What's with the Lipo scare tactics?

[Wrongway-Feldman]

I fully admit that when it come's to Lipo technology I'm a complete newby.
But as a IT tech for many many years I am very familiar with the battery technology that led up to it as they were all used over the years in laptops.
The common thread when first learning about and using Lipo batteries seems to be handle with kid gloves. These are all time bombs waiting to go off. This type of information is usually followed by a link to the famous youtube videos of lipo's going up in flames and exploding.
Lipo batteries, it seems, are hand grenades we harness to power our planes.

But are they really?
Lipo technology is relatively as safe as any other battery technology. the biggest difference with batteries of the past and Lipo's is the lipo's have a greater potential energy with a faster discharge.
All batteries have the potential of catastrophic failure. Remember laptops being recalled due to batteries catching fire? Hell, I've had a car battery explode while driving once. Keep in mind that a car battery has much greater potential energy than any Lipo. Yet we happily lug it out to the field and use it to charge the batteries for our planes.
If lipo technology was that inherently dangerous it would not be in millions of Iphone 4's around the world.
I agree that common sense should be stressed when using these batteries but that goes for all potentially harmful products. If gasoline was introduced as a new product in todays age it would probably never get approved for consumer use due to the extreme dangers in handling it. Yet we all use it everyday.
I've spoken with several new flyers recently that get nervous everytime they charge their lipo's. They fully expect them to catch fire and blow up everytime they plug in their charger. You know it isn't going to happen. I know it isn't going to happen. But from all the horror stories they have heard they are convinced that they are handling live grenades.
Add to that the thousand of opinions on how to properly handle and charge Lipo batteries, and people are discouraged from even using them.

Here's what I've gleamed so far;
Don't puncture the cells ( common sense )
Use a good charger ( even those have very unclear instructions for new users )
Don't drain the cells too low. ( not easy to figure out for a newby how to measure,
work out what flight times are and then measure
voltages and then measure how many amps go
back in to the battery, etc,etc)
Don't over extend the battery in a given power setup ( prop, motor combo. Amps
draw, discharge rate, etc )

Many of you who have done this for a while think of this stuff as second nature. But try to remember what it was like when you knew nothing at all. There is terrific information out there but unfortunately a lot of it assumes you already have the basic understanding in place to understand the info as presented. .
What we need is a Lipo's for dummy guide with graduated info. Start at nothing, finish with knowledge. there are a great many terrific threads on this and other boards that try to do that. Unfortunately many do not have a consensus on the info given.
Very confusing to new flyers.

PS: I really should have my coffee in the morning so I don't rant on like this.

[flydiver]

You are an IT tech....right?
You know about RTFM....right?
Men > don't RTFM. And I freely admit that the manuals for starter/trainer planes like the Cub are pathetic, especially when it comes to technicalities like you are referencing. They wouldn't probably get it anyway since it's all a foreign language to start. We really see that in the nitro guys that come over. They can fly well but this electric stuff floors them. It did me for at least 6 months of continuous reading and I'm at least 2 standard deviations off the norm in studying things.

We see exactly the same questions repeated over and over. Often you can find 3 of the same questions on the same page of the Group. Some guys make a real effort, some make almost no effort at all.

Catch-22: Flying is easy. The electrics are hard.

Newbies don't plan to crash or screw up their batteries, but they will - guaranteed. If they knew ahead of time how much they would have to learn I think the drop-out rate would be huge. Most mistakes in this sport seem, like most, to be learned the hard way. The scare tactics are to hopefully slow down the terrible accidents a bit. Of course this is countered with market pressure and peer pressure to GO LIPO and FEEL THE POWER! That side always wins.

[Wrongway-Feldman]

There is another reason for people asking the same question over and over again.
Here is a fictional thread, tell if it sounds familiar.

Newbie-- what is a good charger? Which one should I buy?
reply 1-- I use Brand X, been using it for 8 years no problem.
reply 2-- I use brand Y, its awsome!
reply 3-- you don't need one of those, get a cheap one and and use a blinky.
reply 4-- you don't need a blinky. I never balanced my thunder pro and they're fine.
reply 5-- always balance charge every time you charge.
reply 6--Only balance every 10th cycle and you should be good.
reply 7-- I don't use X or Y but i hear they are terrible.
reply 8-- welcome to the board!!

and so on and so on.
there are hundreds of threads like these. lots of people willing to honestly help but in the process overwhelming the newbie.
There are simply too many opinions for an answer so people keep asking questions.

I too read and read till my eyes hurt to figure stuff out on my own. But model electrics seems to have very little manufacturer supplied information. and when there is it is aimed at the knowledgeable hobbyist.
My first charger was a recommended Skycharger B6AC. It took me forever to figure out how to do a simple charge. It can't be done. And don't bother asking for what settings to use on a charger because everybody has a different idea of how to use the damn thing.

That's just one example. Another would be recommending such and such trainer plane over another. I've done it, we all have. but just because it works for us doesn't mean it will work for some-one else. Recently the bandwagon seems to be the Champ as a good first plane. Hell, even i bought one because of the reviews. Personally I wouldn't recommend it as a first plane anymore cause I find it too fragile, small, and light for a trainer. The vertical stab caught on my sleeve as I handled it to replace a battery ripped clean off. Way to fragile.
But other swear by it.
Too much info, too many opinions. too much confusion for newbies.
Here's my tip for newbies.
Buy a highwing trainer that has locally available spares.
Buy a few spare batteries of exactly the same kind that comes with the plane.
Use the supplied charger.
Fly the hell out of the plane till you can do it blindfolded.
Then do it all over again with the next harder to fly plane.
Keep doing that till you are ready to really start experimenting with upgrades to power and props.

[FlyWheel]

I've asked a number of times for a "LiPO forDummies", but all I get are warning threads as well.

The most dangerous part of Lithium ownership it seems is charging which, as many have pointed out, is further aggravated by badly written/translated manuals. So maybe a comprehensive "how to properly charge LiPO's" thread would be a good start. Written by someone with a good grasp on both the charger and the language of course.

Since the Imax B6 seems to be the most commonly "cloned" charger, and they and their clones are the most often asked about and therefor probably the most commonly bought (especially by newbies!), I suggest starting with them.

Posted via Mobile Device

[NJSwede]

So to reduce it to a simple question: My ParkZone T28D came with a simple 2S-3S charger. It is auto balancing and has a dial where I can set the charging current from 0-2A. When I charge batteries, I set the dial to exactly match the capacity rating, so if the battery pack is rated 2200mAh, I turn the dial to 2A and so on. Then I put the whole thing in a 5 gallon clay flower pot and let it charge in my boiler room. I have to admit I don't spend the entire hour staring at it charging.

Safe enough? Any reason I should replace the simple ParkZone charger with something fancier? In terms of ease of operation, it doesn't get much simpler...

[Wrongway-Feldman]

Originally Posted by NJSwede

So to reduce it to a simple question: My ParkZone T28D came with a simple 2S-3S charger. It is auto balancing and has a dial where I can set the charging current from 0-2A. When I charge batteries, I set the dial to exactly match the capacity rating, so if the battery pack is rated 2200mAh, I turn the dial to 2A and so on. Then I put the whole thing in a 5 gallon clay flower pot and let it charge in my boiler room. I have to admit I don't spend the entire hour staring at it charging.

Safe enough? Any reason I should replace the simple ParkZone charger with something fancier? In terms of ease of operation, it doesn't get much simpler...

and that's the kind of question that gets many an answer. Some will chime in that they only charge at .8C. Some will say to never charge in your house.
I could tell you that charging at 1c is perfect and placing in a fire proof container works just fine.
I have several RTF's that came with batteries and chargers. for the most part I use the charger that came with the plane to charge the battery that came with the plane. It's a no brainer. Some RTF's use the same charger and batteries as others in the manufacturers line. In that case I charge multiple batteries at a time using multiple chargers. and that works for me. Others do other things.
And that is the problem in a nutshell. There is no single definitive source for information for new people to the hobby to turn to. It's a whatever works scenario. Unfortunately, whatever works for me may not work for you.

[CrimzonRider]

I totally agree with you feldman...manufacturers information is shallow at best, but with a little salt and all the info on this board and others and 40,000 different opinions, just about anyone including me just getting into eflight can figure out lipo's and what works best for them.

[flydiver]

Originally Posted by NJSwede

Safe enough? Any reason I should replace the simple ParkZone charger with something fancier? In terms of ease of operation, it doesn't get much simpler...

Plenty safe. The only problem > PZ charger. If it's working-great. I've had a number of them and almost universally a miserable experience.
If you actually want to KNOW something (mA, actual charge rate, balancing activity) they don't work at all for that, when they work.

[slipstick]

And the part you don't seem to have worked out yet: There's no definitive source for information because there's no definitive information available .

There are hundreds of different charger designs and a lot more than that batteries. As far as the manufacturers are concerned we are abusing our batteries terribly and we're always pushing the boundaries of what's possible. And we will insist on talking about it.

There is plenty of information about for newcomers, most of which errs on the "Keep safe" side. But we can't stop newcomers from reading all the rest of the information, some of which assumes some prior understanding. And we can't stop idiots who don't really understand what's going on from posting their pet theories. All we can do is warn people when someone posts potentially dangerous theories.

But you aren't going ever to get simple accurate detailed instructions which cover every battery and charger ever made, including the new ones coming out next week, and which no-one in the universe disagrees with. That's just not how the Internet works. You either live with it a degree of uncertainty or go back to printing and word of mouth....and many of us remember how well THAT worked....not .

Enough of the philosophy....lipos aren't deadly, they're just things that contain a fair amount of energy so they need treating with a degree of care. If you follow the fairly simple instructions you and your batteries will live a long and productive life....probably.

Steve

[NJSwede]

Originally Posted by flydiver

Plenty safe. The only problem > PZ charger. If it's working-great. I've had a number of them and almost universally a miserable experience.
If you actually want to KNOW something (mA, actual charge rate, balancing activity) they don't work at all for that, when they work.

Well... It charges the battery and the battery makes the prop turn on the plane, so it's doing something right. And that's about as much as I care about at this point. (Apart from not blowing my house up). I usually bring her in for landing after about 6-7 minutes to stay on the safe side. I haven't bothered to measure the voltage after a flight, but I will do that next time.

[flydiver]

I've had 6 PZ chargers. Only 2 still work. Only 1 fried by my stupidity. All others rolled over and died without warning. Pretty poor showing.
I rarely use the remaining 2 and wouldn't sell them to anyone.

Checking post-flight voltage: you want at least 3.7v/cell. Expect that there is bounce back after the load is removed.

[Wrongway-Feldman]

Originally Posted by NJSwede

Well... It charges the battery and the battery makes the prop turn on the plane, so it's doing something right. And that's about as much as I care about at this point. (Apart from not blowing my house up). I usually bring her in for landing after about 6-7 minutes to stay on the safe side. I haven't bothered to measure the voltage after a flight, but I will do that next time.

When you are just starting out, that is all that should matter. Some of the lipo discussion out there is to see who can push the pack to their limits, maximum cycles, etc. But with the prices of lipo packs as low as they are and with the price dropping all the time, does it really matter if I get 10% more use out of my packs?
It cost less to buy a decent lipo pack than a pack of namebrand AA's .
Remember when you had your first walkman? ( aging myself here ). A pack of batteries for that thing cost almost as much as the cassette we listened to, and if we were lucky we got about a weeks use out of those batteries. Yet we spend $20 on a lipo pack that in ordinary use and care will last for years. But we still try to squeeze every last drop out of those packs like they are made of gold and cost as much.
I just don't understand it.
Friends of mine do scrapbooking. they will spend $100 on supplies, spend a weekend scrapbooking with friends, and that's it, no more supplies. they have to spend another $100 if they want to do it again.
We, on the other hand, can spend $200 on a plane that comes complete and ready to fly. Maybe another $50 on some extra batteries and off we go. Even with crashes and repairs it is still much much cheaper than most other hobbies i know of.
But by pushing the lipo use to the limit just for the sake of seeing if it can be done, these threads are filled with amazing and terrific information that doesn't really matter to the casual flyer.
Cheap supplied chargers are just that. Cheap. they can fail.
Better chargers would be great to use. But If all you want to do it charge your battery without anything fancy. Just a basic charge. It can be a daunting task for the new user. Just starting a charge can be a seven step process on some chargers. Unless you program it the way you want it. But if you are new to this you don't know what to program it to, or for that matter how.
I realize there are a ton of chargers and batteries out there. but they all work to the same principle. Therefore giving instructions shouldn't be that hard.
As in: X battery with Y capacity and Z discharge can safely be charged at such and such settings. All good chargers use the same settings ( for the most part). They just have them in different menu option.
The problem is no-one can agree on what such and such settings are.

[dkrhardy]

Wrongway - you and I are on the same page, me thinks. I do as you do and my "seasoned" friends don't go off on me. If the charger or a battery goes bye-bye, then I'll look for another. DISCLAIMER * I charge carefully 'cause I don't want to burn anything, house/patio/car/plane, etc. I also don't want to spend a bundle on a charger that is still a charger, nothing more. So I think, only my $.02, that care and caution are the true key points. Charger or battery goes belly-up, that's one of the costs. Yes I am new and not sure I want to go into the DEEP water yet.
I say all of the above with respect and dignity and love in my heart!

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by Wrongway-Feldman

I fully admit that when it come's to Lipo technology I'm a complete newby.
But as a IT tech for many many years I am very familiar with the battery technology that led up to it as they were all used over the years in laptops.
The common thread when first learning about and using Lipo batteries seems to be handle with kid gloves. These are all time bombs waiting to go off. This type of information is usually followed by a link to the famous youtube videos of lipo's going up in flames and exploding.
Lipo batteries, it seems, are hand grenades we harness to power our planes.

Agreed: Lipos are generally safe to use, when properly applied. And perhaps a very small percentage of the Lipos in use actually ignite and cause secondary damage. It's the secondary damage that is of concern. A $25.00 battery could do $25,000 damage to your vehicle or worse if things really go to heck.

I suspect more than a few of the widely reported Lipo fires resulted from improper setup of the chargers that were used to charge the Lipo battery.

What really helps in this area is a quality Lipo charger. A number of chargers are available from the real el-cheapos, to the Cellpro Prolab 8 I just picked up. The various Cellpro chargers do show what is happining to your battery under charge. Just take a look at the Cellpro Prolab 8 user manual, available from the Internet as a PDF file. This is a 78 page document, and once this charger is set up, it's pretty much a plug and play unit.

[Wrongway-Feldman]

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech

What really helps in this area is a quality Lipo charger. A number of chargers are available from the real el-cheapos, to the Cellpro Prolab 8 I just picked up. The various Cellpro chargers do show what is happining to your battery under charge. Just take a look at the Cellpro Prolab 8 user manual, available from the Internet as a PDF file. This is a 78 page document, and once this charger is set up, it's pretty much a plug and play unit.

that is a very nice charger. For an experienced hobbyist. It's like learning to drive in a formula 1 race car if you are new to all this. 78 pages of instructions to explain powersupply setup, multiple chargers, parallel charging, computer monitoring. It's very daunting for a new user. Keep in mind that you build your own chargers and ballancers from scratch. This is all second nature to you.
But some-one new to all this, and is just a casual flyer, just want to safely charge their cells. Plug and play.
The technology exists for the charger to automatically identify the type of battery connected. Even if not using that technolgy a simple button for lipo, nimh, etc. So why not have a simple quality charger that identifies what needs charging and has a couple of basic options? Charge rate for basic use, and maybe some extended options once the user gets more experience. This coupled with a concise manual detailing Lipos and their safe usage, ratings, etc, will go along way into making this hobby even more friendly to new flyers.

[flydiver]

Agree with Kyle. Folks are always looking for a bargain. The various Bantam clones (Accucel-6 type chargers ad naseum) are hugely popular. The thread on the Group on how to use it is now 181 pages LONG!
I have the Cellpro 4S. There pretty much isn't a thread. It's just got to be one of the easiest and safest chargers for parkflier lipos out there.
FWIW I do have an AC-6 also. Decent charger once you sort it out. Not in the same league as the Cellpro but OK for the price.

Most lipo fires are a result of user error > crash damage or improper charger setup. Most newbies ruin their first half dozen lipos due to crashes or lack of knowledge on how to care for them. Seems that's just the way it is.

[hillbillynamedpossum]

I have a simple hyperion charger that does just that. You plug the balance cord and power leads in to it and it can tell what kind of battery you have. About 3 button pushes later, and the pack is being charged.

That being said, I had to build the main power adapter and buy a balance plug adapter to go with the JXT (or JTX) balance tap.

I few spent about 5 min RTFM and it was charging its first battery.

I think that Kyle and feldman should write a lipo and life for newbies wiki entry.

Possum

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by Wrongway-Feldman

that is a very nice charger. For an experienced hobbyist. It's like learning to drive in a formula 1 race car if you are new to all this. 78 pages of instructions to explain powersupply setup, multiple chargers, parallel charging, computer monitoring. It's very daunting for a new user. Keep in mind that you build your own chargers and ballancers from scratch. This is all second nature to you. This coupled with a concise manual detailing Lipos and their safe usage, ratings, etc, will go along way into making this hobby even more friendly to new flyers.

Agreed:
The Cellpro Prolab 8 can be programmed for your exact batteries, and their best charging rate. Those "User" configurations can be configured as #1, #2, #3 and so on for each different type of battery you've got. That's where those 78 pages go.

Nice thing about it is when you plug in your battery and are ready to go, the #8 lets you know what type of cell you're connected to, Lipo or A123. And, you've got to respond before it will continue.

It can also charge Nicads and Lead Acid batteries. Makes it kind of "idiot proof, but not danged fool proof" I guess.

[Wrongway-Feldman]

Originally Posted by hillbillynamedpossum

I have a simple hyperion charger that does just that. You plug the balance cord and power leads in to it and it can tell what kind of battery you have. About 3 button pushes later, and the pack is being charged.

That being said, I had to build the main power adapter and buy a balance plug adapter to go with the JXT (or JTX) balance tap.

I few spent about 5 min RTFM and it was charging its first battery.

I think that Kyle and feldman should write a lipo and life for newbies wiki entry.

Possum

Haha. Thanks for the vote of confidence but I'm new to lipo's myself.
I just have a habit of trying to simplify things for others. I used to rewrite instruction manuals for end users years ago and liked getting to the root and explaining that to others. I still have a ton to learn about this stuff.

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by hillbillynamedpossum

I have a simple hyperion charger that does just that. You plug the balance cord and power leads in to it and it can tell what kind of battery you have. About 3 button pushes later, and the pack is being charged.

That being said, I had to build the main power adapter and buy a balance plug adapter to go with the JXT (or JTX) balance tap.

I few spent about 5 min RTFM and it was charging its first battery.

I think that Kyle and feldman should write a lipo and life for newbies wiki entry.

Possum

LOL
Problem is, I've never owned a Lipo, just read about them in countless threads. Do have some a total of 72 2300 Mah A123 cells in my various models though!

Out of curiosity, does your Hyperion charger give an indication of individual cell voltages, and total milliamperes put into the battery during the charging process?

[Wrongway-Feldman]

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech

Agreed:
The Cellpro Prolab 8 can be programmed for your exact batteries, and their best charging rate. Those "User" configurations can be configured as #1, #2, #3 and so on for each different type of battery you've got. That's where those 78 pages go.

Nice thing about it is when you plug in your battery and are ready to go, the #8 lets you know what type of cell you're connected to, Lipo or A123. And, you've got to respond before it will continue.

It can also charge Nicads and Lead Acid batteries. Makes it kind of "idiot proof, but not danged fool proof" I guess.

every time something is called idiot proof some idiot comes along proves ever-one wrong.
After reading the manual I'm considering getting the Prolab myself. Very nice stuff.
I especially like the 1000 watt capability with parallel charging. Very nice features.

[kyleservicetech]

Originally Posted by Wrongway-Feldman

every time something is called idiot proof some idiot comes along proves ever-one wrong.
After reading the manual I'm considering getting the Prolab myself. Very nice stuff.
I especially like the 1000 watt capability with parallel charging. Very nice features.

Sounds good, IMHO, you'll not regret it. Note that to get the 1000 watt capability, you need a pair of SERIES 12 volt Deep Cycle marine batteries. If you put those batteries in parallel, you "only" get 500 watts. Even still, that will charge my 6S4P A123 battery pack at 20 Amperes with no strain.

This thing also has the ability to upgrade its software via internet if Cellpro has something new come out.

Having built my own microcontroller controlled battery chargers over the years, I can appreciate how the Cellpro unit works. (Back in the 1990's one of my chargers was a an automotive alternator I rewound for getting 45 Volts out. Then added a microcontroller to make it into a five ampere charger with peak detection for a 38 cell Nicad pack. When the charge was complete, it killed the 3.5 Hp gasoline engine for the alternator. Still got it.)

[hillbillynamedpossum]

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech

LOL
Out of curiosity, does your Hyperion charger give an indication of individual cell voltages, and total milliamperes put into the battery during the charging process?

Yup...its got plenty of bells and whistles, but still simple enough for a simpleton like me to use. I really like it....they probably dont make it any more!

Possum

[Wrongway-Feldman]

A power supply capable oh providing the power won't be a problem. I still have several IBM servers sitting around in my basement. They have power supplies rated upwards of 2000 watts. What I used to do in the past was run a 12volt power supply to a deep cycle battery and then to the device needing the power. It worked great as a basic power regulator. But with these high end power supplies that is not an issue anymore..

I think i may just write a basic lipo manual that cuts to the chase. Just the basics needed to be safe and have fun.

[hillbillynamedpossum]

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech

(Back in the 1990's one of my chargers was a an automotive alternator I rewound for getting 45 Volts out. Then added a microcontroller to make it into a five ampere charger with peak detection for a 38 cell Nicad pack. When the charge was complete, it killed the 3.5 Hp gasoline engine for the alternator. Still got it.)

Kyle you are an animal. So how long till you get your cold-fusion powered, full scale, YB-49 up and flying?

Possum

PS when I grow up I wanna be like you!