Wattflyer RC Network: RC Universe :: RCU Magazine :: RCU Forums :: RCU Classifieds :: RCU User Reviews :: RCU YouTube
Home Who's Online Calendar Today's Posts RealTime Post Spy Mark Forums Read
Go Back   WattFlyer RC Electric Flight Forums - Discuss radio control eflight > Electric R/C Airplanes > Beginners
Register Members List Wattflyer Extras Articles Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Social Groups

Beginners New to e-power flying? Get the low down in here from experienced e-power RC pilots!

Thank you for your support (hide ads)
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-11-2011, 06:58 PM   #1
rcers
Community Moderator
 
rcers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Trophy Club TX
Posts: 6,175
View rcers's Gallery57
Thanked 501 Times in 491 Posts
Awards Showcase

WAA-08 Pilot 
iTrader: (4)
Friends: (9)
Default Aileron Trainer - Really?

OK so I have been flying for 33+ years and have noticed a recent trend on the forums. I see everyone talking and asking about "aileron" trainers.

I just chuckle every time I see that. I also learned on a rudder, elevator plane but didn't spent much energy on an "aileron" trainer.

I guess I am just wondering why folks talk about an aileron trainer.

All I really get into with folks I help is a good first plane, second and third. Don't care if they have ailerons or not, nor how you advance from R/E planes to one with ailerons.

When someone asks me about the difference between rudder and ailerons I just tell them - forget it even has ailerons. All you will notice is how much more responsive your turns can be.

Am I the only one that thinks this strange, and that there really is not such thing as an aileron trainer?

Mike
rcers is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2011, 07:06 PM   #2
flydiver
Super Contributor
 
flydiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 2,631
View flydiver's Gallery1
Thanked 384 Times in 371 Posts
Awards Showcase

Outstanding Contributor Award 
iTrader: (1)
Friends: (10)
Default

You probably learned in a club. Many, if not most, folks are learning by themselves. Not the best or easiest way but there it is.
The self-correcting ability of a R/E "trainer" plane with dihedral is a lot more newbie friendly than an aileron flat wing plane that goes where you point it when you don't have a clue about pointing anyway.

I buddy box newbies all the time and a number of different planes. After awhile they can sorta fly something like a slow stick. Put them on a very tractable similar plane with ailerons and they are suddenly completely messed up. I use that plane (Wasp-an aileron Slow Stick clone) as a transition from R/E.
You certainly can learn on it but without help the carnage would be significantly worse.

So I think folks are after a similar easy to fly transition plane to make the jump themselves. I've put a number of transitional folks on the buddy box and Wasp. Their relief that they can fly an aileron plane is significant. It usually takes them 5-10" and a few screw ups but if they are ready they get it quickly. OTOH if they did that with their brand spanking new T-28 or similar plane without a short trial experience, there is a fair chance it would not have been pristine very long.

fly
If you're going to learn to fly them, you have to learn to fix them.
flydiver is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2011, 07:19 PM   #3
Grasshopper
Some Assembly Required
 
Grasshopper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 12,071
View Grasshopper's Gallery48
Thanked 422 Times in 407 Posts
Awards Showcase

AP Contest Winner  WAA-08 Pilot  100mph Speed Demon 
iTrader: (49)
Friends: (52)
Default

I'm with you Mike. I never really understood the whole "when am I ready for ailerons" thing. I don't understand why they don't start beginners with a four channel. I agree that it's just more responsive. You could always set up dual rates and dial the ailerons down to make them less responsive if needed.

Tom
Grasshopper is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2011, 07:37 PM   #4
rcers
Community Moderator
 
rcers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Trophy Club TX
Posts: 6,175
View rcers's Gallery57
Thanked 501 Times in 491 Posts
Awards Showcase

WAA-08 Pilot 
iTrader: (4)
Friends: (9)
Default

Originally Posted by flydiver View Post
You probably learned in a club. Many, if not most, folks are learning by themselves. Not the best or easiest way but there it is.
The self-correcting ability of a R/E "trainer" plane with dihedral is a lot more newbie friendly than an aileron flat wing plane that goes where you point it when you don't have a clue about pointing anyway.

I buddy box newbies all the time and a number of different planes. After awhile they can sorta fly something like a slow stick. Put them on a very tractable similar plane with ailerons and they are suddenly completely messed up. I use that plane (Wasp-an aileron Slow Stick clone) as a transition from R/E.
You certainly can learn on it but without help the carnage would be significantly worse.

So I think folks are after a similar easy to fly transition plane to make the jump themselves. I've put a number of transitional folks on the buddy box and Wasp. Their relief that they can fly an aileron plane is significant. It usually takes them 5-10" and a few screw ups but if they are ready they get it quickly. OTOH if they did that with their brand spanking new T-28 or similar plane without a short trial experience, there is a fair chance it would not have been pristine very long.
I learned to fly by myself - no club around. So your assumption is incorrect. I learned using a 72" glider with elevator and rudder.

You are making my point perfectly. The airplane type (not control surfaces it uses to turn) are what matter. A good first plane needs to be docile and have self correcting ability. But it really does not matter if it uses ailerons or rudder to initiate a turn. Right?

I can setup a the ailerons to be very docile, just like the rudder. But you will have perhaps the added advantage of seeing a roll induced turn not a yaw induced turn.

Mike
rcers is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2011, 08:18 PM   #5
Heli Jim
Grandpa, Golfer, Pilot
 
Heli Jim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,401
Thanked 113 Times in 113 Posts
iTrader: (9)
Friends: (1)
Default

I think the biggest thing that a person will notice is that once you go to ailerons, then you
must use elevator to complete the turn. With many R/E planes, if they have enough dihedral
in the wing, they will turn with just rudder alone.

When I learned to fly, I had ailerons from the get-go. It was big and docil....I think it
was a Goldberg Sr Falcon with a .35 glow engine.

Helicopters don't really fly.......
They're just so ugly, that the earth repels them.
Heli Jim is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2011, 08:23 PM   #6
Saucerguy2
Super Contributor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,893
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (13)
Default

There is a misconception that ailerons and dihedral are never to be combined. Most trainers that have them, also have dihedral as well, and in fact, most planes have dihedral, it's the degree of them that is the case. I personally can't stand tail feather only control, it's far too slow in response for my tastes, and I don't like waging the tail of the plane around in order for the rest of it to catch up to finally committing to that turn. Yet, at the same time, you can correct a mistake with a tail feather control before you officially commit to it's course adjustment.

Also, keep in mind, why would you want to have to relearn how to fly a plane, going from tail feather control, over to ailerons. I think it would be a better transition to set up the plane to operate in 2 channel mode, as in adjust the angle of attack on the motor and/or incidence, so that giving it more throttle will get it to nose up, and less, down, so that the new pilot only needs to focus on the aileron's for turning. Any plane can be adjusted to do that, and the next learning step would be to introduce the elevator, not the ailerons.
Saucerguy2 is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2011, 08:25 PM   #7
Turner
Super Contributor
 
Turner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 1,375
Thanked 130 Times in 128 Posts
iTrader: (1)
Friends: (3)
Default

Look at it this way, Aileron Trainer = Trainer with Ailerons.
Turner is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2011, 09:04 PM   #8
JustGoFly.com
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Rochester, NY 14624
Posts: 139
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Send a message via AIM to JustGoFly.com
Awards Showcase

100mph Speed Demon  125mph Speed Demon 
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (2)
Default

I use "Aileron Trainer" only to mean an aileron plane that flies nicely, and is the one AFTER the 3 channel trainer. You'd be surprised how often someone comes out with a Warbird as their second plane, that is tough to fly and totally inappropriate as a second plane. I had one guy show up with a nice little cub, that had ailerons. I flew it once and told him to put it away for a year and go buy a 3 channel trainer. I kept him on the trainer for most of the year. He asked "When can I move up to an aileron trainer". I told him "when you can fly his low power 3 channel plane inverted". You should have seen all the flips and diving spins he got into trying to get inverted, and he became a much better flyer for it.

Vinnie
JustGoFly.com is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2011, 10:04 PM   #9
JZSlenker
Member
 
JZSlenker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 202
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Send a message via AIM to JZSlenker
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (1)
Default

Did I miss something in learning on an aileron trainer? When I was 15 I went to the local club field (Prop Busters) and asked to speak to an instructor. I asked him what plane I should build to learn to fly. I was recommended the GP Trainer 40. I built it, went to the field and learned to fly from that instructor. All this talk about what is better makes me wonder did I miss something in not starting with a no aileron plane. I think being able to do simple tricks would be an asset for an instructor to keep a students interest. Thoughts?
JZSlenker is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2011, 10:06 PM   #10
rcers
Community Moderator
 
rcers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Trophy Club TX
Posts: 6,175
View rcers's Gallery57
Thanked 501 Times in 491 Posts
Awards Showcase

WAA-08 Pilot 
iTrader: (4)
Friends: (9)
Default

Originally Posted by Heli Jim View Post
I think the biggest thing that a person will notice is that once you go to ailerons, then you
must use elevator to complete the turn. With many R/E planes, if they have enough dihedral
in the wing, they will turn with just rudder alone.
So you are hitting on something and agree you can get a turn with rudder only. However, you will lose altitude, and must use elevator anyway.

rcers is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2011, 10:26 PM   #11
Heli Jim
Grandpa, Golfer, Pilot
 
Heli Jim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,401
Thanked 113 Times in 113 Posts
iTrader: (9)
Friends: (1)
Default

Well, if you are flying a plane with a flat wing, and then use aileron, it will bank, but not
turn. That is why pattern airplanes usually have flat wings. They don't want the turn
induced when they apply aileron.....just pure roll. So you would have to initiate the turn
with aileron and add elevator to complete the turn (and not lose altitude because you
deflected the lift). Just like a real airplane would do.

Helicopters don't really fly.......
They're just so ugly, that the earth repels them.
Heli Jim is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2011, 10:35 PM   #12
rcers
Community Moderator
 
rcers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Trophy Club TX
Posts: 6,175
View rcers's Gallery57
Thanked 501 Times in 491 Posts
Awards Showcase

WAA-08 Pilot 
iTrader: (4)
Friends: (9)
Default

But all airplanes use 3 controls to execute a proper turn. I remember those lessons well in full scale training days. Keeping the ball in the middle.

And yes good pattern ships and aerobatic ships are very good at creating pure results from the controls, roll, pitch and yaw. My 3DHS Slick when you hit the rudder just yaws, ailerons just rolls and elevator just pitch. Helpful when you are doing maneuvers.

And no JZSlenker you didn't miss a thing by learning with ailerons.

Mike
rcers is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2011, 10:57 PM   #13
Heli Jim
Grandpa, Golfer, Pilot
 
Heli Jim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,401
Thanked 113 Times in 113 Posts
iTrader: (9)
Friends: (1)
Default

Mike, you're right but most R/C sport planes and pattern, too, for that matter, don't use
or need rudder for turns. If you are flying some of the larger scale planes, then you
usually find that you have to "kick the ball" to keep the turn correct.

I guess it all boils down to learning on what you have. Both ways are good. If you are
flying a 3 channel, you hook up the rudder control to the aileron function anyway.

Helicopters don't really fly.......
They're just so ugly, that the earth repels them.
Heli Jim is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2011, 11:12 PM   #14
MaxAdventure
AMA 198798
 
MaxAdventure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Mork and Mindy
Posts: 1,110
View MaxAdventure's Gallery2
Thanked 108 Times in 105 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to MaxAdventure
Awards Showcase

3kW  1kW  2kW 
iTrader: (1)
Friends: (7)
Default

Originally Posted by rcers View Post
OK so I have been flying for 33+ years and have noticed a recent trend on the forums. I see everyone talking and asking about "aileron" trainers.

I just chuckle every time I see that. I also learned on a rudder, elevator plane but didn't spent much energy on an "aileron" trainer.

.......
Am I the only one that thinks this strange, and that there really is not such thing as an aileron trainer?

Mike
I take it this is fall out from this thread: http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60205


If so, clearly I'm wrong in my suggestions. Sorry about that. I guess I didn't learn well enough to stay out of things.

There is ALWAYS room for some levity in your brevity!
MaxAdventure is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2011, 11:36 PM   #15
kenchiroalpha
Retired Master Chief USN
 
kenchiroalpha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,837
View kenchiroalpha's Gallery2
Thanked 300 Times in 294 Posts
Awards Showcase

Outstanding Contributor Award 
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (168)
Default

Hi
When i started out over 30 years ago i learned from my dad
Started with F/F aircraft then moved up to 2 channel rudder and throttle and after a while added elevator and then ailerons
I built my trainers back then from plans and scratch
Of more importance imho is the postion of the wing i flew many high wings and was very confident at handeling them before i moved to a mid wing plane and flew many of them before moving to low wing aircraft
Just my 2 cents
Take care
Hank

"When wild the head-wind beat,Thy sovereign Will commanding, Bring them who dare to fly, To a safe landing."
kenchiroalpha is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 12:21 AM   #16
rcers
Community Moderator
 
rcers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Trophy Club TX
Posts: 6,175
View rcers's Gallery57
Thanked 501 Times in 491 Posts
Awards Showcase

WAA-08 Pilot 
iTrader: (4)
Friends: (9)
Default

Originally Posted by MaxAdventure View Post
I take it this is fall out from this thread: http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60205


If so, clearly I'm wrong in my suggestions. Sorry about that. I guess I didn't learn well enough to stay out of things.
Nope, not that thread specifically. I have seen it lately with people asking about training with a plane now having ailerons.

Again - I agree there is a training path. But I don't really equate that to ailerons, rather with airplane types like a high wing, docile, low wing loading to start. Then advance from there with higher wing loading, low wing, less docile. Then on to a higher wing loading and aerobatic with no self correction.

And no need to apologize my opinion is just that, everyone gets theirs too. I am wrong as much as the next guy too, just ask my wife. LOL!

Mike
rcers is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 02:52 AM   #17
solentlife
Super Contributor
 
solentlife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ex UK Brit now in Latvia west coast - Ventspils
Posts: 6,048
View solentlife's Gallery47
Thanked 256 Times in 253 Posts
Club: Founder Member Ventspils RC Club. Ex Waltham Chase and Meon Valley Soaring.
Awards Showcase

Scratchbuilders Award  Scratchbuilders Award  Outstanding Contributor Award  125mph Speed Demon 
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (15)
Default

Originally Posted by Turner View Post
Look at it this way, Aileron Trainer = Trainer with Ailerons.
THAT is the BEST response of all and I totally agree.

I taught many RC'rs in the 80's .... and that's exactly what I did with them. If the trainer they appeared with had no ailerons - I flew it that day as R/E and showed them how to modify it to fit ailerons. Next session or not long after - I flew them with ailerons on the SAME trainer.

I too as the OP am amused at the Aileron Trainer idea ... and also at some replies that keep on that old path of R/E ..... given the range of airframes out there and dilaing down etc. that can be done now ... making a plane more docile etc. - I consider the R/E model is not so necessary anymore.

Lets face it - there are not many models out there except vintage that will turn just on rudder alone ... they all need elevator input - so what's the beef ?

222kph PKJ,EDF Concorde, Mini4,Mig3,T45,PKJ twin,ME109,Edge540,Cessna182,Skymaster Biplane,F15,F16,Badius,Ultimate,SE5,Qbee10,450 Heli,V911,J3 Cub Founder 9x forum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flysky_RC_radio/
- Subscribe my Youtube: "solentlifeuk"
solentlife is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 03:54 AM   #18
flydiver
Super Contributor
 
flydiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 2,631
View flydiver's Gallery1
Thanked 384 Times in 371 Posts
Awards Showcase

Outstanding Contributor Award 
iTrader: (1)
Friends: (10)
Default

Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Lets face it - there are not many models out there except vintage that will turn just on rudder alone ... they all need elevator input - so what's the beef ?
The beef is the folks that are teaching themselves haven't got the foggiest notion of what you are talking about and won't until they are knee deep in foam parts.

If they find a mentor/club/instructor then they are good to go with about anything. I've taught folks that are mostly good to go after a half dozen batteries. I've also taught others that in spite of enormous enthusiasm and persistence couldn't fly worth a damn after 6 months.

There is no absolute and well defined path. But there are some useful ways to approach the problem....once you fully define the problem.

fly
If you're going to learn to fly them, you have to learn to fix them.
flydiver is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2011, 04:01 AM   #19
solentlife
Super Contributor
 
solentlife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ex UK Brit now in Latvia west coast - Ventspils
Posts: 6,048
View solentlife's Gallery47
Thanked 256 Times in 253 Posts
Club: Founder Member Ventspils RC Club. Ex Waltham Chase and Meon Valley Soaring.
Awards Showcase

Scratchbuilders Award  Scratchbuilders Award  Outstanding Contributor Award  125mph Speed Demon 
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (15)
Default

Originally Posted by flydiver View Post
The beef is the folks that are teaching themselves haven't got the foggiest notion of what you are talking about and won't until they are knee deep in foam parts.

If they find a mentor/club/instructor then they are good to go with about anything. I've taught folks that are mostly good to go after a half dozen batteries. I've also taught others that in spite of enormous enthusiasm and persistence couldn't fly worth a damn after 6 months.

There is no absolute and well defined path. But there are some useful ways to approach the problem....once you fully define the problem.
Fair enough ... but in that you define a problem that is inherent in forum life - understanding of what is being said / posted. I agree that average newbie is in a world he has little comprehension of. That is why I find it amusing some of the replies that wax into areas that totally confuse or bemuddle the new rc'r.

It will always be the case that some will go it alone and others will seek out help. Lets hope some of our postings can create some success ...

222kph PKJ,EDF Concorde, Mini4,Mig3,T45,PKJ twin,ME109,Edge540,Cessna182,Skymaster Biplane,F15,F16,Badius,Ultimate,SE5,Qbee10,450 Heli,V911,J3 Cub Founder 9x forum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flysky_RC_radio/
- Subscribe my Youtube: "solentlifeuk"
solentlife is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Reply

  WattFlyer RC Electric Flight Forums - Discuss radio control eflight > Electric R/C Airplanes > Beginners

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wanted Aileron Trainer RTF CHEVELLESS Airplanes - Electric For Sale & WTB 0 02-10-2011 11:53 PM
Aileron design JackM Aerodynamics 22 01-20-2011 05:58 PM
What are your CLUB TRAINER airplanes? Saddlebum General Electric Discussions 8 01-04-2011 10:52 PM
Recommendation for Trainer to TEACH with??? Saddlebum General Electric Discussions 48 12-28-2010 10:32 AM
Dynam SR Trainer guapoman2000 ParkFlyers 1 12-19-2010 12:24 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:25 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2005 WattfFlyer.com
RCU Eflight HQ

Charities we support Select: Yorkie Rescue  ::  Crohn's & Colitis Foundation



Page generated in 0.27772 seconds with 55 queries