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Pusher Park Jets For all pusher jets and jet-like models.

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Old 07-23-2010, 08:36 AM   #76
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Now there's the whole point of this great hobby in a nutshell. If you don't mind me saying your concepts of building, the flying characteristics of your models and the conditions under which they are expected to perform, are worlds apart ( well half a world anyway) yet you can both appreciate the challenges and the innovations which you have made in over coming them. In my humble opinion this is the apex of the Hobby.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:10 PM   #77
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Default looks like a scratchbuild.......

Hi Bob, wrongly assumed that you had bought a kit or arf or something, but that looks like an early warbird scratchbuild. Whats it made from? How did you shape and form the surfaces? Does it fly well? Where did you get the idea from, is there a build thread for her, etc,etc,etc,... waiting for the yellow version now. Good luck with it
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Old 07-24-2010, 02:48 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by pattern14 View Post
Hi Bob, wrongly assumed that you had bought a kit or arf or something, but that looks like an early warbird scratchbuild. Whats it made from? How did you shape and form the surfaces? Does it fly well? Where did you get the idea from, is there a build thread for her, etc,etc,etc,... waiting for the yellow version now. Good luck with it
Michael, so many questions. Yes, this is a late 1930s-1940s era US Army Air Force pursuit trainer. The Canadians used it with an enclosed cockpit and called it the PT-26. Let me give you the link to the build thread: http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55743
Materials: 1/4" Dow Protection Board III blue foam (styrofoam), internal frame is Dollar Tree Foamboard (also known as foamcore). Covering is Habotai 4mm (not millimeters) silk and water based polyurethane sealer (aka Polycrylic). Dow PB III can be bent or rolled by hand without heat, although heat gun will make it faster to curve it. It flies very well. I got the idea from many other foam scratchbuilds, but the thread by Grasshopper building a Pica balsa PT-19 kit was my original inspiration. Hope this helps.

Bob

"Dum spiro spero." (While I breathe, I hope).
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Old 08-01-2010, 02:26 PM   #79
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Default maybe tomorrow......

Thanks for clearing that up Bob; hope you have great success with it. Really made an effort with the Arado the last few days, and am looking at a test flight tomorrow, all going well
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Old 08-02-2010, 11:04 AM   #80
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Default Disaster

Once again, my best laid plans...... Got her all together, batteries charged and all control surfaces checked and doubled checked. Perfect winters day, sunny, light breeze; Ideal for a maiden. Handlaunch into the breeze, instant stall, and one nacelle ripped off in a very hard thump. No problems, taped it back on, some down trim, and tried again. Same thing. Added some lead to the nose, and some more down trim. Another stall, plus a hard left veer, and a wing tip dug in.. Some more trimming, some more lead ( the COG was getting further forward than I would have imagined), stalled again, this time snapping a prop. Replace the prop, retape the right nacelle again, and a handfull of lead in the nose. Actually gained height, seemed to settle for a bit, but wanting to stall all the time. Tried turning back, but tip stalled as well, and hit the ground really hard from about 100 metres up. Fuse in 3 pieces, engined and nacelles ripped off, general carnage.. I have obviously done something wrong here, so it's back to the drawing board. Some tape and hot glue will see it fixed in about 1/2 an hour, but the post mortem will be more involved. Try again tomorrow
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Old 08-02-2010, 04:21 PM   #81
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Yikes! That is not a promising start. I hope you can diagnose this. I subscribe to the priniciple of Occam's razor: the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Unfortunately with RC, that is not always true.

"Dum spiro spero." (While I breathe, I hope).
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Old 08-04-2010, 01:54 PM   #82
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Default pig headedness

Thanks for the encouragement Bob; my perseverence in this took a slight hammering of late. Not to be daunted, I put her back together and tried again, but to little avail. She was very difficulut to control, and I ended up busting two more props, and tearing the nose off (again). Good thing it is built in the same pattern as my combat planes. More tape and hot glue............. What did Sherlock Holmes say about when you discount everything else, what you have left, no matter how improbable, is the answer? So back to basics.... lets test the airframe first. Took off the nacelles, and put my edf test unit atop the wings centre section. Had lots of practice doing this with the He 162 and Daimler Benz, so it was very straight forward. Checked everything; variable number One. Straight away it was way too nose heavy, so I removed half the lead ballast (Hmmmmm) Took two five minute flights to realise that the airframe is faultless-it glided in for a landing with no control input, very stable and graceful. Put her through her paces, loops and barrel rolls, almost specked out in the cloudy sky, and cut the power and soared for about 10 minutes in the 20 knot wind about 400 metres up. So lets test the motorsOn the bench, one was producing more thrust than the other, regardeless of identical setup and tuning. Swapped props, and there was a noticeable difference in the counter rotating method. The tractor prop had a lot more thrust than the pusher, despite both being 7x5 apc's. Maybe they are not matched after all? Checked the thrust angle on the vectored thrust unit on the edf, and there was a big difference in angles. Because the wing saddle had been altered to reduce incidence, I had changed the thust angle to compensate, but that was obviously a mistake. Looking at it now, it was obvious the more powerful motors were tending to make the plane pitch up on launch. OK. So the problem lies with the motors and their setup, not the plane itself. How unusual for a luftwaffe jet. So now I need to nut out the correct thrust angles and offset for the torque reaction. I think I will steer clear of the counter rotating props until I find out more about matching them. Lots of fun flying the Ar234 as an edf though. Will keep you posted, cheers
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Old 08-04-2010, 04:44 PM   #83
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My oh my. I like the Sherlock Holmes quote (my wife uses it a lot)- and it is the best quote on deductive reasoning I am aware of. I am glad you discovered the problem- I like your sarcastic jab about Luftwaffe jet motors! Isn't that usually the case? Thrust angles! Ugh. Too complicated.

"Dum spiro spero." (While I breathe, I hope).
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Old 08-05-2010, 10:42 AM   #84
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Default looking better and better....

Looks like the methodical approach is working. I had a gut feeling about the thrust angles, but guestimation is not always correct. Made some minor adjustments on the trims and tried again before I remount the pusher nacelles.I had one of my best high altitude flights of all time with this plane today, and am finding it a real pleasure to fly. Actually it seems to fly by itself At a very high altitude, I simply let go of the sticks, and it flew in big lazy circles in the freshening wind, almost like a bird of prey. It has great promise as a camera plane, which was my intention all along, just like the original so long ago. Having the fuse ripped into 3 pieces a couple of days ago actually turned out for the best, as I was then able to run the rear servo wires internally, and cut a removable hatch in the nose to mount the camera. You can ALWAYS get good from bad. After the nerve wracking excitement of my combat planes, this one is very soothing.. This time I will mount the outrunners externally on the rear of the nacelles, which is simply a matter of turning them around, until I get the correct thrust angles. This will make the whole adjustment process much more straight forward. In a strange twist of fate, I am considering launching the plane on the edf until I get a decent height, and then engaging the pusher motors. The early luft jets had a backup prop motor for their unreliable jets, so I am sort of imitating that in reverse. Interesting concept. Hopefully I will sort this out in the next few days, and get some more flying in.....cheers
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Old 08-05-2010, 05:38 PM   #85
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Great to hear about your "restored" Arado 234, Michael. I think it is fantastic that it glides/soars so nicely. What is the weight? Could you post the latest pictures of it? I know, too many questions! Best quote of the day: "You can ALWAYS get good from bad." How I have lived those words too. LOL.

P.S. Give my best regards to the Tasmanian Luftwaffe.

"Dum spiro spero." (While I breathe, I hope).
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Old 08-08-2010, 02:26 AM   #86
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Default Hostile recon

Time to get on with it. Strappped the video camera externally to the nose as I still have to build a proper internal bracket for it. That in itself will be an interesting project; something that swivels, and can be switched off and on while in flight. Any way, removed the ballast and added the rather heavy archaic video camera, switched it on and launched. A bit of a wobbly start, but soon up to about 300 metres, concentrating on holding her steady in a large elliptical pattern. Must be some winter thermals around, as she rose and banked with no input over the same location for three consecutive circles. There are dams and forested areas, hills and ranges all around, so I expect turbulence. Cut the power and did a final sweep to see if that made a difference to film quality. As I was coming in on the final approach, I was "jumped" by about 50 plovers, a native species that is totally psychotic around nesting time. With spring only 3 weeks away they are massing in the ploughed fields around me, as they are ground nesting birds. Fiercely territorial and suicidal around their chicks, I have seen them take on eagles, hawks and butcher birds (and win), as well as dogs, cats and tractors. My son heard at least 3 "thumps" against the plane, and I concentrated on landing it asap. Claw marks and a tear on one wing, the vectored thrust unit knocked out of alignment, and the tailplane pushed to one side.. Ihave had problems with these birds before, but my combat planes can normally outrun them. The Arado was out of power anyway, so being pounced upon on landing was a historically accurate thing to happen. BUT the video turned out o.k for a first attempt,(you can hear the bird cries towards the end) and I will attempt to remount the pusher nacelles today while I fix the bird strike damage. Having lots of fun with this one!!!!!!
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Old 08-08-2010, 07:04 PM   #87
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Bird strike! Mayday! Mayday! LOL. Plovers? Which kind? We have masked plovers at the local zoo, and they seem absolutely psychotic when you hear them scream. The local variety are much tamer and smaller, so I can't see them as culprits. Oh wait, I will Google Tasmanian wildlife. Okay, they are indeed the species- how ironic! They have nice sharp spurs on their legs as well.

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Old 09-02-2010, 10:44 AM   #88
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Default Success upon success

Finally got back to this thread again after another forced abscence ( winter, car engine repairs, shiftwork and renovations.....) managed to build two very successful trainers which I will put to good use over the school holidays in an attempt to get more people in the district flying. That is another story though. The plover situation has not improved, and every flight is chaotic on take off and landing.. BUT, the Ar 234 has finally come together as it should.. Recut the nacelle angles, and the wing saddle, as well as mounting the outrunners externally. The COG was established with the edf unit, and I added a little nose weight to keep it the same. Initially I used the tractor 7x5's and added right thrust to the port motor. First and second attempts still showed a very pronounced pull to the left, with the resulting wing tip dig and cartwheel One tough bird, I tried again with right thrust on the starboard nacelle, and she was away. A wobbly start for sure , but once she got going things really improved. Steered her around the sky for about 10 minutes playing with trims and such, and then cut the power for a very graceful landing (strafed by a dozen plovers no less). Two more thrust adjustments saw improvements in take off, which was compounded by having almost no wind I cannot fly in calm conditions to save myself, as I always fly in wind, but never the less, up she went for a very pleasing 4th time. So..... on go the counter rotating props, another change in angle, and it was a textbook hand launch. Landed and took off again, and the counter rotating props appear to have made the world of difference. All the torque reaction vanished, and she handled superbly around the blue spring sky. The motors must be very efficient, as the 2 3s2200mah lipo's gave me about 25 minutes flying time, a record for me. A clean airframe and light wing loading obviously helped. This plane actually outflies it predecessor, itself no slouch. It's also quieter, more nimble and no hint of a tip stall. A pretty rough start means it is like a patchwork quilt right now, but I'll deal with the cosmetics later. Next week I'll post some photo's and hopefully my first video on the new computor. After an enormous amout of work, the AR 234 finally came together, and I look forward to many hours of flight time with this one,....... cheers
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Old 09-04-2010, 11:45 PM   #89
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Hey, hey! Good job- keep your eyes peeled for those mad plovers. LOL. You are right, they have the most piercing psychotic scream I have yet heard. I am amazed you can do so well with a twin engine bird, as planes have enough "character" on ONE engine. Two must really bring out the quirks in your model; of course counter rotating motors always help stability in even a small way. Looking forward to pictures now.

"Dum spiro spero." (While I breathe, I hope).
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Old 09-05-2010, 12:51 PM   #90
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Default work in progress

Thanks for your support Bob: most people have lost interest in this drawn saga; nor do I blame them I actually got shot down again this afternoon- two plovers jumped me again about 2 metres up on a final approach, with the resulting spin into the mud two minor cracks in the nose and a tailplane knocked out of alignment again. Not to worry, the weather report predicts calm weather for a couple of days, so i can make a few mods and see how she flies. Bomb releases, camera mounts, landing skids, paint schemes........., this one is a long way from finished. Photo's will come........ cheers
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Old 09-11-2010, 12:32 PM   #91
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Please keep up the good work Michael. I for one really enjoy reading about your cutting edge gale force wind designs but this bird combat style of flying is really new.
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Old 09-11-2010, 12:55 PM   #92
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Default Running repairs

Glad someone appreciates those dismal wind tales Barry The damage to the Arado was worse than thought. It has had lots of hard knocks in it's initial set up, and I discovered rips and tears everywhere. The EPP that I used for this particular plane was a combination of two different grades, and a lot softer than my usual stock. Still miles ahead of elapor and "Z" foam though. So I have stripped it right back to bare foam, and covered it entirely with Bi-directional tape, and then coloured tape over that. The painting was awful anyway, and the expensive vinyl paint just flaked off like the cheap aerosol stuff. This will be an ongoing problem i suspect. Making a crashproof model out of EPP and tape is one thing, but trying to give it a reasonably scale appearence and paint scheme is something totally different again. No way does foam and tape stack up against balsa and silkspan in the cosmetics department. Still, I have a challenge now, don't I ? Belly landing on rough rubble strewn paddocks is hard on paint anyway. All going well, it will be presentable enough to photograph tomorrow, if I can keep it from blowing off the table These spring winds come straight from Antarctica.........
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Old 09-11-2010, 05:03 PM   #93
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Hey Michael sorry to hear about the psychotic plovers, but that makes flying all that more "exciting"! I have not used extruded polypropylene (yet), but then my conditions here in South Carolina are a little (okay, a LOT) more forgiving than Tasmanian winds, plovers, and mountains). I know you will pull the Arado out of this. Give my regards to the Tasmanian Luftwaffe.

Bob

"Dum spiro spero." (While I breathe, I hope).
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Old 09-11-2010, 08:04 PM   #94
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Michael on the finishing side it would be worth trying the Humbrol Matt Plastic Enamels. Even if they don't work a tinlet is really cheap and if they do it would be fantastic as you can get all the scale Luftwaffe colours you could ever wish for.

Barry
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Old 09-13-2010, 11:47 AM   #95
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Default some photo's

Originally Posted by baz49exe View Post
Michael on the finishing side it would be worth trying the Humbrol Matt Plastic Enamels. Even if they don't work a tinlet is really cheap and if they do it would be fantastic as you can get all the scale Luftwaffe colours you could ever wish for.

Barry
Thanks for the tip Barry. The problem seems to be the flexibility of the epp/tape construction method. On a hard surface it would be fine, but paint does not seem to adhere well to tape, or stretch and contract over the foam surfaces. Maybe If I didn't crash so often it wouldn't be a problem I am envious of you warbird finishes, and it is something to aspire too. Anyway, finally got some pics of this creation. True to form, the wind kept blowing it off the table, but I managed to take a couple. I would have preferred a camo finish, but the green will have to do for now. In the next few days I'll finish off the canopy details and the other rough spots. A couple of flights from now the mud, cow crap, rocks and bird strikes will make the cosmetics academic. I'm quite pleased with how it flies, which is the bottom line anyhow. One very obvious feature is it's silence. This has to be the quietest plane I have ever made- and I am at a loss to explain why. Almost no prop noise, and very little airframe noise with power off Apart from that it is very well behaved and should provide me with hours of relaxed flying for ages to come. Looking back, I have spent more time and money on this one project than any other, but it was worth it in the end.......now for the bomb release mechanism, and rocket assist........


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Old 09-13-2010, 11:58 AM   #96
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Default try again

and some pic's


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Old 09-13-2010, 06:33 PM   #97
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Great pics Micheal! That is another really interesting build. It looks good sitting on the table so I bet it's a great sight in the air.
If I had half your build rate I'd have filled the basement with planes by now. Trouble is I'm too lazy to get on with it. Too much to do, so little time!
On the painting side I bet the matt plastic enamel is much more flexible than a gloss paint .
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Old 09-14-2010, 04:20 AM   #98
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Default update

Thanks for the matt suggestion- I'll have to try it; satin and gloss acrylic doesn't seem to do it. Got up early (0530) for another test flight after re-assembly. Oddly enough there was no wind for about 1/2 hour, and my first handlaunch barely made it up. It skimmed the grass and then slowly climbed, but was otherwise fine. It looked great in the morning sunrise. The wind picked up considerably about an hour later, and the next flight was much less nerve wracking on take off. It's a heavy plane and needs a headwind to get airborne, and to slow it down on landing. I got it up so high I could no longer see the yellow nacelle intakes, then reduced power and did some practice recon runs . This is going to be a great camera plane It almost specked out, then got swallowed up by cloud cover, but then reappeared about 10 seconds later. Enough. So I brought her down for a rather hostile but safe landing, with 1/2 dozen plovers in tow. The paddock next door is due to be ploughed in about 2 weeks, so I'll only have that long to practice landing in a much more restricted area. Time to add the landing skid I suspect........
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:10 PM   #99
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That's just great Michael. I do wish that I could get up at 5-30am and fly right outside my door. Just great! I bet the 10 seconds in the cloud were very long seconds after your last experience with a disappearance into cloud. I do know exactly what you mean about needing a head wind to hand launch and land into, many of my glow powered fun fighters really needed it. Now what about some functioning sidewinders for the plovers. LOL
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Old 09-14-2010, 11:48 PM   #100
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Default speaking of which.....

My estes Alpha 3 arrived about two weeks back, and I am currently making some rocket assist pods out of the rocket motors that came with the kit. We have had about 12 flights up to about 400 metres, and the parachute recovery method is working well. The problem is simultaneous ignition for both pods, as well as not setting fire to the Arado, or myself, on handlaunch They also have an accessory charge to blow the top off the rocket at the end of the flight propellent. I figured out to how to launch a missile in flight ( just one is relatively straight forward), but it would be somewhat dangerously unguided; sort of my own version of an R4M. I doubt the surrounding farmers would be impressed any way, started work on the landing skid, and the radio just predicted 45-50 knot winds for up til friday with snow down to 400 metres Time to fly the Junkers again. Really strong winds actually ground the plovers, so there are benefits............cheers
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