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Old 03-16-2011, 05:21 AM   #1
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Cool Thermal Scout - Helps you find thermals?

I read an ad for the Thermal Scout in Model Aviation about a year ago. It looked interesting but I never did anything further.

I would like to hear any experience reports from people who have the Thermal Scout. I found a couple of reports on other forums and they were quote prositive. But I want to hear from anyone here who has tried it.

Thermal Scout
http://www.wingedshadow.com/thermalscout.html

Video of action produced by Thermal Scout
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-2hhtXUIAU
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17657608&postcount=37

The concept is simple. You put this on the rudder, between the receiver and the servo. A second wire goes to another channel, a control channel, typically a switched channel like the gear channel on a DX5e radio.

You launch with it turned off. Go thermal hunting. Turn it on at any time you want help finding lift. When it detects lift it wags the rudder so you can see the plane wag or the wings rock, depending on your plane. The posts I have read then suggest you turn it off and work the lift.

It looks interesting so I ordered one. It arrived today.

I have flown with thermal pilots using variometers that talk to you constantly via an ear peace. Some just provide a rising or falling tone, similar to the devices used in full scale sailplanes. Some actually read off altitude. However these varios are expensive, so I never bothered and really didn't want something talking to me as I fly.

However the Thermal Scout is $49 and silent in operation. I will try it in my Radian. I use the Radian as my trainer plane so it may be helpful in teaching new pilots to find lift.

What's your experience with the Thermal Scout?

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Old 03-16-2011, 06:05 AM   #2
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I've flown the Thermal Scout a couple of times or my Radian 2-meter glider.

I first had it set to 'smooth' mode. In the kinds of gusty winds I fly in, I couldn't reliably tell the Scout's rudder wagging from everyday crazy wind.

Next I switched it to 'step' mode, which the instructions recommend for larger, slower airplanes.

There's little chance of missing the signal now. It will darned near knock the plane out of the sky. I have to turn it off pronto when I see it start to signal.

It has helped me a bit, although I haven't had it out on any especially thermally days.

I'll report back when I've had more experience with it, but it definitely beats my eyes, on their own, for detecting lift.

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Old 03-16-2011, 12:45 PM   #3
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Above I compare the TS to one of the more advanced and expensive variometers. Here are several, if you are interested in the high end stuff. Picolario, Hyperflight, Seagull, Eagletree and others make them for RC Gliders. They ain’t cheap.
http://picolario.com/
http://www.eagletreesystems.com/Sailplane/sailplane.html
http://www.rc-log.co.uk/index.php?target=products&product_id=28
http://www.hyperflight.co.uk/products.asp?code=DATAVARIO&name=cs-datavario-logging-extendable-voice-vario

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Old 03-16-2011, 04:10 PM   #4
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I've flown about 100 flights with a ThermalScout in my Radian, Ed and yes, it helps find lift.

At my field, there are a 100 acres of "tilled" soil so in the Spring, there is sometimes lift over the plowed, seeded fields. That was the conventional wisdom so I wasted many flights hunting lift over there.

Once I added the Scout, I found my best lift was over a tree line that bordered the Connecticut River at the North end of our runway. Kind of like slope soaring but less dramatic.

I never would have found it without the Scout.

Also, I has discovered that when I do find lift over the fields, it is almost always on the move (away from me) and I have to circle further and further away (to the East) to stay in the thermal.

I never would have figured this out either without the Scout.

All-in-all, the best $50 a newbie could spend on a sailplane.

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Old 03-16-2011, 10:01 PM   #5
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Sounds like my early experiences, especially the 'on the move' part. I've found lift over a tree line and in areas of the flying field where I wouldn't have looked.

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Old 03-17-2011, 04:33 AM   #6
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Great reports guys. Keep 'em coming! Anyone else?

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Old 03-25-2011, 12:39 PM   #7
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A member of my club asked if these were allowed in contests. Under AMA rules, the Thermal Scout would be permitted at a glider contest, as per rule f on page SO-4, right column. Naturally the CD can designate otherwise, but AMA rules do allow it.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2...2RCSoaring.pdf

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Old 03-27-2011, 01:21 AM   #8
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Interesting.

The FAI rules would seem to contradict that in some cases.

ftp://www.fai.org/sporting_code/sc4/...soaring_09.pdf

From pg 8 of that doc:
d) Any device for transmission of information from the model aircraft to the competitor is prohibited.
and in the Hand launch section on page 23:

The use of gyros and variometers on board the model glider is not allowed.
and on page 39:

i Any in-flight altitude measuring device (altimeter or variometer) is forbidden.
On the other hand, those were only mentioned for certain types of gliders and contests and not for all.

For example I didnt see anything under Thermal Duration excluding variometers - other than the general ban on any device for "transmitting information" from the glider.

I wonder if the Thermal Scout qualifies as "transmitting information" by wagging the tail?

Seems to me that technically it would, but perhaps they only mean down links - though that was not specified.

In any case, one of the local clubs that has regular glider events does exclude any type of onboard device like thermal sniffers, altimiters etc and they hold AMA sanctioned events. I have no idea if thats just the local CD's added "rule" or not.

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Old 03-27-2011, 01:59 AM   #9
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Local CD can always set local rules. The AMA rules are just a base to work from. However, according to AMA, if it is an AMA sanctioned event any modifications from AMA rules must be published prior to the contest.

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Old 03-28-2011, 08:53 PM   #10
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Here's a video showing the Thermal Scout at work on my Radian. You can see what the lift indication looks like, and how it affects the plane. FWIW

Thermal Hunting.

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Old 03-28-2011, 09:00 PM   #11
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I'm sure "trasnsmitting" means by radio frequency. A wagging tail is a visual indicator. If it were to be interpered as "transmitting information" then so would the natural twitch in the plane's attitude caused by it's encountering the edge of a thermal cell.

At least that would be my logical conclusion, and logic is not always used when making rules. So don't take it as gospel.

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Old 03-28-2011, 11:49 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by FlyWheel View Post
I'm sure "trasnsmitting" means by radio frequency. A wagging tail is a visual indicator. If it were to be interpered as "transmitting information" then so would the natural twitch in the plane's attitude caused by it's encountering the edge of a thermal cell.

At least that would be my logical conclusion, and logic is not always used when making rules. So don't take it as gospel.

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You may be 100% correct

However, it seems to me that the intention of the FAI rule is to stop the use of any "device" added to the plane that aids the pilot.

The purpose being to force the pilot to rely on direct visual observation of how the model is flying. The fact that they used the word 'information' rather than 'signal' leads me to believe they wanted to include devices like the Thermal scout.

That would also include devices that flash lights or use sound signals - both of which have been tried. If Im not mistaken, there was an earlier device similar to the thermal scout that wagged the ailerons.

In other words, they - the FAI at least - want pilot skill to be the main factor in who wins a contest rather than the efficiency of some electronic 'device'.

Of course, as AEAJR said, thats entirely up to the CD at the contest. I would imagine at some contests - even ones run by FAI rules rather than AMA guidelines, that the use of 'devices' might be allowed - or at least some devices.

People tend to do what ever the heck they want to do - including interpreting rules as they see fit

I think I need a signature.
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:54 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by mclarkson View Post
Here's a video showing the Thermal Scout at work on my Radian. You can see what the lift indication looks like, and how it affects the plane. FWIW

Thermal Hunting.
Mark, it looks to me like the Scout turns your model 90 degrees or more to the right most every time it signals.

Is that the way its supposed to work or some result of your linkages or set up or?

I am no expert by any means, but that seems to be a waist of energy and lift. On top of that it is forcing you to expend even more in correcting back to the original course.

Are you able to adjust this or is it a fixed thing or is the signaling effect worth the loss of lift?

Nicely done of the multi view video by the way. I know from experience thats not as easy to do as you make it look

I think I need a signature.
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Old 03-29-2011, 02:00 AM   #14
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Larry, it jerks the out of the plane, no doubt. There is another, 'smooth' setting which is much less violent. Unfortunately, I have a hard time reading that one in gusty, bumpy air.

I'm sadly unaware of any way to 'tone down' the Thermal Scout, other than changing the mechanical linkages to give the rudder less throw.

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Old 03-29-2011, 05:20 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Larry3215 View Post
You may be 100% correct

However, it seems to me that the intention of the FAI rule is to stop the use of any "device" added to the plane that aids the pilot.

That may be so, but I fly under AMA rules, not FAI rules.

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Old 03-29-2011, 10:38 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by AEAJR View Post
That may be so, but I fly under AMA rules, not FAI rules.
Like you said, thats going to depend on the CD.

From what I have seen locally in the pacific North West, the largest AMA glider club around follows FAI rules for most of their events.

Then there is the NWSS (North West Soaring Society) which seems to have their own 'blend' of rules and some of the other clubs seem to follow their rules for events.

I think I need a signature.
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Old 03-29-2011, 01:30 PM   #17
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It was not my intention to start a rules debate. Someone asked me so since I did the research I shared it all with you.

The net net of this rules discussion is:

* If you attend an AMA sanctioned event and they have not previously published that these types of devices are excluded, then you are OK. By AMA rules that can not be done at the pilot's meeting. No need to ask permission or clarification. Those are the AMA rules for AMA sanctioned events.


* If you attend an event under FAI rules, then you can see what those rules are in at the link I provided.


* If you are attending an event in the United States that is not AMA or FAI sanctioned, then the rules could be anything, but I would assume AMA rules unless otherwise stated. If no statement has been made about thermal sniffing devices you should assume they are OK unless someone says they are not. IF they announce at the pilot's meeting that they are excluded, then just take it out. No biggie.

* If this keeps you up at night, then print out and carry a copy of the AMA rule book and carry it with you to help settle any confusion or missunderstandings.

Nuff said about rules.

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Old 03-29-2011, 01:34 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Larry3215 View Post
Mark, it looks to me like the Scout turns your model 90 degrees or more to the right most every time it signals.

Is that the way its supposed to work or some result of your linkages or set up or?

I am no expert by any means, but that seems to be a waist of energy and lift. On top of that it is forcing you to expend even more in correcting back to the original course.

Are you able to adjust this or is it a fixed thing or is the signaling effect worth the loss of lift?

Nicely done of the multi view video by the way. I know from experience thats not as easy to do as you make it look
There are two settings. Mine is on the default setting which makes a quick but smooth swing from left to right. All that happens is the wings rock. No 90 degree turns, no dramatic actions.

This creates enough motion to be seen from the ground but not enough to be a problem. It would be the same as if you flipped the rudder stick quickly left then right. Most likely this will go through one or two cycles till you are sure you are seeing it. Then you flip it off and work the lift. Impact on the flight path is minimal.

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Old 03-29-2011, 07:26 PM   #19
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Old 03-29-2011, 07:26 PM   #20
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Yeah, but Mark flies in a perpetual hurricane! Subtle just doesn't get it done there.
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Old 03-29-2011, 08:40 PM   #21
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So true!

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Old 03-29-2011, 09:28 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by AEAJR View Post
There are two settings. Mine is on the default setting which makes a quick but smooth swing from left to right. All that happens is the wings rock. No 90 degree turns, no dramatic actions.

This creates enough motion to be seen from the ground but not enough to be a problem. It would be the same as if you flipped the rudder stick quickly left then right. Most likely this will go through one or two cycles till you are sure you are seeing it. Then you flip it off and work the lift. Impact on the flight path is minimal.
Is the default setting the smooth setting or the higher throw setting?

I suppose how your model is set up would have a lot to do with it as well.

If you have loads of rudder throw, you will get a larger movement.

Sorry for the rules debate.

I think I need a signature.
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Old 03-29-2011, 09:34 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Larry3215 View Post
Is the default setting the smooth setting or the higher throw setting?

I suppose how your model is set up would have a lot to do with it as well.

If you have loads of rudder throw, you will get a larger movement.

Sorry for the rules debate.
I think the only difference is how jerky the plane appears. Neither has any real tendency to turn the plane, only rock the wings.

I have only seen demos on R/E aircraft and I have only tried it on my Radian.

I have not put it in the Supra, Graphite or Thermal Dancer yet, but I would expect about the same effect but with a less pronounced rock. It might appear to be more of a wag on these planes, like a cat that is about to pounce on a bird.

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Old 03-29-2011, 09:38 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by AEAJR View Post
Neither has any real tendency to turn the plane, only rock the wings.
LOL. You should watch my video before you say that.

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Old 03-29-2011, 09:47 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by mclarkson View Post
LOL. You should watch my video before you say that.
Exactly why I asked It looked to me like some of your 'signals' turned your model as much as 180 degrees with more than a 45 deg bank angle!

I think I need a signature.
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