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Electric Ducted Fan Jets Discuss electric ducted fan jets here including setup tips, power systems, flying techniques, etc.

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Old 03-05-2011, 06:07 PM   #1
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Default B-47 1:8.7669 Scale , Boeing Stratojet...In The Middle

Welcome to phase II of the 1:8.7669 B-47E IV / WB-47B project.


Project Preamble: Please read and determine for yourself how the following applies to you, the reader:

Any and all persons reading this discussion must come to their own determination of the safety and wisdom of emulating or replicating
any and all aspects of what is described within this discussion.

This includes, but is not limited to your own decision on the safety of and whether you should be involved in this or these activities and
any processes or use of equipment related to recreating what is, or has been discussed here-in by subscribers to WattFlyer, the host of
this discussion.

Neither the author of this topic nor WattFlyer are responsible for proper or improper use of, or correct or incorrectness of any process
activity undertaken by any one or all readers of this construction thread.

*As in all modeling activities, reader beware of your abilities to either properly or improperly apply the principals described here-in. It is
impossible to declare whether this activity is or is not proper for readers of this discussion.

Remember now....we warned you...

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


What We're Building 2 Models = 3 Airframes...

1000th B-47 (B-47E-IV)


B-47E IV Labs Maneuver

WB-47B Weather (Cino Atmospheric "Sampling") Bomber



YB-47E
First flight: Dec. 17, 1947 (prototype XB-47)
Model # 450: ( Built By Boeing, Douglas, Lockheed )
2 - XB-47
1,341 - B-47E
10 - B-47A
255 - RB-47E
397 - B-47B
35 - RB-47H
1 - YB-47C


Classification: Medium Bomber
Span: 116 ft. = 158.7790” @ 1/8.7669
Length: 107.1 ft. = 146.5969” @ 1/8.7669
Height: 27 ft. 11 in. = 38.2119” @ 1/8.7669
Power: Six 7,200 # thrust GEJ47GE25 turbojet
Crew: 3 crew ( original conf. )
Armament: One twin 20 mm turret, 25,000# of bombs YB-47E = 4 Cruise Anti-Radar Miss




This thread is the second of three (3) threads focused on the 1:87669 B-47E IV and WB-47B. To go to the beginning of this project
click here: http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52194


http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B47Lines/FuseCompositeFormersJMaster.jpg


"In The Middle" follows "In The Beginning" to separate the project design phase from construction and assembly. For example above
you see the fuselage components. Blue are CNC milled Dow Styrofoam©, white areas in fuselage drawing are CNC hot wired from Dow
Surfboard Foam© a custom blended Styrofoam extruded polystyrene containing strands of Styrene.


The vertical fin components are composed of built-up and hot wired Dow HighLoad 60 Styrofoam©. Wing composition is Dow
Surfboard Foam©and Dow Styrofoam©.

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...dle1B.Ctif.jpg




http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B47Lines/Middle2B.jpg




http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B47Lines/Rear1B.jpg




http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B47Lines/Rear2B.jpg



Dow Styrofoam©:

http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedL...romPage=GetDoc

Dow Surfboard Foam©: (contains strands of filament right angles to the billet length custom manufactured for two distributors)

http://building.dow.com/na/en/produc.../rigidfoam.htm

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Old 03-05-2011, 11:41 PM   #2
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And awwwwwaayyyyyy we go!

Take care and thanks for posting at WattFlyer!!

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Old 03-06-2011, 10:35 PM   #3
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Default New B-47 Resource...



Back in December 2010, BUNRIN-DO Co., Ltd released its #142 Famous Airplanes of the World: Boeing B-47. I ordered it earlier
today, amazing how these things hid under rocks for months then pop up on a Google search. I suggest you wait until I review it
before spending your $18.50 USD and $20 GMS USPS Global Mail System.



Gotta love what looks like the 1/12 wind tunnel model shown above... :^) Since I am in audit mode, I thought it best to
not pass up on what has historically been an absolutely fabulous documentation resource. Yes, its in Japanese...but its
those purdy pichurs...spessly da drahn's...ya heer?



Odds are, as it always seems to turn out, the value of the BUNRIN-DO Co., Ltd books are the drawings and occassional estranged
photos. Though smaller than you would like, once you scan @1600 / 2400 dpi to pdf they are typically GREAT! Gotta remember the
accurate drawings are skinny and far between on the B-47. I'm betting they took the measured engineering drawing and reop'd it.
I'm back to the audit. Everyone have a good week... When I return I should have a final dims index, unless something else pops up.


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Old 03-13-2011, 04:40 PM   #4
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Friday morning USPS delivered my fresh off the press copy of "Famous Airplanes Of The World #142 Boeing B-47 Stratojet".
This is a "brand spank'n new" publication from Bunrindo Co., Ltd. in Japan. I ordered it and three days later its here!



Can't say the same for the foam samples supposedly sent to me from Burbank, CA., eleven days ago. They are said to inroute and to
be delivered on Monday...with the infamous tag of "by the end of day". There's more news on the two foams...I'll share that after the
good news...

As an example of why you should acquire a copy of this documentation resource see the photo of the rear turret with an overlay
of our previously extracted former shapes.



Before I go further...the book I.D. is ISBN978-4-89319-193-9 If you want a copy of this fabulous documentary summary. Bunrindo Co., Ltd.
is the publisher in Japan. With recent events...I would suggest you approach your favorite documentation book seller to see if they have it
in stock. Barbarrosa, Schiffeler, and Zenith would be a good place to start.


I fear JHL, where I purchased it, is no longer functioning though they are located much further South than the Tsunami plagued
Northeastern Japan. I sent them an email inquiry and will let you know. As you can see by clicking the logo their online server is
functioning fine...though it could very well be in Houston for that matter. I will let you know after I receive a reply. In the mean
time... below is the order summary for the book.

BUNFA142 Famous Airplanes of the World #142: Boeing B-47 Stratojet ISBN978-4-89319-193-9

Merchandise Total: 1,524
Shipping Charge: 1,344
Total: 2,868 Yen.

A friend at Futaba Corp wrote stating Futaba pretty well escaped with little damage compared to what we all have sitnessed in
the North of Japan. Bunrindo Co., Ltd. is located Northwest of Tokyo which had little damage from the earth quake.

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Old 03-13-2011, 07:54 PM   #5
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Default Audit Resources Continue To Grow





Previously you saw the wind tunnel model illustration with it suspended above and below with its tether to prevent rolling over.
Above and below are photos showing the model which appears to be 10% of the 1:1. In the top image you see the mounting
point which is at CG.



Below you see a top down view of the slip stream as it travels across then turns "down" the wing after it passes wing fence/
aka inboard nacelle pylon then turns toward wing tip. Notice distance from pylon/wing fence outboard to where flow turns out
toward the tip.



Now, look at where the vortex generators are located on the wing. They are concentrated out where their placement will have
the greatest effect across ailerons. Remember after Joe Martin's experiences he indicated differential aileron should be used with
an absolute minimum of up.





Below you see the wind tunnel model teathered during a test. Note the rise of the wing from just outside the inboard pylon.
This is identical to the Tu-95 which I illustrated way back in the first third of this thread. We anticipate at least a three to
four inch rise at the tip.



Below we have the 1/10th model sitting on a wind tunnel "table" to film the wing tattle-tales you see above. I don't know if its
just me...but guys doesn't the right wing tank seem to be toe'd "out" just a wee bit? It appears to be toe'd out more than just
a wee bit compared to the two nacelle lines. Don't leave me all alone out here... what do you thunk?



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Old 03-15-2011, 12:35 AM   #6
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Default Surprise~Surprise~Surprise

What are we looking at...above the black line is Dow Surfboard Foam© below is Dow HighLoad 60©. Our wing is composed of
Dow HighLoad 60© from root to wing tip. In this config the wing, outboard of the inboard nacelle, is permitted to compress
resulting in a 3"~4" rise at the wing tip.



George Mairorana is seen "feeding" the Tu-95...placing one of the battery packs in the fuselage.

George Maiorana's Tu-95 is my benchmark. The Tu-95 and the B-47 wing are virtually the same planform. Though George's wing
was hot wired from 1# density white everyday expansion foam...I made the decision I was going to utilize a high density foam
and balsa as my wing skin vs. George's 64th ply skin.

My B-47 design incorporates multiple spars from the integrated fuselage truss out to the inboard nacelle receiver box. George's
wing relies on traditional T & C for lateral strength. The complexity of my flaps and the fact I have TONs of components within
my inboard nacelle box blade insert mandate I be rock solid instead of the flex built into George's wing.

"0" Spar Image Here...

George never activated his inboard wing flex mechanism because the wing flexed perfectly with the outboard mechanism...I was
afraid if he permitted it, it would result in radical oscillation, aka flapping of each wing section. I envisioned an out of control 180
degree out of phase wing flap. Fortunately, George chose to not activate the wing at the fuselage.

Below is the high density Dow Surfboard Foam©, yes it is a Dow product which is sold to a single California foam distributor
I will disclose near the end of this thread portion. The vertical "grain" is what makes this foam denser and therefore stronger
than regular extruded Dow polystyrene...aka Dow Highload 60© foam. Note instead of being long strands of polystyrene it is
a narrow channel of higher density foam with a vertical celluar form. Each row of denser polystyrene is approximately 1/4" thick.

The accumulative strength of multiple layers of vertical oriented styrene yields the strongest polystyrene foam available. A white
horiz line was added to show "layers" of vertical oriented polystyrene.



Above you see the white light reflection from the flat bed scanner used to create image. Surface of Dow HighLoad60©
foam appears virtually smooth. I dropped the sample onto our glass top kitchen table and was surprised to hear it make
a very loud and "solid" sound instead of the typical thud you normally associate with lower density Styrofoam©.

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Old 03-16-2011, 03:01 AM   #7
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looks pretty in depth there Ed Is there a ball park estimate on this plane's maiden? Not meaning to rush you, of course.....................
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Old 03-16-2011, 04:06 AM   #8
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Default Time...Precious Time

"In The Beginning" began 12-11-2009 @ 03:30 AM CST. "In The Beginning" was 522 posts in length. March 5th, ten days ago,
"In The Middle", phase two, began. If everything progresses as it has I would anticipate assembly and flight in fall of 2012.

As an example: George's Tu-95 required four years to complete. George's current C-133 project is I believe two years as it sits
and an other eighteen months are anticipated.

George's Tu-4 AEW was under construction for two years. By the way, the Tu-4 AEW is for sale, sans its hardware. This model
is a USSMA 1st place winner, AMA NATs 1st place winner, and Top Gun 1st place winning model. It can be yours...tomorrow.


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Old 03-24-2011, 05:10 AM   #9
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Boy, this isn't just a common build, this is a full engineering project. This Stratojet should be an award winner.
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Old 03-25-2011, 03:32 PM   #10
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Default Compliment Appreciated

Originally Posted by 50+AirYears View Post
Boy, this isn't just a common build, this is a full engineering project. This Stratojet should
be an award winner.
Thanks,

Its not really that complicated, just requires working through the kinks as it moves forward. Everything is in final audit.
Lots of ittie-bitties that have to be reviewed individually then unified as multiples to form a larger part of the whole.
Everything has to work together.

I suppose this is the least understood aspect of scratch building. Making sure each component is functioning with the
least amount of complexity so when everything is buttoned up it works smoothly.

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Old 04-06-2011, 08:47 PM   #11
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Default 4/06/2011 Dims & 3/03/2012 Dims

I failed to repost the original dims in this new thread:



Below are the adjusted dims rounded up to 1:87669


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Old 04-08-2011, 01:28 PM   #12
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Default Two Rail Sweep...AKA...Lofting ~ Extruding

You will sense we have picked up the pace a bit within WattFlyer as Sam and I continue our audit process.

Two Rail Sweep, Lofting, Extruding is an introduction to your changing skill set, aka personal processes to scratch build.
What?...you say you've never scratch built... Welcome to your new skill set.

http://www.vectric.org/video/aspire3/overview/X10-2%20Rail%20Sweep%20Overview_media/X10-2%20Rail%20Sweep%20Overview.wmv

Yes, change...painful as the prospect of change might be imagined, you'll see greater accuracy, less waste, lower overall
hobby expense while each project is completed faster than a par project built from a kit.



The process requires minimum understanding of what is required to deliver fantastic results. Aspire utilizes images with vector
file extensions to create shapes, aka objects. Above you see a wing. In this case a single airfoil wing...Aspire will permit three
airfoil aka complex wing airfoils per "section" it lofts...extrudes...rail sweeps.

Lofts, extrusions, and rail sweeps are different words which mean the computer will create "x" number of "virtual solid space" in
creation of a shape...in the above case, a wing, horiz stab, vertical fin, rudder... Are you smiling yet? OMG...a fuselage!

The use of three air foils is a matter of having two lines that are the outside shape of the wing and then a third line representing
the foil shape. You use "two rail sweep", a process within Aspire (more later) to apply the curved shape of wing inside the outline
of the wing.

The picture at left shows the (images) vectors drawn (scanned in) as wing's top and bottom shape. Smaller image represents the
composite wing shape viewed from either end, or a location within the wing...in the case of a complex multiple airfoil wing. Picture
at right shows the results of software rendering three (images) vectors to combine them into a 3D wing.

After rereading the above post you see yourself rapidly approaching what is now an "assembly" process, not a "building" stage.


http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B47Lines/FuseCompositeFormersJMaster.jpg

Not to overwhelm...but here comes the short hand version...



Let us say to ourselves...self, lets make the rear turret section (blue tinted area of drawing above) of our B-47E IV. Self thinks
for a moment then opens http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B47Lines/Rear2B.jpg . Well actually self is opening a .tiff, .png file
extension of the .jpg image show above. Self now saves "each" of the two fuselage shapes to individual "vector file formats"...
.dwg, .dwf, etc.


Remember this image? Perhaps at the time you were scratching your head... Are all these itty bities coming together for ya?
At this point Judy would smurk and say...."It Could happen!"...



Below is what we want to make....with the above tools.



Plus the Hot Wired rear fuselage sections...


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Old 04-08-2011, 04:28 PM   #13
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Default Comments and Questions?

We welcome your comments and questions.

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Old 04-10-2011, 02:05 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
Thanks,

Its not really that complicated, just requires working through the kinks as it moves forward. Everything is in final audit.
Lots of ittie-bitties that have to be reviewed individually then unified as multiples to form a larger part of the whole.
Everything has to work together.

I suppose this is the least understood aspect of scratch building. Making sure each component is functioning with the
least amount of complexity so when everything is buttoned up it works smoothly.
Not that complicated Compared to working out the apollo moonflights on a slide rule, probably not, but I for one have some difficulty in following a lot of the content in this thread. You did ask for comments.......
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Old 04-10-2011, 02:48 AM   #15
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Default Confusing Content

Originally Posted by pattern14 View Post
Not that complicated Compared to working out the apollo moonflights on a slide rule, probably
not, but I for one have some difficulty in following a lot of the content in this thread. You did ask for comments.......
Pattern,

Much confusion comes from where one begins reading a thread. There were three reops of the project since it began over in the
first section "In The Beginning" due to the fact this began as a Kero powered project then moved to electric where it actually took
on traction. Perhaps that was confusing... To try to pick up where we are now "In The Middle" is going to be awfully confusing. If
that is the case...start over at "In The Beginning".

What is it that seems to be fuzzy logic?

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Old 04-10-2011, 03:40 AM   #16
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Default to be more precise...

Hi Ed, it's not so much fuzzy logic, as is it is the depth. If you look at at other scratchbuilds on this site, there is light years difference in the amount of research and detail as is compared to this epic build. I don't even pretend to understand the CAD drawings, or a lot of the terminology used. And I am really struggling to understand how you can get the required thrust out of those scale nacelles, although I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you. Another aspect is some of the attention to detail itself. Things like the photo's of the control surface activating mechanisms, and in-flight refueling access. Are you really going to duplicate these to work in miniature, or was it simply part of the research component? Another area I,m unsure about is the actual fabrication.....are you actually cutting and shaping all the components yourself, or having them made to your specs by a specialist/s.? Absolutely none of this is a critisicm of you or your project; I'm simply curious. Believe me, I really want to see this one fly
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Old 04-10-2011, 03:54 AM   #17
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I agree with Pattern this is very in depth design I have read the beginning and the design process is more than I can handle. Nice to know that someone out there can do this to the detail you guys are dong so please keep it coming. Be very interesting to follow when the physical build starts. Not that it is not interesting now.
Myself I have been reading your thread since it was started my lack of technical knowledge would not add to design and build, but I always gleam some info, and appreciate the hard work put into a project of this ambition. So please do carry on this guy will just sit back and watch it unfold.
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Old 04-10-2011, 02:18 PM   #18
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Default Whole...Is Sum Of The Parts

Pattern, Gramps, and all those who have not asked...

Thank you for your interest in our B-47E IV and WB-47B projects. Sam and I have wondered who the two people were who have
viewed this thread over 20,000 times each...

You two are the reason this thread discloses the elements of scale scratch building. This thread is only different than other scale
scratch builds you have seen in one respect. I set out to show how the whole is the sum of the parts, nothing more, nothing less.
Entire project was defined and layed out with graphical concept resources starting page 1 and continuing through page 5 of
"In The Beginning".

Everyone should have noticed by now, images bring your personal building experience into play while learning about any segment
of this project. This is "necessary". There are base line elements of building which go way, way back in the lives of scale modelers.
These baseline elements appear below.

You do not have to be an experienced modeler; this is to say, an experienced scale modeler of kits or scratch built to achieve that
which is in "your mind's eye".

Is the same as...Is the same as...

Is the same as... Is the same as...

Is the same as...Is the same as...

Is the same as...

Is the same as...

Is the same as...

Is the same as...triangles.

Remember its all about triangles and the fact all building elements are comprised of multiple triangles.


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Old 04-10-2011, 03:13 PM   #19
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Default A Flying Model's Power Is Equal To...

Thrust is the ability to effect state of mass. The closer to a 1:1 thrust to weight ratio, the more mass can be effected. At a
point, the mass, if properly shaped, will move. Some would say that is hot air. I respectfully disagree, it need only be ambient
temperature.

Flight is probable when 1.625 (X) thrust = AUW of model.

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Old 04-10-2011, 08:59 PM   #20
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Guys, a re-read of posts #500 of "In The Beginning" and #12 of "In The Middle" might provide better understanding where
we are on your other question.

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Old 04-11-2011, 03:29 AM   #21
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Default getting my head around it...

Thanks for all that Ed All my previous exposure to scale modelling is more akin to the artists style of view, as opposed to the mathamatical approach you are using. Any new knowledge is of use, and anything learned is never without value. Another point is that it is unlikely I'll come across any one locally doing something like this; I live in Tasmania, and the chance that a sheep farmer is building something similar in his wool shed is pretty remote. keep up the good work, and the very best of luck
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:49 AM   #22
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Default Bahhhhhhhhhh Bahhhhhhhhh

Originally Posted by pattern14 View Post
Thanks for all that Ed All my previous exposure to scale modelling is more akin to the artists style
of view, as opposed to the mathamatical approach you are using. Any new knowledge is of use, and anything learned is never
without value. Another point is that it is unlikely I'll come across any one locally doing something like this; I live in Tasmania,
and the chance that a sheep farmer is building something similar in his wool shed is pretty remote. keep up
the good work, and the very best of luck
Black sheep I may be... :^) Everyone I have ever known has gone through this same process whether it be with a calculator,
drafting board, French curve, multiple triangles, and a straight edge.

I am still using a calculator, virtual paper, and pencil. The only difference is its being graphically shared in this forum. Nothing
else is different. No one strikes pen or pencil to paper intending to create a kinda sorta scale model. Well, there are those
who do profile models... Depending on how you look at it...literally...its scale.



I believe you may not have understood that the drawing below was created in 1954 and drawn by hand...



The cross sections were extracted and edited by hand then placed along the multiple datum lines nose to tail just as they
always have been by anyone doing a scratch build project.

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Old 04-19-2011, 01:35 AM   #23
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I'm here to tell you there are some nasty viruses running rampant over the last seven days. My note book was hit with the
MS Removal Tool 2.20 virus. I didn't execute any pop-ups, cleaned out my registry, and shut it down.

Best Buy's Geek Squad is cleaning it up, installing new anti-virus, adding two gig of ram and a 12 month maintenance contract
for three computers. We'll know Friday it is where I hope it is.

Best Buy said this virus has been rampant for the last two weeks. I was using AVG and had been exceptionally pleased with its
performance. I told them my Toshiba had issues with McAfee as well as Norton overhead. They said this Kaspersky AV Box is
the killer for anti-virus.

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Old 04-19-2011, 02:25 AM   #24
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Hope it didn't hit any of your Strato files Ed... You got all the data backed up someplace?

Take care and thanks for posting at WattFlyer!!

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Old 04-19-2011, 11:51 AM   #25
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Default Locked Up

Originally Posted by Don Sims View Post
Hope it didn't hit any of your Strato files Ed... You got all the data backed up someplace?
I have this web site for latest cross section edits and CD copies. Seriously, I saved important cross sections to my web server.

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