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Old 11-30-2010, 12:40 PM   #1
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Default AMA vs FAA...

Reading the editorials in Model Aviation, it looks like the FAA may be moving to limit RC flying. The AMA is meeting with the FAA to discuss the issues.

What are your thoughts, or observations as to where you think this is going?

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Old 11-30-2010, 01:24 PM   #2
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What is the scope of the proposed rule, and has it been published under the APA yet?
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Old 11-30-2010, 01:26 PM   #3
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No it has not. It is supposed to come out mid summer.

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Old 11-30-2010, 06:09 PM   #4
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I'm pretty sure the FAA has limited RC flying since at least the 1980s. The AMA is supposed to operate under those rules.

I recall seeing a FAA document limiting RPVs to under 400' AGL and imposing other limits when you are within a specific distance of an airport.


Of course, it is not uncommon to see AMA events where the 400' rule is violated. Pretty much any glider competition will bust 400'.


Ah, here it is:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...C?OpenDocument

You have to operate <400' and >3 miles from an airport. Any flying outside those parameters would put you in violation.
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:34 PM   #5
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Look for restrictions on Turbine, and FPV. Probably include stronger definition on park flyer also.

Its a post 9/11 world, and stuff is gonna happen. I do not anticipate any dramatic change in the current way we do things, but stay tuned very closely.

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Old 11-30-2010, 06:43 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Nitro Blast View Post
Look for restrictions on Turbine, and FPV. Probably include stronger definition on park flyer also.

Its a post 9/11 world, and stuff is gonna happen. I do not anticipate any dramatic change in the current way we do things, but stay tuned very closely.

I don't see any major changes either. I mean, we are in violation of the regulation as it stands now, so why would the FAA making another regulation change anything?

Virtually every flight at IRCHA ended in a big auto-rotation. Did any of those helis go above 400' during the auto? If so, then it's pretty obvious that no one really cares what the FAA has to say about model aircraft.

And if no one cares today, then why would anyone care next year? As far as I know, the FAA has no teeth to bite us with.
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:55 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Nitro Blast View Post
Look for restrictions on Turbine, and FPV. Probably include stronger definition on park flyer also.

Its a post 9/11 world, and stuff is gonna happen. I do not anticipate any dramatic change in the current way we do things, but stay tuned very closely.
I actually was hearing a complete ban on Turbine models. Can't remember where I was reading that now, but suspect that wont happen and someone was just trying to stir up emotion.

It will be interesting to see what comes of it.

As a modeler I am just concerned as the whole tone feels different. I would have guessed the FAA would not really give 10 minutes to the modeling world as we are such a tiny piece of aviation. I guess the FAA feels it is not so tiny anymore.

At any rate, while the AMA is certainly not perfect, I am sure glad we have a national voice, instead of just being a group of unorganized hobbyists.

I really do wonder what would happen without any voice for us on the Hill. Scary really.

Mike
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Old 11-30-2010, 08:16 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
As a modeler I am just concerned as the whole tone feels different. I would have guessed the FAA would not really give 10 minutes to the modeling world as we are such a tiny piece of aviation. I guess the FAA feels it is not so tiny anymore.

Mike
I definitely agree. It appears to me that the FAA received a wakeup call under the homeland security concerns over the proliferation of sUAS. Unfortunately for us the lines between "our" RC models and small commercial uavs is becoming blurred. The technical advances in radio equipment and FVP have become almost a "be careful what you ask for" type of thing.

There was a proposal that members of a national modeling organization would be exempt but that seems to be off the table. The real problem appears to be that the FAA has not published the proposed rules for comment yet.

As you said, at least we have some representation, it will renaming to be seen what affect/weight carries.

Unfortunately, this reminds me of gun control. Rules only apply to those who agree to follow them. I can't carry a gun without taking a course, registering, fingerprinting etc but that doesn't stop the criminal from doing so.

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Old 11-30-2010, 08:17 PM   #9
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Well, I suppose the threshold question is whether "We" are a part of "aviation," or a potential hazard to navigation: either way, "We" get hosed.
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Old 11-30-2010, 09:25 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Azarr View Post
The real problem appears to be that the FAA has not published the proposed rules for comment yet.

Azarr
Spot on.

Makes you wonder why, other than they are a governmental agency and nothing works on time. I guess that is part of that whole "tone" thing that just feels different.

Sometimes the most stupid voice gets heard the most. Homeland security may be playing that role right now. And they get what they want - period.

Going to be an interesting 2011.

Mike
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:40 PM   #11
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All it will take is for some nutter - like the recent one who thought he was getting a free bomb from religious thugs to kill kids and holiday shoppers with - to buy a RC model, strap some kind of bomb on it and kill a few people and we'll either be grounded or have to pay for police attendance at all flying sites, pat-downs from TSA at site entries and who knows what else.

Don't smirk in the back. Most of my RAF service in England, we lived with the threat of the IRA's thugs and murderers. For years in England, there were no trash bins on railway stations after a brave IRA 'soldier' tossed a time-bomb into one and successfully killed a young father of two on his way home to his family.

Fortunately, 'we' - or folk who could stop them - knew where this trash was coming from, making it easier to weed them out. Ask the IRA thugs who were going to blow up a tourist crowd on the Rock of Gibraltar.

Actually, you can't. The SAS got to them first.

It is regretable that 'civilisation' - the US in this case - must either respond to terrorist threats in retrospect or take a 'best guess' on action to stop such in advance. Often idly think its a shame these thugs don't belong to countries - a suggestion of a levelled city near their site of government could be a very strong message to a foreign government.

Why not? You who carry guns are, I assume, willing to use them in self-defence. The above is of much the same ilk, though larger in scale

Take our small case - who in the US will argue against forbidding large RC models with FPV if the public was told by Big TV that such could be used to kill US citizens?

The answer's the AMA, but I don't envy them the task. Far less so if such an event happens, or even nearly happens, thanks to people we don't know much about and who don't suffer Politically Correct Police rules against profiling and suchlike.

If some thug - terrorist or wannabe - tries to pull this off and, hopefully, is stopped or just discovered like the latest moron, the press will be able to sell many commercials off pushing it out there and the public will want suchlike out of US skies.

At which point, any model over about a pound and all FPV equipment would become garage ornaments.

For those against so much security - would you like to be sitting on an airliner when a bomb tears the airframe apart? It could impact your life far more than being 'patted down' at check-in.

Affects on our trivial little hobby?

The vast majority these day are not aeromodellers, they are hobby buyers. So, they get chased off the park they fly in, they'll go buy an ATV and chew up forest trails, whatever video game they've been told to buy or similar 'consumer products'.

Aeromodellers who really love this hobby will take up indoor FF rubber power in our living rooms, or maybe controlled, secure indoor RC with ultra-light models (stick fuselages only, no built ups that would allow bombs to be hidden therein )

Or perhaps a model train layout isn't that bad an idea ?

D
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:47 PM   #12
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Good post Dereck, Makes me wish I hadn't sold off all my model train stuff last winter now!

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Old 12-02-2010, 08:14 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Xptical View Post
I'm pretty sure the FAA has limited RC flying since at least the 1980s. The AMA is supposed to operate under those rules.

I recall seeing a FAA document limiting RPVs to under 400' AGL and imposing other limits when you are within a specific distance of an airport.


Of course, it is not uncommon to see AMA events where the 400' rule is violated. Pretty much any glider competition will bust 400'.


Ah, here it is:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...C?OpenDocument

You have to operate <400' and >3 miles from an airport. Any flying outside those parameters would put you in violation.
Originally Posted by Xptical View Post
I don't see any major changes either. I mean, we are in violation of the regulation as it stands now, so why would the FAA making another regulation change anything?

Virtually every flight at IRCHA ended in a big auto-rotation. Did any of those helis go above 400' during the auto? If so, then it's pretty obvious that no one really cares what the FAA has to say about model aircraft.

And if no one cares today, then why would anyone care next year? As far as I know, the FAA has no teeth to bite us with.
I just want to clear up some misconceptions on these two posts. There currently are no hard rules on RC as enforced by the FAA. That Advisory Circular from 1981 is just that, an advisory. These are not hard and fast rules. The first item says it clearly:

1. PURPOSE. This advisory circular outlines, and encourages voluntary compliance with, safety standards for model aircraft operators. (Bold added for emphasis)

Also, there is no rule stating you cannot fly within 3 miles of an airport. The advisory states that the airport operator should be made aware of any operations within 3 miles of the airport. In fact, there are several airports that allow model flying right on the field itself.

The proposed rules have already been posted, and the AMA submitted their initial response in the beginning of September. I'll go dig up a link.

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Old 12-02-2010, 10:13 PM   #14
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Regardless of what some people have put into posts, it is good to have a large National organization working for you. Just recently, the NAR (National Asosiation of Rocketry) won a case against the government that would have pretty much put model rocketry out of business. And I believe NAR is a LOT smaller than AMA, I forget either 5,000 or 50,000 members. I think the smaller number.

Maybe the AMA can simmilarly prevail over the Chicken Littles?
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Old 12-02-2010, 11:57 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Xptical View Post
I'm pretty sure the FAA has limited RC flying since at least the 1980s. The AMA is supposed to operate under those rules.

I recall seeing a FAA document limiting RPVs to under 400' AGL and imposing other limits when you are within a specific distance of an airport.

Of course, it is not uncommon to see AMA events where the 400' rule is violated. Pretty much any glider competition will bust 400'.


Ah, here it is:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...C?OpenDocument

You have to operate <400' and >3 miles from an airport. Any flying outside those parameters would put you in violation.
Originally Posted by Nitro Blast View Post
Look for restrictions on Turbine, and FPV. Probably include stronger definition on park flyer also.

Its a post 9/11 world, and stuff is gonna happen. I do not anticipate any dramatic change in the current way we do things, but stay tuned very closely.
That could have a very dramatic change for the glider/sailplane pilots, as Xciptial pointed out. His observation applies to thermalling in general, not just competitions!

Hopefully if such a devistating regulation is enacted (God and common sence forbid!) it will only apply to urban or suberban areas, and those near selective areas. At least then those areas out in the country and not near any possible target will still leave us with some places to fly.

I'm A.M.A. and I vote!

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Old 12-03-2010, 09:02 PM   #16
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Looks like someone is forcing the issue:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2...no-arrests.ars
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Old 12-03-2010, 11:02 PM   #17
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Good Post Xptical,This kind'a stuff gonna get the Fed's knocking on all our doors demanding our TX's go "uptown" for questioning, bubsteve

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Old 12-05-2010, 06:28 AM   #18
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Wow nice video! While I'm watching, I kept thinking: 'boy Bin Laden would love seeing this!'. He don't need anything big. Just dive it into a city bus......BOOM! And the screws turn ever tighter on the US population. The government/TSA/Dept. of Security will do it all for him.
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Old 12-05-2010, 11:49 AM   #19
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I have not been following this whole sUAS issue as closely as I should. Am I concerned about major changes for us modelers? No, not really. In my opinion, I do not see much that is going to effect me. I do not fly FPV or turbines, nor do I fly in parks or schools. My flying is done at chartered club where we are all AMA members.

What I am concerned about is the new rules that may impact those guys who do fly FPVs, turbines, and those that fly in city parks, schools, open farm land, or construction sites or even non-powered gliders. I'm concerned that the FAA may be putting a stop to, or severely limiting those activities by making them so restrictive that we cannot do what we have been doing for years now. The comment about the FAA has no teeth may or may not be true, but I sure wouldn't want to risk anything I worked so hard for to obtain if I were to be caught flying a model aircraft where it was illegal to do so.

Some may think that these new rules only pertain to big models, but here is one of the sUAS that is being used today.



Looks to me like your average park flier.

After reading this thread, I think I am going to be digging into what is going on and see what we as the average modeler can do to help. I know one thing though, I am glad we have the AMA on our side to help protect what "rights" we have right now to fly model aircraft where and when we do. The problem is that, the AMA is only as strong as its membership base. I'm sure there are a lot of people that fly RC aircraft that are not members. If you were considering joining, now may be the best time to do so. There is strength in numbers.

If I come across more info relative to this subject, I'll be sure to link it in this thread. If anything, it will help me to understand more of what is coming down the road and may help others as well. The future of aeromodeling may be changing and it doesn't look like it is for the better.

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Old 12-05-2010, 12:01 PM   #20
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A search of the AMA forum resulted in a very informative FAQ.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/FAAARCFAQs8.pdf

Frank

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Old 12-05-2010, 03:00 PM   #21
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And found another: http://www.modelaircraft.org/news/ama-faa.aspx

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Old 12-05-2010, 11:47 PM   #22
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Found some more interesting reading. Not facts, but some more points of view for anyone wanting to learn more.

http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=58585

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Old 12-06-2010, 05:32 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post
My flying is done at chartered fields where we are all AMA members.

Frank
What's a "chartered field"? Is this a local thing. The AMA does not sanction or charter flying fields.

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Old 12-06-2010, 05:47 PM   #24
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The link to the big model lobby is interesting. They raise some good points, but are amongst those of us who would be more heavily affected.

As in, where do they go to operate those monster models they've lovingly bought?

As a whole, we're likely to suffer the fate of many tiny specialist interest groups - who cares, even if they don't vote for us at the next election, who cares? Even if aeromodelling had any cohesiveness - the big model lot tend to look down upon mere mortals, the kids buying park flier foamies don't give a hoot about anything bar themselves and maybe having the latest cellphone.

There's a club outside of DC rumoured to have spent club funds on a tarmac runway, because the committee had bought all the models they could, and wanted/needed to buy to buy turbines.

One lobby within the sport tried to get balsawood banned on account of it wasn't a suitable material for competition models to be made from. Oops - sorry, that one actually happened back in the 1930's,

Nowt changes...

Personally, I think I could live with model aircraft having to weigh under 5.5lbs. Oops, sorry, mis-read - 55lbs.

If you want anything heavier, there's plenty of such designs in this country, and they don't need a grand or so of zillion channel radio, huge pricey servos, multiple batteries, back-ups, feedback gadgets AND you get FPV for free
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Old 12-06-2010, 05:50 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by onepoint View Post
Wow nice video! While I'm watching, I kept thinking: 'boy Bin Laden would love seeing this!'. He don't need anything big. Just dive it into a city bus......BOOM! And the screws turn ever tighter on the US population. The government/TSA/Dept. of Security will do it all for him.

Do a search for "movie plot terrorism". There are *much* better ways to kill people than to use a RPV.


For starters, you'd need a fairly sizable payload to do any real damage. Let's say you have 5lbs of explosive. Would you really put it onto a RC airplane or RC car and try to drive it into a bus/car/plane/train?

Or, would you just put it into a suitcase/backpack and put it into a place where people gather?


With a RPV, you *might* hit the intended target and you *might* kill a lot of people. But a backpack left in a mall food court/movie theater/bus would probably kill a lot more people with a lot less risk.



I'm not saying someone *wouldn't* use a RPV as a delivery device. It's just that there are *much* simpler ways to do it. And a smart terrorist would *probably* use the simplest method he could.
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