BUFY build where I used the same system. I also used the same hinging set up on BUFY.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29624

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Old 01-01-2009, 11:39 PM   #13
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Larry
Have you tried using Tite Bond ll or lll thinned 70 30 with water instead of WBPU? Makes a very tough skin and you can use brown paper or news paper instead of fiberglass. I sometimes use nylon (the non-stretchy kind) along with the Tite Bond makes a very strong skin for giant planes and the Dow blue isn't fragile any more.


Originally Posted by Larry3215 View Post
Grrrrrrrr! I should have done the water test before I put the stuff on!

I made up a sample piece late last night and stuck it in some water a while ago.

After about 2 hours in warm water the finish was very soft.

The question is what to do now???

I think I'll do another test and wait longer for the finish to dry. It might need a couple of days to set up all the way. Its been cold here lately so I can hope! If that doesnt work I will have to either take it all off or try coating it with finishing resin


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Old 01-02-2009, 01:50 AM   #14
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Wow! Those are some nice monsters you've got there Larry! Very nice workmanship!

Here is a quick sketch of where Im doing the cuts on the removable wing. The red lines show the cuts, the green are the removable wing tubes and the front two guide pins and the blue are just carbon tubes along the leading edge.

Note that the rear portion of the cut is also the inner line for the ailerons. That drawing isnt to scale but it gives the idea. With the wings removed the elevator is the widest point on the plane at about 26-27".

I havent tried the tight bond yet. I wonder how well it would hold up under water though. I wanted to play it safe on this one. Its going to get some abuse running off a hard runway most of the time and there is always the chance of getting stuck way out in the lake for extended periods so the water resistance needs to be very hi and the strength needs to be there as well.

I do have some rip-stop nylon Ive been meaning to try out. That sounds like a good idea to me!


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Old 01-02-2009, 04:04 AM   #15
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I used the Tite Bond on the horizontal stabe of the 120% Polaris I am building. I first used Elmer's carpenters glue and glued news paper on both surfaces of the stabe. I let it dry for a day then applied a coat of Tite Bond ll over that. When dried the stabe made from 1/4" PBlll was as stiff as a board don't need stiffener of any kind. I soaked it in warm water and left it over night and it was just as stiff as it was when I started. Extended soaking will soften the glue though. When doing this you need to make sure there are no fibers of paper through your Tite Bond coating as the water can wick through that and reach the news paper and Elmer's underneath. I think if I would use Tite bond for all the layers that it would water proof the paper also Just an opinion not tested. The down side to this application is if you don't do both sides at the same time and allow them to dry at the same rate you will get some warping if one side dries before the other due to shrinkage.
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Old 01-02-2009, 04:34 AM   #16
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On high ware surfaces like the bottom of the fuse and wing tip floats, I use Tite Bond with Kevlar.


Originally Posted by Larry3215 View Post

I havent tried the tight bond yet. I wonder how well it would hold up under water though. I wanted to play it safe on this one. Its going to get some abuse running off a hard runway most of the time and there is always the chance of getting stuck way out in the lake for extended periods so the water resistance needs to be very hi and the strength needs to be there as well.

I do have some rip-stop nylon Ive been meaning to try out. That sounds like a good idea to me!
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Old 01-02-2009, 05:10 AM   #17
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Im not going to glass or cover the main wing. I dont think it will need it for strength with 2 spars and the leading edge carbon.

I did glass the bottom of the fuse for wear and strength and I'll do the tip float bottoms as well. Ive ordered a roll of that super slick tape to use on the bottoms as skid material. That is some very nice stuff - but pricey!

The hinge technique Im using should make the horizontal stab stiff enough all on its own so I dont think it will need any extra glassing or spars either. The Polaris stab is smaller than the one on BUFY and that one was more than strong enough to stand up to heavy 3D loads and even a few crashes with no damage.

The only other piece Im worried about is the vertical stab and motor mount. Im still working out how to do that. Its going to have a lot of stress on it with motor weight, prop torque from 1000 watts or so and gyroscopic forces on top of that. At the moment Im leaning towards a 1/4" lite ply center piece with foam outer shell for the shape then glass over that - at least the lower section down to the wing. I'll probably use Steve's technique of a ply base plate to sit it on.

I really like the look of your motor cowling! I've been trying to think of something cool looking and I may copy you do something similar

The upper vertical fin should be fine as foam only or maybe have a short carbon tube recessed into it.

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Old 01-02-2009, 05:12 AM   #18
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So the Tight bond seems to be relatively water proof once dry? Im going to have to play with that and try it out.

Is that ratio 70% glue to 30% water?

Thanks for the tips Larry!

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Old 01-02-2009, 06:41 AM   #19
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You are welcome... hope it works for you.
The reason I am doing the main wing is to experiment with using the outer coating for stiffness instead of a lot of carbon or wood spars (exoskeleton like) As stiff as it has made the other parts I have tried it on well..... maybe. Like covering a foam core with balsa. No finger prints in the foam from handeling it either. I am using a wooden LE too.
Yes the ratio is 70% glue and 30% water.
Got to hit the sack.

Later
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Old 01-02-2009, 06:51 AM   #20
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Oh... when glassing the ware areas with Kevlar, I use the glue without thinning. Seems to work as well as Kevlar and resin, but takes longer to dry and takes a couple of additional coats of glue.

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Old 01-02-2009, 06:01 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by larryross View Post
You are welcome... hope it works for you.
The reason I am doing the main wing is to experiment with using the outer coating for stiffness instead of a lot of carbon or wood spars (exoskeleton like) As stiff as it has made the other parts I have tried it on well..... maybe. Like covering a foam core with balsa. No finger prints in the foam from handeling it either. I am using a wooden LE too.
Yes the ratio is 70% glue and 30% water.
Got to hit the sack.

Later
Larry
That should work well. The stressed skin wing technique has been around for ages and works very well. The 1/2" foam is thick enough to allow a good bit of strength Id think. It has the added advantage of providing torsional stiffness as well. One thing simple spars cannot generally do.

Its probably heavier than simple spars, but your right about the finger dents and hanger rash. This 1/2" foam is fragile.

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Old 01-02-2009, 11:58 PM   #22
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From your drawing above, I think I will try it to make my Polaris transportable. What are you doing about servo placement for the ailerons? My Polaris will be tail heavy so I need to place everything I can in the nose of the plane.
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:28 AM   #23
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Yeah, if your covering the whole wing that will add more weight behind the cg than in front of it. Im not too worried about CG on mine (fingers crossed!). My packs are relatively heavy and I am leaving room up front in case I need to get them all the way into the nose.

Im going to mount one servo on each removable wing panel laying flat on the top side. That doesnt look as good but water and servos dont do well together and they would get constantly soaked under neath.

Im on a real tight budget at the moment so Im using some cheep HS475HB servos I have. They are only about 80oz torque on 6 volts but that should be enough - I hope. Im also going to program the ailerons as elevons to increase pitch authority at low speeds. Should be interesting

I'll probably do a fairing to hide the exposed servos sinse they will be full sized servos. Ive tried burying them 1/2 way into the foam in the past, but water collects in the cut out and seeps into the servo no matter what you do to keep it out. As soon as a warm servo gets dunked into cold lake water it sucks it right in.

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Old 01-04-2009, 05:21 AM   #24
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Looking good so far, Larry! I'll be eager to see how this turns out.

Steve
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:24 AM   #25
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Hi Steve,

Thanks for checking in and another thanks for a great plan - as usual!

I think this one is gonna be fun

I finally decided on how Im going to do the tail section/motor mount area. That has been a worry for me from day one.

This blue foam handles flight loads very well but it does NOT like concentrated point loads. I have the ply sub-structure all done. Im pretty sure its at least a little over kill but that's better than having the tail come off in flight

I'll build the outer shape of the vertical fin and cowling from Depron. The horizontal stab/elevator and rudder will be blue foam again.

Ive got the center fixed portion of the main wing glued in place and the tail/motor mount ply glued in place. I also did a trial fit of the wing to the fuse.

I need a bigger shop!


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