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Old 03-09-2011, 09:07 PM   #1
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Default Kadet Senior

Greetings.
I am building a Kadet Senior and have a question about balance. I saw another man build one and he had to add 12 oz of weight to the nose even with a full tank. Mine will be electric and I was wondering if I can balance with a BIG battery? I hate to add dead weight. I would rather lengthen the nose. I have not picked a motor or battery yet.
I know almost nothing about electrics and this is my first big bird. I have been building free flight rubber for a few years and love it. I want to fly r/c and have some practice but not with a big bird like this.
What does a motor for something like this weigh? How big of a lipo can I get and what will it all weigh compared to a stinky engine and fuel tank?
The Kadet Senior has wing span of 78 inches. Wing area is 1150 sq. inches and she should weigh around 6 maybe seven pounds. I'm not looking to do tricks, but I don't want a lame duck either. At some point, I would like to add cameras and lights.
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:24 PM   #2
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I have one from Nitro Planes but its not put together yet.

That being said I am planning to use something that fits between my Sr Telemaster & Seniorita.

Most likely an SK 4250/650 80amp ESC with a 13X8 wood prop & either a 4 or 5S battery.


Sr. Telemaster 94". HobbyCity SK5055/580 80amp ESC, 15X8 prop & 5S5000 battery. The Telemaster will balance on battery placement.


Senorita 64" with a Power-25, 80amp ESC, MAS 12X8X3 prop & 4S4000 battery. It also balances with battery placement.


How do you in tend to mount the battery?

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Old 03-09-2011, 10:35 PM   #3
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Thanks for the reply. Its nice to know that I don't have to alter a bunch of stuff. I like the look of the plane as it is.
I plan on doing a trap door thing under the nose. Maybe a slot, I am not sure.
Could I bother you for the dimensions of that battery? I am pretty sure it will fit. My kit did not come with plans so I ordered a couple sets. I will know more when I get them.
Again, thanks.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:00 PM   #4
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I have 5S5000 which are 6"X2"X1.75" Also ave some newer nano-tech's 5S5000 which are 6.25"X2"X1.6"

EDIT: These will both fit in the Senorita, but I use 4S in it.

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Old 03-10-2011, 11:29 AM   #5
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Thank you very much. That helps alot. I will post pics of the build, if anybody follows these things. It will take some time, but most things I do don't happen very fast.
Again, Thanks for the info. Have a great day. I am still trying to get thru all the stickys.
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Old 05-04-2011, 04:00 AM   #6
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Few pics of the wing. Just getting started. I have never handled spruce before . I like it. I might use it on a smaller plane some day. I have built and flown a few free flight planes and this does not seem all that different, except for the weight and size. Hopeing to finish around 6 pounds. Don't know what the camera will weigh, need to learn to fly it first.
Question about where the wings join. The instructions warn about proper gluing at the dihedral joint, and so far, I think I'm cool. The wing joiner is ply and I was wondering if there is a favorite glue or epoxy for that joint.? Is there a preferred mod for this? The plans call for drilling small holes thru the joiner and spar and filling them with epoxy. Kinda' like a liquid "nail". Any comments on this ? Maybe a link to a good thread on the subject?
Thanks folks. Please bear with me. I am not a fast builder but we will get there.






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Old 05-04-2011, 05:31 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by thymekiller View Post
Greetings.
I am building a Kadet Senior and have a question about balance. I saw another man build one and he had to add 12 oz of weight to the nose even with a full tank. Mine will be electric and I was wondering if I can balance with a BIG battery? I hate to add dead weight. I would rather lengthen the nose. I have not picked a motor or battery yet.
I know almost nothing about electrics and this is my first big bird. I have been building free flight rubber for a few years and love it. I want to fly r/c and have some practice but not with a big bird like this.
What does a motor for something like this weigh? How big of a lipo can I get and what will it all weigh compared to a stinky engine and fuel tank?
The Kadet Senior has wing span of 78 inches. Wing area is 1150 sq. inches and she should weigh around 6 maybe seven pounds. I'm not looking to do tricks, but I don't want a lame duck either. At some point, I would like to add cameras and lights.
Check out www.motocalc.com, free for 30 days, then $39. This or other similar programs will help you select the proper power system. This program also includes the weights of most common motors, ESC's and Lipo batteries. You might not have room, but check out the 2300 Mah A123 batteries. They have zero fire hazard, and can be left in the model while recharging them. If you have a high powered charger, these cells can be recharged in 15-20 minutes. I'm using the Cellpro Powerlab 8, expensive, but Cellpro has other lower cost units.

As for me, I'm an admitted Hacker nut, (Got 8 of them from an A30 size to an A60 size, plus three in the A50 size) and would first start with a Hacker A50-16S, 16X12 APC-E (Electric Prop), a 5S Lipo battery, perhaps 4000 or 5000 Milliampere Hours. This Hacker A50-16S motor has power performance as good as or maybe slightly better than a 4 stroke 70 Glow engine. Also you need an Electronic Speed Control, (ESC). Castle Creations makes good ones, like their 75 Amp ICE series. (The CC ICE ESC's include a LOT of data recording that allows you to download this stuff to a computer after a flight. Things like volts, current, watts, RPM, ampere hours and so on are all recorded, and graphed out.)

If www.motocalc.com suggests the Hacker A50**S (S=Short) motor might be a little low, check out the various A50**L (L=long) case motor. Slightly more power, more $$$. Hacker has a number of different "winds" for the same case size. So these different winds allow the user to put in different diameter and pitch props, depending on the intended models flying speed. www.motocalc.com will help on this.

If you don't select a good quality motor such as Hacker, be sure to research other motors in wattflyer to see if they've had any problems. A few of them do.

For more information on conversion of gas models to electric power, check out my thread:
Thread on 70 size glow engine conversion to electric
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45222

As for the camera and lights, check out those "Keychain" video cameras. Don't know if they are still selling them, but I bought two through wattflyer on another thread. This tiny camera out performs a $100 video camera purchased for this purpose. And you can mount it on a wing tip with velcro, out of the propeller arc and not even know it's there.

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Old 05-04-2011, 01:11 PM   #8
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Thank you very much for that informative reply. I will look into it. I am new to this, as far as R/C. What flying speed am I looking for. I don't want to do tricks, just cruise. This bird is indeed a "trainer" for me. Any idea how much weight this bird will carry in cameras and such?
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Old 05-04-2011, 04:22 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by thymekiller View Post
Thank you very much for that informative reply. I will look into it. I am new to this, as far as R/C. What flying speed am I looking for. I don't want to do tricks, just cruise. This bird is indeed a "trainer" for me. Any idea how much weight this bird will carry in cameras and such?
thymekiller
Sounds good.

Do you have a lot of experience in flying RC? If this is your first RC model, it would be a very good idea to join a local club that provides instructors. Otherwise your model may only have one "flight".

Pure guestimation, you're models flying speed might be around 50 MPH or so. And with that airfoil, given enough horsepower on the front end, a one pound camera should be reasonable. But if that camera has a "Flat" front face, you'd need to worry about wind resistance. Been there, done that.

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Old 05-04-2011, 05:18 PM   #10
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Though I've not built a kadet, I've come across many, both Senior and her kit sister 'Rita' and they all flew superbly.

One that sticks in mind was a Senior built by a clubmate. In order to fit it into his baby bee-em sedan, he built the wing as a two piece with steel rod and brss tube joiners. He figured around just over a pound of added weight there alone. With a 24 cell nicad battery - this was a while back - he never weighed it, but we think it was well north of ten pounds.

I did the test flights - sheflew as well as every other Sig I've flown. The only snag was that he built her as a taildragger by moving the kit main gear to the front face of the former at the LE. Location was good, the gear was way too flexible given the AUW.

However, with atailskid to match our largely grass field, the taildragger worked fine. Can't recall his exact prop diameter, but the kit's trike gear is designed aroundthe typical glow engine which can give serious clearance issues with our typical larger e-power props.

The simple solution for a swap to taildragger involves a little doodling on the plan, go to www.tntlandinggear.com, dowload their custom gear quotation sheet and see if you like their quote. Another solution is a two legged music wire gear, as found on many larger old timer models.

As youcan build wooden frameworks, albeit a little smaller, you could again do a little doodling and extend the nose length a little. Maybe threeinches - it shouldn't bother the aerodynamics and, done by keeping the curves and depths, will be almost unnoticable. That will help with that tail- heaviness issue too - going taildragger isalsoon your side in that issue too.

There is much written online on converting this and other Sig kits - though it may mean a trip to another Zone that deals with 'E'lectrics, for a subtle hint . Research is well worth the time and effort.

Can only emphasise other folks' suggestions that you find a good flight instructor. This is a superb trainer, but there's a lot of it and it flies and handles in line with its weight and inertia.

Good luck with your project

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Old 05-05-2011, 10:02 PM   #11
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If it's all right with ya'll. I would like to continue my build here, where it is. Unless I'm in the wrong category. I would also like to at least lurk on threads where others have done this before, so as not to repeat any mistakes. I promise lots of pics!!!

I am new at R/C. I have flown a few on my own and I have a "Sky Fly 2". Again, on my own, I have had limited success. I recently joined the Springfield R/C club and, thankfully, have gotten many offers to help both in parts and training. I'm good in that department. Also, I'm not afraid to crash. My free flighters crash all the time. I am hoping to fly this weekend, weather permiting. We have a paved runway. That might help. I hope.

Glad you mentioned the taildragger thing. I was wondering about that. Most of the other planes I would like to fly will be taildraggers also, so why not learn on one? I have heard a little bit about carbon fiber LG. What are your thoughts on that? Was thinking maybe over sized foam wheels? Thanks for the link, I will check it out.

Making the nose longer is not a problem. I was thinking I would obtain the motor and battery and build around them.

I would also ,like to apologize for not being here every day. Sometimes life gets in the way, if you know what I mean. I am not a fast builder and I am also working on another plane and I go back and forth.

Thanks folks. Being here adds to the confidence level greatly.

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Old 05-05-2011, 10:09 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by thymekiller View Post
Glad you mentioned the taildragger thing. I was wondering about that. Most of the other planes I would like to fly will be taildraggers also, so why not learn on one? I have heard a little bit about carbon fiber LG. What are your thoughts on that? Was thinking maybe over sized foam wheels? Thanks for the link, I will check it out.

Making the nose longer is not a problem. I was thinking I would obtain the motor and battery and build around them.
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Welcome to the wattflyer group

All my models are tail draggers, only problem with them is landings, where if you come in a little hot, these tail draggers have a tendency to "Bounce and Go".

I've had carbon fiber LG, as well as several other club members in giant scale models. If you do a little "Bounce and Go" landing with these CF landing gears, they can splinter, making them worthless. I've done it on a little 30 ounce model, and a fellow club member did it on the first flight with an 80 cc gasser. This guy is a real expert, and his landing was rather smooth. Cost him some $50.

So, the aluminum gear works well, and if you over stress one, just bend it back.

As far as the foam landing wheels, I've got a model where the foam goes flat after sitting on the table for a day or three. Standard rubber types work just fine.

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Old 05-05-2011, 10:26 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by thymekiller View Post
If it's all right with ya'll. I would like to continue my build here, where it is. Unless I'm in the wrong category...
Yes, of course you should continue your build thread here. It's your thread and this is the correct place. It is always better to keep things together.
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:51 PM   #14
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Thymekiller i use epoxy when it comes to fire walls ,wing joiners and any thing else that needs to be strong. I use ca some times to tack stuff but i use tight bond 2 white glue for every thing else and hold with pins or weights till dry. I have two kadet seniors as i am colecting them to teach my 8 year old heathen son how to fly this summer. Iam using 40 nitro on mine because i have so many of them and he likes the noise . lol Build away man ,we are glad you are having a build thread for us to watch. joe
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:49 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by road king 97 View Post
I use ca some times to tack stuff but i use tight bond 2 white glue for every thing else and hold with pins or weights till dry.
Some years ago, I weighed a glue joint sample made with Titebond, and CA. After the Titebond was allowed to dry for 48 hours, the Titebond glue joint was LIGHTER than the CA glue joint.

That was a complete surprise.

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Old 05-06-2011, 12:13 AM   #16
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Much of the weight of wood glue is water which evaporates as the glue dries. Epoxy and CA set and retain most if not all of their weight.
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:26 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Turner View Post
Much of the weight of wood glue is water which evaporates as the glue dries. Epoxy and CA set and retain most if not all of their weight.
Exactly: I was just surprised how much of the yellow wood glue did wind up evaporating. Right after gluing with the Titebond, its weight was many times that of the CA glue joing.

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Old 05-06-2011, 12:47 AM   #18
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You have to be sparingly with epoxy and ca because of weight .I dont like ca when put in areas that you will have to sand later .It is much harder that balsa ,but white glue sands easy and is stronger, i think. If you do get some ca on your sheeting and you dont want to sand all of your balsa away just put painters blue tape over the balsa and sand the ca spot off then remove tape I put my tight bond 2 white glue in a plastic dentest water siringe with a small curve in it.That makes it easy to put where you want it .When iam done building for the night i put the end of siringe in water and it never cloggs up. After putting some white glue on things i tidy up the joints with a small paint brush to get rid of excess glue and the brush will help fill the joints. good luck with your build killer. joe
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Old 05-06-2011, 02:23 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by road king 97 View Post
You have to be sparingly with epoxy and ca because of weight .I dont like ca when put in areas that you will have to sand later .It is much harder that balsa ,but white glue sands easy and is stronger, i think. If you do get some ca on your sheeting and you dont want to sand all of your balsa away just put painters blue tape over the balsa and sand the ca spot off then remove tape I put my tight bond 2 white glue in a plastic dentest water siringe with a small curve in it.That makes it easy to put where you want it .When iam done building for the night i put the end of siringe in water and it never cloggs up. After putting some white glue on things i tidy up the joints with a small paint brush to get rid of excess glue and the brush will help fill the joints. good luck with your build killer. joe
We've got what's called a Farm and Fleet around here in SE Wisconsin. Check out those hypodermic syringes that the farmers use. Works very well with Titebond and similar type adhesives.

Just don't show it to any small children

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Old 05-06-2011, 03:44 PM   #20
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Hey thymekiller dont forget to put plywood plates for floats in the bottom of the fuse for later water fun. We have a farm and fleet here also i will check it out , thanks klyeservicetech. joe
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Old 05-06-2011, 04:18 PM   #21
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On the taildragger conversion - if you can't find a suitable UC/LG, the good address is

Www.tntlandinggear.com

Download the custom UC order form, figure out the size you'll need and return it for a quote. Their prices aren't silly and their workmanship is very good.

A less than adequate UC will ruin your Sundays! I did a lot of research into keeping models and their UCs in order back in the day of 20 cell nicad packs weighing around 44oz - another good idea involves a length of alloy 'L' section around 1" each side, pretty cheap from a big box hardware store. A thin birch ply - NOT liteply - doubler glued to the fuselage inner face takes the alloy L section with epoxy, and the UC is then bolted to the horizontal faces.

There's odd views that a model's LG should be able to tear itself off, usually via nylon bolts. After much practical testing, I found I'd rather model and UC stay together...

A taildragger main gear is usually in a good position to be the forward support for floats, if you fancy that route too. Trikes are seldom as accomadating there...

Hope that helps

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Old 05-06-2011, 05:01 PM   #22
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This one is balancing OK on battery placement. If it does not balance found some really good stuff that you can custom form including setting mounting screws. Made a custom horseshoe bolted to the firewall to fit inside the cowl on a H9 Camel.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_98...tm.htm#9831343


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Old 05-11-2011, 12:36 AM   #23
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Me again. Got the first one done and since all the fitting and sanding was already done, the second half is almost finished. The innermost ribs are just tacked. Will set when its time for dihedral. Then I can web and sheet the center. The planes call for cloth and glue or resin over the center sheeting on top. What do ya'll recommend I use at that point, fiberglass? Is there something better?
Before I set dihedral, I am going to build the bottom of the travel box. The wing can lay flat on that and it will set on shelf bracketts. Should keep it safe and flat and out of harms way. My room is kinda crowded so I have to work it in as I can.
Anyway, I am gonna spend some time with my other project and I will be back soon.
Thanks for all the help. I think I will build the tailfeathers next. What hinges do you recommend? Along the same lines, what method of control rod is best? The plans call for long, unsupported balsa sticks with ends made onto them. I don't think I like that as much as the "rod in a tube" thing. I also need advice about clevis and control horns. Are the ball hinge types suitable for this size craft? Because I am new to this, I am thinking I need something easy to set up and adjustable.
AAAHHHH!!!!! So many questions!!
btw, I have been working my way though the site and have found some remarkable work here. Thanks for being here.











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Old 05-11-2011, 12:44 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by thymekiller View Post
Me again. Got the first one done and since all the fitting and sanding was already done, the second half is almost finished. The innermost ribs are just tacked. Will set when its time for dihedral. Then I can web and sheet the center. The planes call for cloth and glue or resin over the center sheeting on top. What do ya'll recommend I use at that point, fiberglass? Is there something better?
Before I set dihedral, I am going to build the bottom of the travel box. The wing can lay flat on that and it will set on shelf bracketts. Should keep it safe and flat and out of harms way. My room is kinda crowded so I have to work it in as I can.

Wow, very nice so far!

I've reinforced the center joint of a model airplane wing many times with two or three inch wide fiberglass tape and 30 minute epoxy. Something like the 2 ounce stuff, with a finished edge, not raw fibers. Those raw fibers will shed during application of the epoxy and make a mess.

But be aware that the fiberglass tape will leave an obvious edge.

This type of joint is extremely strong. Be sure to use just enough epoxy to wet both the wing and the fiberglass. To much epoxy is heavy. It helps to use a credit card or similar item to wipe away excess epoxy.

And, be sure to use rubber gloves!!!

DennyV
Retired and the days are just too short, busier than ever!
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Old 05-11-2011, 03:09 AM   #25
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I heat my center section up with a heat gun after applying my 30 min epoxy then scrape off excess. Heat turns it into almost water texture.I scrape it and dap it with tissues to get it off then let it dry.WARNING WARNING when you do this you will no longer have 30 min to cure but with heat it will cure much faster. joe
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