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Electric Ducted Fan Jets Discuss electric ducted fan jets here including setup tips, power systems, flying techniques, etc.

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Old 03-24-2012, 07:45 PM   #176
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Default Project Preable Reminder At The Middle's End... :^0

Project Preamble: Please read and determine for yourself how the following applies to you, the reader:

Any and all persons reading this discussion must come to their own determination of the safety and wisdom
of emulating or replicating
any and all aspects of what is described within this discussion.

This includes, but is not limited to your own decision on the safety of and whether you should be involved
in this or these activities and
any processes or use of equipment related to recreating what is, or has been
discussed here-in by subscribers to WattFlyer, the host of
this discussion.

Neither the author of this topic nor WattFlyer are responsible for proper or improper use of, or correct or
incorrectness of any process activity undertaken by any one or all readers of this construction thread.

*As in all modeling activities, reader beware of your abilities to either properly or improperly apply the
principals described here-in. It is
impossible to declare whether this activity and processes are or are
not proper for readers of this discussion.



_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


1000th B-47 (B-47E-IV) Airframe 1


B-47E IV Labs (Low Altitude Bombing System) Maneuver

WB-47B Weather (Cino Atmospheric "Sampling") Bomber Airframe 2


DB-47E 51-2350 (With Tongue Stuck Out... ) Airframe 1.
First flight: Dec. 17, 1947 (prototype XB-47)
Model # 450: ( Built By Boeing, Douglas, Lockheed )
2 - XB-47
1,341 - B-47E
10 - B-47A
255 - RB-47E
397 - B-47B
35 - RB-47H
1 - YB-47C


Classification: Medium Bomber
Span: 116 ft. = 158.7790” @ 1/8.7669
Length: 107.1 ft. = 146.5969” @ 1/8.7669
Height: 27 ft. 11 in. = 38.2119” @ 1/8.7669
Power: Six 7,200 # thrust GEJ47GE25 turbojet = Two XPS Dynamax Pro-2 Outrunners @ 6800 ma ea.
Crew: 3 crew ( original conf. )
Armament: One twin 20 mm turret, 25,000# of bombs YDB-47E ~ DB-47E = 4 Cruise Anti-Radar Missile



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Old 03-24-2012, 08:47 PM   #177
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Default

Sam and I rapidly approach the end of the B-47 design phase.

It appears everyone's questions have been answered either in images or text so we're moving on. From
here on you will see results of implementing each design element. When we post it will be with either
video or stills. Design drawings have already been posted unless there has been an alteration in their
original design. A good example of this is the flaps which I will post the new flap root this evening.

Design resources are available on a thumb drive available at end of our "In The Air" segment...


Remember...

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Old 03-25-2012, 02:49 AM   #178
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Default D' Revised Flap Flipper...Not Just Foaming @ D'mouth...


Parting Point Airfoil @ Angle.

Parting Point Airfoil with flap.


Root Airfoil.


Flap Airfoil


Root airfoil with flap.

Center section angles...from Master A



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Old 03-27-2012, 01:40 PM   #179
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Default Winging It Amidst D' Flipp'n Flappers.

As Sam creates our flap bay components and four "removable" flap bays for our two B-47s, it became
apparent I need to bring components previously presented individually and present support to see how
they work together as a wing system. With this size model it is wise to build in conveniences whenever
possible.

Removeable flap bays relieve us from having to lay on our back to service elements of the flap bay
mechanisms except to take either an inboard or outboard bay out of the wing. Inboard flaps are driven
by high spline count Sullivan Nyrod driven from just ahead of the wing at the fuselage centerline.

Two Futaba S3170 serial bus servos move inboard pairs of flaps with metal re-enforced 2258 Futaba
tiller arms
providing necessary travel length.
*
Futaba S3170 flap servo's cycle "requires" its 2258 tiller arm with its ball-link ball to move as close to a
"straight travel path" as possible to prevent not only servo binding, but to permit servo to swing through
its art moving the flap surfaces from full up to full down.
*

This is to say...the servo arm attachment screw must move "vertically during flap deployment if it is
to maintain alignment of its ball link attached control rod with holes in fuselage/wing through which the
Nyrod pushes and pulls attachment point on 2258 tiller arms and each flap.

Note the red colored "tube" epoxied to Futaba S3170 servo along its lower side with single layer of C/F
vail pressed through epoxy along the full width of the 60 grit sanded servo case. A hex head bolt longer
than the servo case is passed through Nyrod sheath permitting servo to be removed from its mounting
plate. Care should be made to be sure the "tube" is NOT made of polyethylene if you affix it with CA!

I will provide video of the servo's movement through the arc after it is mounted.


Below are two Futaba S9206 servos used by George Maiorana in his Tu-4 and Tu-4AEW. Note the tube
along lower edge of left servo and the metal arms with ball links. Our flap travel mandates a longer arm
moment. Until I observe our Futaba 2258 tiller arm warping I do not foresee needing the aluminum arm.




Unlike the first two of my four discussion threads documenting this design~construction project, as we
assemble each section of our B-47's we are going to shoot video showing exactly why a design element
was incorporated. Project documentation will be available after B-47's are in the air.

I spoke to George this morning and he offered three images of his Tu-4 flap servo's motion during Tu-4's
flap travel so I could more clearly show flap servo tilting to permit nyrod to travel a straight path to the
ball link attached to the control surfaces.

Our B-47s utilize a pair of servos, one for each pair of flaps in each wing. Both servos sit in fuselage
ahead of the wing.

* Images courtesy of George Maiorana, with permission of Hobbico and Futaba Corp.

Remember...



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Old 03-29-2012, 06:52 PM   #180
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Default Its No X-Wing Fighter....But :)

The Boeing B-47 experienced severe wing flex. This, to such an excess, it came close to giving Boeing pause to reconsider its
thin wing, to say nothing for the nearly 37 degree sweep.



Below is a 1/10th scale wind tunnel model used to resolve wing oscillation, wing flex, final approach yaw, and weapons release
to name but a few challenges to Boeing's known reality back-in-the-day. Model is teathered on a ball and socket mast mount
in the center of the windstream. Model is literally flown within the tunnel experiencing all the cause and effect consequences.




Below you see each end of the wing flex cycle.



Below, the flex progression is illustrated from initial roll through to ROG...yes the wing flex will occur during our takeoff roll and
landing... Note the landing gear compression and the swag of the wing upon touchdown.



To see why we know this click this.... http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/FliteM...d%20Flight.wmv

Be patient as this is a large video file. Watch the first 55 seconds of the takeoff to view the wing tip rise of 3+ inches.

Remember...



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Old 04-03-2012, 07:38 PM   #181
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Default Sam's Flap Flipp'n Overview



Click to acquire the full size... http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B47Lines/WingOverView.pdf

Remember...



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Old 04-09-2012, 08:39 PM   #182
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Default GAM-67.....Guided Air To Ground Missile...The First Cruise Missile



Starboard Wing GAM-67







Note: Starboard (right) Wing GAM-67 Have White Wings, Port (left) Wing GAM-67 With International Orange Wings...



Remember...



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Old 04-13-2012, 01:57 PM   #183
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Default Well Hung GAMs



Note: GAM-67 wing bottoms in this image of 51-2350 are International Orange. Wing tops of starboard GAM-67 are white.



GAM-67 Pylon Incidences:



Remember...



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Old 04-13-2012, 06:47 PM   #184
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Default Preparing The D'GAM Differential Dims

Inboard Engine Pylon & Wing Tank Pylon Incidence Differentials.

5'9.39" is the distance from the backbone (fuselage top) and the center waterline/datum defined by Boeing.



Below are the extended datum lines with color to enable you to see how the lines overlap and extend fore to aft.
I will leave the inquiry for sake of redrawing... ;^)





Remember...



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Old 04-14-2012, 03:14 AM   #185
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Default Its All About D'dims......GAMit ! !

By now you should have figured it out on your own...though I didn't think I did that good a job sneaking it in
as I worked along... The idea is to create two completely different B-47's with completely different mission
plans in a single airframe. This is a quisi-three model build, with another three fuselage sections for spares.

Its been a straight forward scratch project replicating the 1000th Boeing B-47 (B-47E – 105 BW, 52-609)
Now the 105 BW's altered to be B-47B-II-50-BW, 52-350 carrying four Radiodplane ~ Northrop GAM-67.

Aside from the obvious provision for swapping portions of the fuselage to replace the huge 1000th graphics,
SAC Blue Star Chevron...





This includes the aircraft number on the vertical fin as well as the fin flash around the fin top...



Graphics resource for 52-609 and 51-2115 is Warbird's 1:72 Boeing B 47 Stratojet decal set 72007.
DB-47E 51-2350 has no decal set as a resource. There are left, right, top and bottom profiles of 609 and 2115 in the
sealed envelope... ;^)


Remember...



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Old 04-14-2012, 04:31 AM   #186
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Talking Not Just A Simple Cameleon

There are actually a "few" cameleon items...


While in a perfect world there would be only one (1) swap part, in reality I expect to use three for the
1000th configuration and one for the U.S. Air Force.

Yes, I edited the U. off the above image to speed things along. After a pair of fuselage frontends are
in my hands, I will decide which process works best for recessing swap part cavities.

This is not as severe an issue as it might first appear. The fuselage is balsa laminated to complete the
internal diamond T & C sandwich. Template drawing is placed on fuselage surface then balsa skin is cut
before fuselage is fiber glassed... :^)

Remember...



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Old 04-16-2012, 03:21 AM   #187
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Default How They Are Hung...

Actually they were strapped to shackle release bars...Yes, strapped...



I kid you not...

Below, GAM-67 is shown awaiting attachment to a B-50 pylon. The GAM-67 was originally developed as
a target drone known then as the RP-54D Crossbow designed and manufactured by The Radioplane Co.





Note: Absence of a fillet between GAM-67 and front edge of the pylon bottom...compared to photo above.



Remember...



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Old 04-17-2012, 02:31 PM   #188
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Default GAM-67 1:1 Mission Plan





Note: Parent aircraft is not defined beyond "B-47" with no deliniation of YDB-47E or DB-47E.

Remember...



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Old 04-17-2012, 02:40 PM   #189
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Default GAM-67 1:1 Mission Plan....Translated

Thank heavens for the last sentence in the 1:1 mission plan description! It goes a long way toward both
defining and reducing complexity of the GAM-67 flight maneuver.



First of all you have judges along the "0" line at presentation center...aka center of all maneuvers. Into
this the B-47 enters into the wind at approximately 100' of altitude, out 150' parallel to the "0" line .



At mid-point of a straight and level pass into the wind, maneuver is initiated with announcement,
" GAM-67 Anti-Radiation Maneuver Begins....Now!".



Above is what under "normal circumstance" would be a decending 360 degree circle. It is flown by an
aircraft at constant decending rate in a circumforal circle dividing the altitude into thirds, started at
the midpoint of a straight and level pass at highest altitude concluding at maneuver midpoint, as B-47
continues across in front of judges to exit, opposite that of entry.



The last sentence above the illustration in the offical description of the GAM-67's release permits me to
"salvo" (release all four GAM-67's at the same time). Flight control is a programmed function onboard all
GAM-67. Each GAM utilizes a single programmable servo permitting GAMS to fly (unpowered) performing
"individual" 360 degree decending circles...

Remote release initiates servo program to steadily move at a slow speed pulling elevator and rudder to a
yet to be determined angle for proper rate of descent to perform 4 X 360 degree decending circles.



This renders each GAM-67 a glider...subject to the whems of the wind. To provide the greatest degree
of control in maintaining my flight plan declared path to a (prescribed) point (target) the flight plan has
each GAM-67 flying in pairs, 180 degrees out in flight path.



Right wing GAMs initiate a slow decent along flight path to the right, left wing GAMs to the left while
B-47 continues straight across presentation box at constant altitude and speed. Servo programming
permits each servo to swing the two control surfaces to a fixed point at which it stops.

Each GAM-67 performs a tightening circumferal 360 degree decending at a constant rate effected by
the wind if present. Under ideal circumstance all four GAM-67 land within seconds of each other at a
point close to the center line of the B-47's flight through the presentation box.



The "zero line" (virtual) running left to right from horizon to horizon in front of the judges is defined as
a do-not-cross line of demarcation during competitive flying events. It defines the virtual line across
which only "accidental" crossing due to uncontrolable elements encountered during a flight round...
(cross wind originating from any angle) is permitted without downgrade to flight round score.

Remember...



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Old 04-17-2012, 05:55 PM   #190
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Default GAM-67 Launch

Hi Ed!

Wow! I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing tried to hire you to do some advanced retrograde designs for the old B-47 ... four GAM-67s dropped from your B-47 ought to command some sort of award from my old employer!!! I sure hope you plan to notify the 'media' when your 'demo flight' takes place!!

I thought I read someplace that only 14 GAM-67s were produced before the program was cancelled (in 1957), and none were ever deployed to active B-47 squadrons, so it will be an amazing sight if all your Crossbows behave according to your flight plan.

Good luck!

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Old 04-17-2012, 06:14 PM   #191
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Default GAM-67 Dodging

Dave,

Releasing a single GAM-67 will tell tale what four of them will do. I anticipate a retention to pylon
issue due to turbulence. Each GAM-67 has to mount at a slight nose down attitude to provide an
aerodynamic load to preclude oscillation. I assume this as the clue was observed in the wing tank's
incidence.

I want to make a simple clasp to be embedded in each GAM-67. A micro servo operated clasp. If I
were to follow the B-50 pylon set-up I only need to plug the cable into the top of the GAM.



As servo moves a bar rotates pulling clasp from retention bar and GAM is pushed free of the B-47. It would
be good to program a single servo to drive release from pylon and movement of GAM rudder tab and elevator
over the length of its travel.

I am more concerned for the cantilever of our flaps than whether these will release correctly.

Remember...


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Old 04-17-2012, 07:02 PM   #192
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Default GAM-67 DIMS & Multiple Views


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Old 04-18-2012, 05:14 PM   #193
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Default Engine Nose Cones

Hi Ed!

I was wondering if you plan to incorporate the engine accessory 'nose cones' in your model, and if so, will they be 'permanently' attached, or removable for flight?

Photos of these installations on the aircraft seem to show 3 (??) supports from the inside of the inlet duct to the accessory/nose-cone structure. I've explored a couple of options on my model, but haven't decided what to do.

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Old 04-18-2012, 06:20 PM   #194
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Default Its All About Breathing....A Necessity To Fly

Dave,

In a word.... I have to say a conditional "yes"....ah but what did I say yes to?


This has more to do with what my design will permit me to do... ;^) This is because I am bifurcated
and using both inlets to feed each edf. The effect of placing the velocity cones within the openings
at 100% their original to scale size will determine if I leave them in place while flying. We will know
what the thrust differential is shortly.

I suspect I will see no ill effect due to the fan sweep area is going to permit me to use them either
at 100% of diameter or one very close to 100%.



I have a cowling parting line permitting me to breakdown my cowling in scale locations. The entire
front inlet is removable as a single piece, as it is on the full size B-47.



The cones will mount to tabs with screws from the rear, the cowl front is going to be held onto the
inboard nacelles by hex head screws turned into threaded brass seats.



As for standoffs being either three or four in number I believe it depends on whether your model is a B. With
the E came new engines, and most B's eventually received the new engines before being withdrawn or rolled
over into E's.



What is the difference between the two inboard nacelles above?

Remember...



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Old 04-18-2012, 10:56 PM   #195
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Default I wondered as well.....

Glad you explained that Ed; I too was wondering about the amount of induction with those nose cones. Wondering how it will sound as well
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:27 PM   #196
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Default Exhaust @ 87% OF FSA = Max Thrust

Originally Posted by pattern14 View Post
Glad you explained that Ed; I too was wondering about the amount of
induction with those nose cones. Wondering how it will sound as well
For AMA, Scale Masters, or TG a competitor is permitted to remove the shock wave cones without a
down grade. In FAI F4C you swim in an arena of strict adherence to replication of 1:1 without grace.

A lot has been learned and put into place for the next step to begin. I hope you have enjoyed the trek
to this point. As I said recently, we will be taking more rapid steps from this point forward, hang on...

There is no practical method, within reason, to calculate shock wave cone consequence on thrust and
throttle ramp-up speed. As for sound, The XPS Pro EDF is going to sound like the "Real Thing" I grew up
knowing a multi-engine jet sounded like. A clear whistle~whine and sine wave during ramp-up of rpm.

Here is what an XPS Pro EDF twin sounds like:
The current version of the XPS Pro is stronger in both thrust and authentic sound than is in this early
twin development.

YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


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Old 04-20-2012, 06:35 PM   #197
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Default GAM-67...A Closer Look



Note: the black fillet surround between the pylon and top surface of GAM-67. In this close-up there
are two parachute images showing at least two launch sessions of GAM-67# 3.

The GAM-67 pylon replaced the wing tank pylon station. The leading edge angle for this pylon is the
same as that of the inboard engine pylon in the foreground.

The retention strap seen in other photos does not appear in this "in flight" image. Pylon attachment
location and strap location are apparently the same because a 13538 Yellow stripe is used to show
its position.

I can only speculate the black item on the top front is a camera filming release from the pylon.



Remember...



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Old 04-22-2012, 03:45 PM   #198
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Default I need your help...

I have been focused on the mechanical aspects of E replication including wing tanks. Though I designed
wings capable of carrying wing tanks, I am not necessarily defaulting to that B-47 config.

Why??

The disclosed aka photographic configuration disclosed in submitting an entry to a contest is a mental
set-point~picture creating an anticipation for those who view a model "before it enters competition"...
Effect of this is not so much what it is, but what a potential judge perceives the entry to be.

Judges are not permitted to view an entry prior to that entry's static judging at a contest. However
typically judges read publications and or attend the Toledo Show where high levels of probability exist
for one of several configs to be prefered over others by a builder. ;^) Keep 'em guessing whats' what.

One of the things you should learn from this project is:

Competitive flying scale modeling is a game won by those playing to the "letter of the rules". Rules are
adopted from competitor proposals during rules consideration cycles. AMA aka Scale Master's base line
general and explicit scale class rules are the same at their root by defaulting to AMA's comp guidelines.
SM's difference is witnessing a sharpened skillset with focus on performance of mechanical options in a
flight maneuver during multiple flight rounds.

Competitors submit rules change proposals to the AMA Scale Contest Board. Each AMA District V.P.
"appoints" a Scale Contest Board Representative who is supposed to represent newbee and old hand
competitors from each district in the decision making process overseeing rules change proposals.

Of our two B-47 airframes, mine will replicate "multiple registration and rev." airframes during B-47
evolution.
This presents a decision making process for me that I have here-to-fore felt comfortable
with. As I am returned to cosmetics and presentation values...I find my self less-than-armed-well,
for what I intend.

I need your help to overcome (1) a contradiction and (2) a photographic deficit.

(1) I found a contradiction stating the DB-47E sans the "Y" is the correct name instead of YDB-47E for
the GAM-67 host. While there is a legit YDB-47E from a prototype standpoint because I have an official
YDB-47E flight training manual. However after reading it again, the contradiction claim is "not" found in
the publication, nor its bibliography.





If you have a manual, book, pamplet, etc. stating 51-2328 or 51-2350 are DB-47E instead of YDB-47E
supported by bibliographic reference...I sure could use a scan of the info.



(2) The second issue is something I did not think would be an issue at all since Boeing made such a big
deal and public fanfare when the 1000th Wichita Boeing B-47E was rolled out. Below are thumbnails of
the images I have.



On right is small image of WarBird 1:72nd Decal set #72007's 52-609 profile. There are decals and
profiles in it for both my 1000th Wichita B-47E and Sam's 51-2115 WB-47B, two of our three B-47's.

With as much fanfare as witnessed in the above photo taken when the 1000th arrived in Salina, KS
I would think there would be many more photos. I am approaching the Salina, KS news paper asking
if they have images in their archive.

It would be nice to find out Boeing has a collection of "event" photos when the 1000th rolled out of
the Wichita plant. Will try to contact Michael Lombardi this week...

Do you have additional images of the 1000th B-47E manufactured in Boeing's Wichita, KS plant?

Remember...



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Old 04-23-2012, 03:29 AM   #199
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Default From Salina To Bellevue In One Afternoon...Whew!

After I contacted the Salina Newspaper and discussed this with the Asst. Editor Sharon Montague,
she directed me to the Salina Airport Authority who has an amazing number of employees for an
airport at a 48k population city....7 people promoting the former Smokey Hill AFB field now Salina's
airport. She said they are going to open an aviation museum....music to me soul.

Ms. Montague said Ms. Alisa McCoy, PR Mgr. was the go to for the next step. I thought this would
be a slam dunk considering the hoopla when "The City Of Salina" arrived at Smokey Hill AFB. This is
rapidly loosing traction after I telephoned and left a voice mail, followed by three more calls during
which I spoke to Melissa's assistant...always forwarded to Malissa's voice mail.

Not to end today on a sour note, I called Bellevue, WA to speak to my benefactor Mike Lombardi or
Tom Lubbersmeyer...partners in crime at Boeing's Historical Archives...aka where they hide the gold!
Tom graced me with more conversation than I expected since he had just returned from lunch. He
didn't even rush me off... These guys are like Jessica Rabbit, they are drawn to the dark side by
people like me how tug on their resources.... d:P.

I was told that the Museum Of Flight in Seattle was going to take over the archives functions and
all of what is in Bellevue is going to go across the water to Boeing Field. When I asked Tom about
this he said maybe some day a looooooooonnnnnnnnnngggggggg time from now. I was relieved as I
envision it taking a couple of years to get eveything moved and indexed in new storage before the
resource pool would be available again.

Told Tom what I needed and why I felt he would have B&W prints of the Wichita rollout of 52-609
with all the hoopla with it dressed out as "The City of Salina". 52-609 was used as a fund raiser for
the fifties fight against Polio. The day it was rolled out at the Wichita plant there were hundreds of
people gathered around it. It had contribution pledge placards all over...

Below is a close-up of the smaller image above of the forward fuselage with dignataries celebrating
the fight against Polio.



Remember...



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Old 04-24-2012, 04:46 AM   #200
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Default 52-609 Productivity At A New All Time Low... d:)

Took 5 hours to round up this image. HELP, do you have more of 609?



Remember...When The Polio Shot Was "The" Grade School Excitement??



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