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Old 01-06-2007, 11:18 PM   #51
bry2254
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Originally Posted by TLyttle View Post
I have a copy of an old editorial by Norm Goyer (SRCM) where he points out that the success of the hobby depends on effective beginners programs. He also points out that clubs in Germany are REQUIRED to have a program, or they lose their charter and, likely, their flying field. This is what I have advocated for quite awhile for this simple reason: clubs, and their members, would certainly tune up their attitudes towards beginners!

I know of a number of clubs that welcome a beginner with the same enthusiasm as they would an irate skunk, or a bull moose in rut. Goodbye beginner. Wrong attitude!

Our "club" always had a program, and we had a failsafe trainer: MB's old Dragonfly, designed (if I remember correctly) by Tex Newman. I built one (actually there were 4 more built from the plans), installed an old 09 diesel, and a radio. It taught the basics, it flew EVERY time, and was almost impossible to crash (full-down dive must have been at least 18mph, plenty of time to correct with a gentle word like "No, THIS is up...)

If every club built one of these so that a beginner could try out the hobby before dumping a couple of hundred bucks (or pounds, or lire, whatever), any one of the club members could be the instructor. I taught people from 8 to 80 to fly on the ol' Dragonfly, without it interfering with my own flying very much.

Time to put the egos aside, guys, and invest in this hobby, and stop treating beginners like an infestation.
I am in one of those, catch 22 place's, only one club, and they seem to have there own little circle of friend's, And I am into flying electric only, so I am not one of the guy's invited to share any info! I just recently found a club 40 mile's away, and will be checking it out.
Or else I will continue to fly on my own, and take my own chance's. Wish I could name the club so they would wake up, but I will not. They can have there fun with there few member's, I can see how there membership will never grow! Five year's ago 40 member's-and now 38 as of today!
Thank's Bry
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Old 01-07-2007, 01:39 AM   #52
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Yeah, don't depend on those guys to wake up until they are forced to, hence my point about making beginners programs a condition of their Charter. They will continue their "No room! No room!" attitudes, then yowl and scream when they lose their site... or their Charter.

Get the backing of the local hobby shop to help you find a good electric site; often they will find that the relationship is symbiotic, and helpful for their business.
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Old 01-07-2007, 03:52 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by bry2254 View Post
I am in one of those, catch 22 place's, only one club, and they seem to have there own little circle of friend's, And I am into flying electric only, so I am not one of the guy's invited to share any info! I just recently found a club 40 mile's away, and will be checking it out.

Thank's Bry
I strongly recommend you hang with the club for a while. Acceptance among strangers is rarely immediate. You have to earn your way into the circle.

Just be a good flyer. Show proper respect to the experienced flyers. You don't have to do what they say but you should be open to their input. You may find they have a lot to offer if you are willing ot accept.

Once your knowledge and experience is recognized, you will gain stading.

Offer to help with events. Be a worker bee! You wil become part of the inner circle really fast.

I had exactly the same experience. I am now a VP, 4 years later.

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Old 01-08-2007, 02:02 AM   #54
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Inner circle? Okay, sounds decidedly unfriendly to me. We used to pay attention to everyone that came on the field and their level of interest. If they were just tirekickers, we would answer their questions, if they were really interested we would make sure they got a bit of stick time and some recommendations if they wanted to get into the hobby. Same with freeflight: I had an old Matador with a diesel on it, and anyone could fly it if they wanted. Clubs would be way friendlier if their existence depended on it!

I speak in the past tense because I am out in the boonies, no club, all the flying sites I can use. My experiences in the big city are legit, and after 35 years, I know how things work. I/we started a few clubs (different disciplines, different cities), dealt with the flying site issues, worked hard to be attractive to beginners. If anyone tells you that they really have no obligation to help beginners, then clearly they have ego issues.

Sure, spend some time with the club, but when you are "accepted", remember what crap you went through the next time you see a beginner walk onto the field...
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Old 01-08-2007, 02:32 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by TLyttle View Post
Inner circle? Okay, sounds decidedly unfriendly to me. ...
All human organizations have inner circles. Sometimes there are many circles.

Even when you are friendly with "tire kickers" they are not "really" family till they have been around a while.

Of course you may live in a different society, but that is how I have the behavior of mankind.

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Old 01-08-2007, 05:26 AM   #56
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Gee, Ed, most of the people I dealt with were human, and we sure had to deal with many different types of humanity. We felt that in order to advance the hobby in our area (a concept lost on many clubs) we were obliged to make the tirekickers as welcome as possible. It isn't until they have seen the hobby (and the club!) in action do dthey feel comfortable joining the "family". Some are just curious, no reason not to give them an education, no matter how brief or incomplete, into what you are doing and why. The people who are beyond curious MUST be fully apprised of the hobby, its difficulties, its benefits, and its social possibilities. Not too many other hobbies where the guy on welfare, the kid with a couple of bucks in his jeans, and the retiree are ALL on the same field having a good time, learning from each other, having a laugh together. Family? Maybe, but any single-interest group becomes a family under the right circumstances. Coming from a family with little in common, I understand that not all families function well. I also understand that mankind is not noted for all behaving the same way.

An organisation that shuns outsiders is bound to shrink, as the circles subdivide and eventually disappear into a morass of individuals, a situation I would rather not see in the modelling world. We are alreaddy subdivided enough into catagories and disciplines: freeflight, control line, and r/c have divided into competition, sport, scale, non-scale, indoor, outdoor, ever finer divisions. I don't see that as a reason not to talk to each other and share what we are doing with others, PARTICULARLY beginners!

Our group had experienced, long term members, but I don't remember anyone accusing us of being an "inner circle"; we were all willing to share our knowledge and experience, and to a man were willing to help a beginner. I honestly don't remember ANY person, beginner or tirekicker who was not welcome to our group.

So I guess we WERE living in a different society...
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Old 01-08-2007, 01:44 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by TLyttle View Post
So I guess we WERE living in a different society...
I guess so.

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Old 01-08-2007, 06:02 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by TLyttle View Post
Inner circle? Okay, sounds decidedly unfriendly to me. We used to pay attention to everyone that came on the field and their level of interest. If they were just tirekickers, we would answer their questions, if they were really interested we would make sure they got a bit of stick time and some recommendations if they wanted to get into the hobby. Same with freeflight: I had an old Matador with a diesel on it, and anyone could fly it if they wanted. Clubs would be way friendlier if their existence depended on it!

I speak in the past tense because I am out in the boonies, no club, all the flying sites I can use. My experiences in the big city are legit, and after 35 years, I know how things work. I/we started a few clubs (different disciplines, different cities), dealt with the flying site issues, worked hard to be attractive to beginners. If anyone tells you that they really have no obligation to help beginners, then clearly they have ego issues.

Sure, spend some time with the club, but when you are "accepted", remember what crap you went through the next time you see a beginner walk onto the field...
Remember the crap you went through, but do not pass it on!
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Old 01-08-2007, 06:26 PM   #59
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The club I fly is primarily gas, and there are those few that are "clickish." But for the most part, I've never been turned away with my elec wing, and have even been complimented by some of the old timers that have been flying for many moons. Most the people there are quite friendly and willing to help if needed.

Travis

If you enjoy it, share it!
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Old 01-09-2007, 04:46 AM   #60
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Exactly right Bry, try to break the chain... Others will learn that you are a benefit to the club by gaining support for the club and the hobby.

Looks like Travis found a worthwhile club!
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Old 01-09-2007, 11:58 AM   #61
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If you want to change the nature of a club, change it through example and leadership. And the best way to become a leader is through service.

Help the new guys. Reach out to them immediately. Become a teacher, either formally or informally. If you become a go to guy for help, you will develop a following who will likely allign with you.

Become one of the worker bees, one of the people who can be counted on to help with the work of the club, who pitches in for contests or events or the like. Soon you contribution will be recognized and others will be looking to you, as a leader.

Through service to the club you also come to understand the nature of the club. You come to see why people are of the opinon they are and why they want to see things run as they are. If you want to change peoples attitueds and prospectives, first seek to understand why they think that way. You may discover that you wish to adopt some of their ideas, though not necessarily all of them.

In organizations where people are not paid for their time, it is those who work or end up leading the group. Likewise, if you want to change a group, recruit people of like mind. Get them working with you. The people who do the work, if they grow in numbers will control the club.

If you don't like the tone of the club, change it. That is how you do it but it takes work and time. Meanwhile enjoy those aspects of the club that you like and work toward the change of those you do not.

Or, pack up your things and go elsewhere.


Now, having said that, I would like to turn this topic back to its original intention. This is not about clubs and club politics. This is about helping people learn to fly. Can we get back on that track please?

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Old 01-21-2007, 09:10 PM   #62
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i think i have done my fair share of ruining some boys' parents' wallets by letting them have a go on buddy box you have a great feeling that you have done some good except from ruining there wallets by keeping the "extortionate" hobby going(i bet my dad wishes he didnt get me into flying)

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Then it's hilarious!
... unless of course it's your eye. " msnyder (Rc Groups)
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Old 01-25-2007, 05:05 PM   #63
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great thread.... but i have noticed most clubs do not advertise that there will be someone around to help, for whatever reason.. this kinda keeps newbies away. and if you have no r/c experience, it will end up being a bad experience and they wont be back. that is so sad because its all about makin new flyers out of land lubbers! jus my cents..... vetter
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Old 01-26-2007, 02:31 AM   #64
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Gnnnnhhh, I just KNOW that Ed wouldn't appreciate my answer on his thread to that post...
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Old 01-26-2007, 03:21 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by CORVETTER89 View Post
great thread.... but i have noticed most clubs do not advertise that there will be someone around to help, for whatever reason.. this kinda keeps newbies away. and if you have no r/c experience, it will end up being a bad experience and they wont be back. that is so sad because its all about makin new flyers out of land lubbers! jus my cents..... vetter
I find that hard to believe. Most clubs don't advertise at all.

The whole purpose of a club is for people of like mind and interest to band together to help each other.

Our club doesn't advertise either. Somehow, by magic, people get trained. Funny how that works.

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Old 01-26-2007, 04:01 AM   #66
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Holy smokes you guys really realy really put alot of thought into this.
I have tried teaching a two friends with little success. thanks so much for the advice.
-Jason
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Old 03-04-2007, 05:48 AM   #67
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Talking on clubs & Helping People Learn to Fly....some clubs are OK,while others are less or worse...If,when one is new to this hobby,and don't find support from others....he'll most probably quit before you know it!..much more if he or she starts with a strange model.......I have seen guys being put off from club members,just because they don't fancy them ..OR..they don't want the culb to be more populated!
So, for does who want to learn on their own..or with minimal help.A kit like the Multiplex easystar or easyglider,will get you in there---promise!
R-9.

LIFE IS NOW- Fly your models!
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Old 03-12-2007, 12:30 AM   #68
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Its not like a job. I don't NEED the hobby. I do it because its FUN. If one doesn't get a smile back when one visits a club and everyone is standoffish then one doesn't see "fun" and doesn't come back. R/c has been around quite a while and electric and teaching yourself is so big because of that feeling that is too often projected by clubs. Nothing against modelers. Lots of sports clubs and even churches fall into the similar cliqueie kind of thing. "Politics" is only fun to very few people.
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Old 03-12-2007, 02:02 AM   #69
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We seem to have a number of divergent universes here!

One - the guys who are more than happy to freely pass on their considerable skills, developed over many years of the best kind of experience - actually flying and thinking about it.

NOT to be confused with the inevitable jerk that most large clubs are issued with - who will happily take the newby's model, sling it all over the sky, maybe even wreck it (who said they have to actually be a good flier?), sling the tranny back at the newby and either let them wreck it, or just disparage the model as not worthy of their august time and effort.

Next - howineck do we get the short attention span to actually read anything longer than an IM?

I love the gentle hint that if you don't join a club, you are an outside. This is so obvious, I can't see how blind one would have to be in order to miss it.

Now to toss in my own two cents worth. I was taught to fly by a very experienced RC flier. His first condition was that I would do what he told me to. He was not there as a backstop, so when I royally fouled up my weaving around the sky, he could save my model from re-kitting when I slung the tranny at him with said model ten feet up, full power, inverted and diving near vertical. In short, he was teaching me to fly and I better learn.

What Kevin taught me got my trainer through flight school intact, and left me with my first aim in RC flight being that I'm in charge, the model is not part of some committee decision on where its going next. That attitude, with some little practice saw me all the way to glider, scale, pylon racing and even an FAI pattern comp.

Since then, I have laid that down to anyone who asked me for my help. If they merely want someone to give up their flying time watching until it goes too far out of hand for their limited skills, they need to talk to a more understanding tree hugger type.

It works too - one of my students back in England went solo in three weekends and went on to be nearly as good a flier as his instructor , on those terms.

There's a lot to this - it starts before every flight, when the flight and its aims are discussed, questioned and sorted out. It's something I learned watching and listening to some of the best - RAF instructor pilots.

Oddly enough, it was acceptable back in England, but not so in the US. Not sure why - a higher sense of entitlement that demands things be laid on for the important, maybe, though the attitudes around DC are different to the "real" parts of the US I've visited...

More food for thought, or at least a light snack?

D
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Old 03-12-2007, 02:04 AM   #70
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Excellent post, Lanny, right on target. I, too wouldn't be in this hobby if I wasn't get a boot out of it, even after 60 years. I also get a kick out of seeing "the light" go on when a student finally makes the connection. We ran "groups" rather than clubs, simply to get rid of the politics: we did what needed to be done because we wanted to, not because it was our "job". Works much better!
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Old 03-28-2007, 12:06 AM   #71
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Hi Ed, after reading part of your Teaching someone to fly I came upon the part that says check list an yes if you don't mind I would like to have it cause I'm one of those novice, Last year was my first year and well you the rest, so any help will be appreciated.
Thanks Jean Forgues
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Old 03-28-2007, 01:10 AM   #72
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PREFLIGHT AND FIRST FLIGHT PROCEDURES FOR PARKFLYERS
by Ed Anderson
aeajr on the forums

Here are some quick tips and a "check sheet" for preparing your parkflyer for
launch. If you are a new pilot, you really need to heed the wind caution.
If you are experienced, use your own judgment.

Here is how you prepare for your first flights. Skip a step and you open
yourself to problems.

Respect the wind - For new pilots, dead calm to 3 MPH is perfect. No more
than 5 MPH for
early/training flights or you will be fighting the wind, not flying the plane.

1) Make sure no one is on your channel BEFORE you turn on your radio. If
someone is flying on your channel and you turn on your radio, they will crash!
Check first!

2) Do a range check before the first launch of the day

3) Make sure that battery is fully charged just before the launch. Not 3 days
ago. Not last week. Last night or today!

4) Make sure all your surfaces are properly aligned and move properly before
you launch. Check the manual if the surfaces do not appear to be properly
aligned. Also make sure your wing is straight!

5) CHECK THE TRIMS! Check the trim slides on the side and below the stick(s).
Be sure you have not bumped one out of position. A bumped trim can cause the
plane to crash. Make sure the surfaces are properly alligned on the tail and
the wings.

6) Always launch and land into the wind - ALWAYS

7) If you are hand launching, - good firm level throw or only very slightly
up. Never
throw the plane upward - Always use full throttle!

8) Let it fly out and gain speed. I would say a minimum of 50 feet, and 100
would be better. From a hand throw, it will drop a bit, that is OK. It
should start to climb
all on its own. If you use the elevator, only use a small amount.

The plane must get up to speed before applying strong elevator. Apply the
elevator
too soon and you will "stall" the wing, the nose will drop and you will crash.

IF THIS IS YOUR FIRST FLIGHT AND YOU ARE LEARNING ON YOUR OWN

If your field will allow it, launch, fly out 100 feet or so then come back to
about 1/4 throttle and let
the plane drift down for a landing straight ahead. Just before the plane
touches the ground, cut the motor and glide it in.

Use the rudder to keep it straight. Avoid turns. Do this a few times till
you understand how the plane launches and lands. Then you can go for climbs
and turns.

I fly electrics and gliders. With my gliders, I ALWAYS do a test glide, with
a hand throw, straight out then glide to the ground before launching off the
hi-start or the
winch. This confirms that the plane is balanced and everything works right.
Good idea for
electrics as well using that straight out launch, under power, then land.
Saves much damage and embarrassment.

If the plane is properly trimmed, it should climb on its own at full throttle
or require only a small amount of up elevator.

Use the elevator carefully! Unless you are going for a loop, use small
elevator inputs. Too much up elevator with the plane flying too slowly will
cause the nose to rise, the wing to stall and the nose to drop. Do this near
the ground and you crash.

Flight tips

Keep your control movement smooth and don't over do it. Turn before you need
to so you can give the plane time to react. This is called thinking ahead of
the plane. Plan you moves.

For three channel parkflyers that use rudder/elevator or two channels that
only have rudder, don't hold rudder commands for more than a couple of
seconds. On these planes, rudder commands will cause the plane to bank, or
tip over in the direction of the turn. That is good because that is how they
turn. However, if you hold the rudder too long, the
bank will continue to steepen to the point where the wing will lose lift and
you will go into a dive or spiral in for a crash.

Of course you read the whole manual several times and watched any videos that
might have come with the plane before you fly.

Clear Skies and Safe Flying!




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Old 03-29-2007, 12:44 AM   #73
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Thank you Ed very much apreciated
Jean
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Old 03-29-2007, 02:49 AM   #74
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Glad to help!

Hope we see a lot of you around here.

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Old 04-21-2007, 06:29 PM   #75
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I have been flying for just a few short months now. My son and I have an Easystar and a brushless Mini-Telemaster we got as ARFs. We have a local club here with a flying field and probably the usual club people. I did not go there to learn to fly, too far when I can fly in a bigger field at home. I have a few acres out back surrounded by about 50 acres of grass fields which was the perfect place for us to learn to fly. My son and I are getting pretty good at it and can fly in 10mph winds with the Easystar. But I have some friends that tried to learn on thier own and they cannot fly. They crash. Instructors are not for everybody but they can save you a lot of money when you are first learning. Even I, as newbie, have been handed a controller by someone when their plane is in a death spiral and they need help NOW!

To say the least I have become an expert at Elapor foam repair. Just had some soup brewing yesterday. Grandpa nosedived the easystar trying to learn yesterday. Do you need an instructor? For some not really. Do some people know how to learn to fly better then others? Oh yes, but I don’t think that is the norm for everyone. In my case I am demoting Grandpa back to the simulator! Maybe some of the old guys at the club can help him better then I.
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