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Old 03-28-2010, 04:53 AM   #1
AirmanAirhead
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Default Designing Planes that Fly

Is there a basic primer on plane design that helps one ease into things without needing a degree in aeronautics? I'd like to read up on the relationship between wing span, chord, length, wing surface, weight, loading, etc. I want to work with basic flat foam, I've built a number of scratch builds and enjoy it immensly and have had good luck with them.

I recently built a SlowBipe off of a picture (no plans). http://slowbipe.com/ I finally got it dialed in and having a kick flying it. It has it's own tendency's and I'm getting use to them.

I got the itch to try to build a real basic high wing three channel plane. My own design, sort of a poor man's Super Cub if you will. I want to use all flat foam, with a 1/2" thick fuse, and depron or Dollar tree foam for the wings etc. Similar to the Bipe I built. I'm pretty familiar with reinforcements, etc. and I've come up with some of my own solutions for flat foams weaknesses.

My goal is to learn as I go about basic aerodynamics and grow into things.

Thanks,
Jeff


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A pre-flight check is better than a post crash analysis
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Old 03-28-2010, 05:05 AM   #2
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Looks like you already have a handle on it! Really neat looking biplane with clever airfoil technique What's the wingspan and power package you are using?
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Old 03-28-2010, 05:19 AM   #3
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Cool

Hi Jeff
Pleased to meet you
Wow shes very cool, wonderful design
If you havent seen this already i think you will like this site
http://www.crazyplanes.de/
Take care
Hank

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Old 03-28-2010, 05:23 AM   #4
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Hey,
Nice job AA.. I really like the clever way yu are holding the airfoil. I thinks you are already an aircraft designer.. Can't wait to see future posts on your projects..

Bruce
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Old 03-28-2010, 05:28 AM   #5
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Hi Jeff there are a few things that help to make a plane fly good, one is wing area/ surface area, lots of wing/surface area is nice to have for a slow flier, weight to surface area will make a plane fly fast or slow, as more wing area = more wind drag., control surface area means a lot too, if your plane will be a slow flier, then more surface area on the control surfaces means alot, rather than having a 1" wide elevator or rudder a 1 1/2" wide rudder,elevator will have more control over the plane at slower speeds, power to weight ratio means a lot too, if you dont have enough power, the plane wont get out of its own way i like to give my planes at least a 1 to 1 power ratio, and sometimes a 2 to 1 power ratio I have a lot of fun designing my own planes, and i am very very happy when they fly right here is a nice little plane from RCG, its the STC

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354237


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Old 03-28-2010, 05:30 AM   #6
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Hey keep in mind guys and gals, I copied that from a picture, (slowbipe.com) that's not my design! But it was the first time that I tried building without an actual plan lay out. All I knew was the wing span, and length of the fuselage. The rest I guessed at trying to scale it knowing those two dimensions. Originally I had the wing incidence to negative which caused it to want to dive. I changed that (I need to update the photos) and I put a little down thrust on the motor. Both suggestions came from Michael Tiegs the original designer. I'm running a Scorpion Motor about 1150 KV, I can't remember the watt draw and a 3 cell 1300 battery and a 30 AMP turnegy ESC. I'm experimenting with props from a 9x4.7 to and 11. The plane is meant to fly real slow, so I don't run the motor up very much at all. I'm getting pretty long flights, 15 mins pretty easy. All up weight is 15.2 oz.

I will put up some video soon.

Thanks,
Jeff

A pre-flight check is better than a post crash analysis
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Videos
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Old 03-28-2010, 05:34 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by AirmanAirhead View Post
Hey keep in mind guys, I copied that from a picture, that's not my design! But it was the first time that I tried building without an actual plan lay out. All I knew was the wing span, and length of the fuselage. The rest I guessed at trying to scale it knowing those two dimensions. Originally I had the wing incidence to negative which caused it to want to dive. I changed that (I need to update the photos) and I put a little down thrust on the motor. Both suggestions came from Michael Tiegs the original designer. I'm running a Scorpion Motor about 1150 KV, I can't remember the watt draw and a 3 cell 1300 battery and a 30 AMP turnegy ESC. I'm experimenting with props from a 9x4.7 to and 11. The plane is meant to fly real slow, so I don't run the motor up very much at all. I'm getting pretty long flights, 15 mins pretty easy.

I will put up some video soon.

Thanks,
Jeff
Hi Jeff normally a 0, 0, incidence on the wing and elevator seems to work the best on most planes, it will keep the plane from wanting to pitch and dive, also a little motor down thrust will help to load the wing, making a flat wing very stable, 3 to 5 degrees of down trust seems to work the best


http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/show...ht=mavrick+cap


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Old 03-28-2010, 05:38 AM   #8
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Hey Chellie,

That's a cool looking little plane, (the cub) maybe I'll build that one off of the picture! Thanks for the tips. The comment you made about control surface area confirms what I learned on the SlowBipe. At first the elevator and rudder were too small, not much control at the very slow speed this flies at. Once I enlarged them I got much better control. This plane does the slowest loop ever! Video soon!

Jeff

A pre-flight check is better than a post crash analysis
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Old 03-28-2010, 05:39 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by AirmanAirhead View Post
Hey Chellie,

That's a cool looking little plane, maybe I'll build that one off of the picture! Thanks for the tips. The comment you made about control surface area confirms what I learned on the SlowBipe. At first the elevator and rudder were too small, not much control at the very slow speed this flies at. Once I enlarged them I got much better control. This plane does the slowest loop ever! Video soon!

Jeff
Kewl, waiting to see your video on the slow loops Take care, Chellie

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Old 03-28-2010, 08:05 AM   #10
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Hi Jeff,

I finally got around to sending you a PM but thought Id post here as well


This web site is an excellent place to start. If you follow the various subjects listed on the left side of the page it will give you a good start for designing your own planes. This site also has CG calculators for regular planes, bipes and canard models as well as tons of other good info on the home page.

http://adamone.rchomepage.com/index2.htm

The home page has more stuff.

http://adamone.rchomepage.com/index.html

Dont forget though that in a pinch, if you copy the proportions from a working plane - like a Cub for example - and just make every part to scale, then the model should fly as well as the full size version.

Good luck!

Larry

I think I need a signature.
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Old 03-28-2010, 11:05 AM   #11
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Default Aerodynamics?

Hello Jeff,
The site that Larry gave you (Admone) is a good one, here's a few more;
http://www.airfieldmodels.com/inform...ulas/index.htm
http://sky.prohosting.com/air2/index2.htm
http://www.profili2.com/eng/default.htm
And if you go here and scroll to "Aerodynamics", there's more;
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14117
Another bit of advice is Copy What Works. Few things in life are truly original, most are based on some previous concept. Once you get a design that flies, work to improve it and keep a record of the changes.
Also, I believe that after building several foam models, you may want to try one of your better home-designs in a built-up structure. Foam has the advantages of speed and ease of construction (and repair!), but is limited in ways. With a built-up wing you have many more airfoil choices and the aerodynamics are usually "cleaner", ie less overall drag and more efficiency.
Last, be careful when scaling full-size aircraft designs down to model size. There's a change that happens, called "Reynolds Number" that involves the size of air molecules and their ability to travel over a surface (based on the size and speed of the surface) that complicates things. Google Reynolds Number and Scale Factor for more info.
Good Luck!
Ron
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Old 03-28-2010, 03:15 PM   #12
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Larry and Ron,

Thanks for the links. So I asked, and I got what I asked for!! Now some reading is clearly in my future. Even though the SlowBipe was not my design, it was a fun challenge to build it off of a picture (of a model that already flew).

There's nothing like seeing something fly that you figured out, at least a bit. Chellie affirms that too!

Thanks again for all your help. These forums really are great.

Jeff

A pre-flight check is better than a post crash analysis
.
Videos
http://www.youtube.com/user/CaptGroovy#p/u
My Blog: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=239855
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Old 03-29-2010, 01:33 AM   #13
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Airman,

This might help.


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Old 03-30-2010, 04:11 PM   #14
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I build planes that crash... I'll have to try the "that fly" premise someday LOL
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Old 03-30-2010, 04:47 PM   #15
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Jeff, read this by Carlos Reyes: RCadvisor's Model Airplane Design Made Easy: http://www.amazon.com/RCadvisors-Mod...uthor_prod_0_0
I own it and it's pretty good. Just my 2 cents.

Originally Posted by AirmanAirhead View Post
Is there a basic primer on plane design that helps one ease into things without needing a degree in aeronautics? I'd like to read up on the relationship between wing span, chord, length, wing surface, weight, loading, etc. I want to work with basic flat foam, I've built a number of scratch builds and enjoy it immensly and have had good luck with them.

"Dum spiro spero." (While I breathe, I hope).
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Old 03-30-2010, 05:09 PM   #16
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Default SlowBipe Video

Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
Kewl, waiting to see your video on the slow loops Take care, Chellie
OK, here it is...

http://www.youtube.com/user/CaptGroo.../0/VM4_pBPwizY

A pre-flight check is better than a post crash analysis
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Videos
http://www.youtube.com/user/CaptGroovy#p/u
My Blog: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=239855
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Old 03-30-2010, 05:17 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Voyager2lcats View Post
Jeff, read this by Carlos Reyes: RCadvisor's Model Airplane Design Made Easy: http://www.amazon.com/RCadvisors-Mod...uthor_prod_0_0
I own it and it's pretty good. Just my 2 cents.
Hey thanks for the book recommendation. Looks like just what I was looking for. This along with all the other great info should move me along just fine.

AA

A pre-flight check is better than a post crash analysis
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Old 03-30-2010, 05:21 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Mysterious View Post
I build planes that crash... I'll have to try the "that fly" premise someday LOL

When I was in my 20's-40's I "knew" everything. Now in my 50's I finally realized I don't. And the old image "I gotta do this all on my own" is pretty much dead.

I admire the work that guys and gals do on this and other forums. So many tips and tricks it's great to share and the results often are "planes that fly" rather than the other kind.

Now keep in mind, I too can take a perfectly good plane and turn it into one that does not fly.....

AA

A pre-flight check is better than a post crash analysis
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Old 03-31-2010, 05:25 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by AirmanAirhead View Post
Thats a nice slow flier Bi Plane, Good Job it looks like fun, Take care, Chellie

I may be getting Older, But I Refuse to grow Up I am Having to much Fun to Grow Up LOL
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Old 03-31-2010, 05:37 AM   #20
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Thanks Chellie,

Jeff

A pre-flight check is better than a post crash analysis
.
Videos
http://www.youtube.com/user/CaptGroovy#p/u
My Blog: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=239855
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Old 08-25-2010, 02:06 PM   #21
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Default Sorry for stealing the thread a bit but ........

Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
Hi Jeff there are a few things that help to make a plane fly good, one is wing area/ surface area, lots of wing/surface area is nice to have for a slow flier, weight to surface area will make a plane fly fast or slow, as more wing area = more wind drag., control surface area means a lot too, if your plane will be a slow flier, then more surface area on the control surfaces means alot, rather than having a 1" wide elevator or rudder a 1 1/2" wide rudder,elevator will have more control over the plane at slower speeds, power to weight ratio means a lot too, if you dont have enough power, the plane wont get out of its own way i like to give my planes at least a 1 to 1 power ratio, and sometimes a 2 to 1 power ratio I have a lot of fun designing my own planes, and i am very very happy when they fly right here is a nice little plane from RCG, its the STC

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354237

Originally Posted by AirmanAirhead View Post
Thanks Chellie,

Jeff
Me to are thinking about building a plane, a flat 3D plane for indor flying.
There are a lot of people with expert knowledge answering Jeffs questions in this thread so I will throw in a small question for my self (Hope you do not mind Jeff).
Is it possible to take a silouette picture like below and cut it out of depron and expect it to fly?
Maybe with a bit bigger contril surface.
With a wingspan of about 800mm I think I can get the waight to around 150 - 160 gram.
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Old 08-25-2010, 03:01 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Petrik59 View Post
Me to are thinking about building a plane, a flat 3D plane for indor flying.
There are a lot of people with expert knowledge answering Jeffs questions in this thread so I will throw in a small question for my self (Hope you do not mind Jeff).
Is it possible to take a silouette picture like below and cut it out of depron and expect it to fly?
Maybe with a bit bigger contril surface.
With a wingspan of about 800mm I think I can get the waight to around 150 - 160 gram.
Hi Petrik
Pleased to meet you
This may be of help
And here scroll down to free plans
http://www.foamyfactory.com/airplanes.htm
Take care
Hank

"When wild the head-wind beat,Thy sovereign Will commanding, Bring them who dare to fly, To a safe landing."
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Old 08-25-2010, 09:55 PM   #23
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Thanks hank,
But I have already built some planes from others plans like 3DX-Mini and Gene Bonds Blu-51.
What I like to do is jyst try to make something that flyes out of a picture like this.

Can I just cut out the ving part then cut the fusledge in one upper and one lower part and glue them to the Ving/fuseldge and expect it to fly?
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Old 08-25-2010, 10:05 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Petrik59 View Post
Thanks hank,
But I have already built some planes from others plans like 3DX-Mini and Gene Bonds Blu-51.
What I like to do is jyst try to make something that flyes out of a picture like this.

Can I just cut out the ving part then cut the fusledge in one upper and one lower part and glue them to the Ving/fuseldge and expect it to fly?
Hi Petrik
With some experimentation and tweaks i dont see why not
Since you have experiance with building models use what you have learned
Getting the wing and control surfaces right would be the keys to a model the flies well
Give it a shot and please do post your results
Take care
Hank

"When wild the head-wind beat,Thy sovereign Will commanding, Bring them who dare to fly, To a safe landing."
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Old 09-01-2010, 03:55 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by AirmanAirhead View Post
Is there a basic primer on plane design that helps one ease into things without needing a degree in aeronautics? I'd like to read up on the relationship between wing span, chord, length, wing surface, weight, loading, etc. I want to work with basic flat foam, I've built a number of scratch builds and enjoy it immensly and have had good luck with them.

I recently built a SlowBipe off of a picture (no plans). http://slowbipe.com/ I finally got it dialed in and having a kick flying it. It has it's own tendency's and I'm getting use to them.

I got the itch to try to build a real basic high wing three channel plane. My own design, sort of a poor man's Super Cub if you will. I want to use all flat foam, with a 1/2" thick fuse, and depron or Dollar tree foam for the wings etc. Similar to the Bipe I built. I'm pretty familiar with reinforcements, etc. and I've come up with some of my own solutions for flat foams weaknesses.

My goal is to learn as I go about basic aerodynamics and grow into things.

Thanks,
Jeff

Jeff if your really serious about design your best bet is to start here

http://www.rcmplans.com/issues/reque...101989-1-1.pdf

This will give your the basic design perimeters and will result in models that will fly usually without to many trim change. Then just change the perimeters a little like shorting the fuselage an inch or so and you will have a totally different model to fly. There are several columns that the above address and this is just the first one. Read them all and you will totally enjoy design and building the rest of your life.

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What would you change if you were designing the Blade CP? Ron S E-Flite Helicopters 32 02-12-2006 06:47 AM


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