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Old 03-28-2011, 10:52 PM   #1
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Default Glitch / lock out problem!!!!

Hi all

I am hopeing someone on this site can come up with a positive result for me as this problem i have is becoming a pain in the backside!!
The problem is this......

I recently purchased the J-Power P-38 with servoless retracts and during the maiden flight i had intermittent glitches with the motors, they were acting as if they were pulsing!?

On the second flight with a different receiver the same problem occured, this time i noticed that it was not really a glitch but what appeared to be lock out from the receiver, no servo/motor response, but only happens momentarily before control is back. There does not seem to be a pattern when this happens and range checks are fine.

Third flight......i used my JR RS77S synthesised receiver which has always been bulletproof but the same problem occured.


On each occasion the aerial has been routed around the model differently, always avoiding servo's, cables etc and lead left dangling behind the model. I originally had a ubec fitted but removed this thinking it was the problem causer but it made no difference.


Could it be time for me to move on to 2.4ghz as i have been told many times its the best for electric flight, although i have flown 9 years electric on 35mhz without a problem till now!

I eagerly await some friendly advice....

cheers
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:00 PM   #2
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Hi there,
Well, with you trying different rx's I would not think that running to 2.4 is going to be different. It may, but I'd also consider the power to the RX. If you are running BEC, be sure that the amp rating is ample. Same for the UBEC, make sure it could handle the load.

Try just a battery pack for RX power on the ground, and see if there is any change.

Also, be sure your EPA's are set correctly for the LG. If there is not enough throw in the setting, the LG may be wanting to move intermittently.

I'd look a little further before running to a new radio.

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Old 03-29-2011, 02:09 AM   #3
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Your problem sounds like a Intermediate loss of electrical power, if thats the case, with a 2.4 radio you would have gotten a Brown out and crashed your plane. check all of your electrical Connections, make sure they are not loose. I think that your ESC/ BEC is weak and is cutting out on you.

disconnect the BEC from the ESC, and use a UBEC, they are cheap enough,and with a 2.4 radio, its a Must Have to prevent a brown out situation and a crash. just as a added precaution, make sure the servo wires are not near the receiver, move the receiver away from everything, If that does not help, get a 2.4 radio Hope that helps, Chellie


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Old 03-31-2011, 05:27 PM   #4
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Cheers for the advice all!

I have bought a 4.8v 800mah flight pack (60 grams) and so far range checks with aerial down are good!

Receiver is now in the nose of the model well away from all cables.......see if this also helps.

All i need now are the 20+mph winds to stop so i can see if all is works........
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Old 04-01-2011, 04:20 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Gee View Post
Hi all

I am hopeing someone on this site can come up with a positive result for me as this problem i have is becoming a pain in the backside!!
The problem is this......

I recently purchased the J-Power P-38 with servoless retracts and during the maiden flight i had intermittent glitches with the motors, they were acting as if they were pulsing!?

On the second flight with a different receiver the same problem occured, this time i noticed that it was not really a glitch but what appeared to be lock out from the receiver, no servo/motor response, but only happens momentarily before control is back. There does not seem to be a pattern when this happens and range checks are fine.

Third flight......i used my JR RS77S synthesised receiver which has always been bulletproof but the same problem occured.


On each occasion the aerial has been routed around the model differently, always avoiding servo's, cables etc and lead left dangling behind the model. I originally had a ubec fitted but removed this thinking it was the problem causer but it made no difference.


Could it be time for me to move on to 2.4ghz as i have been told many times its the best for electric flight, although i have flown 9 years electric on 35mhz without a problem till now!

I eagerly await some friendly advice....

cheers
I have the same problem. Lock out no control and then recover. If this is the bec overload, then why dont other flyers with four servos and same rcvr and xmtr and 3cell lipo have a problem?

Bob
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Old 04-01-2011, 04:51 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Gee View Post
Hi all

I am hopeing someone on this site can come up with a positive result for me as this problem i have is becoming a pain in the backside!!
The problem is this......

I recently purchased the J-Power P-38 with servoless retracts and during the maiden flight i had intermittent glitches with the motors, they were acting as if they were pulsing!?

On the second flight with a different receiver the same problem occured, this time i noticed that it was not really a glitch but what appeared to be lock out from the receiver, no servo/motor response, but only happens momentarily before control is back. There does not seem to be a pattern when this happens and range checks are fine.

Third flight......i used my JR RS77S synthesised receiver which has always been bulletproof but the same problem occured.


On each occasion the aerial has been routed around the model differently, always avoiding servo's, cables etc and lead left dangling behind the model. I originally had a ubec fitted but removed this thinking it was the problem causer but it made no difference.


Could it be time for me to move on to 2.4ghz as i have been told many times its the best for electric flight, although i have flown 9 years electric on 35mhz without a problem till now!

I eagerly await some friendly advice....

cheers
Yes,this is the same problem I have. I have repaired my plane after it crashed 4 times only to have it happen again. I am allmost afraid to fly it again. I have several friends using the same equipement that have no problem. I am going to try using a ubec as was suggested.

It would be nice if I could duplicate this problem on the bench but everything works fine. Can anyone help?
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Old 04-01-2011, 05:17 PM   #7
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I have run 4 servo's, 3s lipo on standard esc bec before with no trouble and this is why i have been confused with my current problem........the low winds forecast for tomorrow will hopefuly let me try my new set up out, fingers crossed!
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Old 04-01-2011, 09:35 PM   #8
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The difference is what you think you know, and what you don't know.
Thinking yours should work because others do.
How do you know they are the same?

What is the draw on your system's bec? What is theirs? What is the output on yours, vs theirs. What are the manufacturing tolerances of each piece of equipment?

If you have a servo binding the draw goes up. What might be just borderline on one systems bec with all working correctly, may be over the limits on another when the draw is slightly increased.

If you are drawing power off a single bec, and the esc itself is getting hot due to lack of airflow. it's going to cause you problems.

If you are using both esc's becs, one could be cross feeding the other.

Manufacturing tolerances allow limits above or below the stated spec.
You could have a bec below spec that can't handle a spec draw at it's limits.


Stand alone becs are different too. Linear vs switching. Linear, the higher the voltage input, the lower the amp output. Switching, doesn't matter.

Like stated, take a known good power supply and use it in place of the questionable one. If it works you know your built in system needs closer looking at.


One of the benefits of a watt meter. Hook it up inline between the bec lead and rx.
Will give you the voltage of the bec and also the draw on it as you run everything.
Easily tells you if all is good or not.

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Old 04-01-2011, 11:36 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by k7pyd View Post
Yes,this is the same problem I have. I have repaired my plane after it crashed 4 times only to have it happen again. I am allmost afraid to fly it again. I have several friends using the same equipement that have no problem. I am going to try using a ubec as was suggested.

It would be nice if I could duplicate this problem on the bench but everything works fine. Can anyone help?

I've just check one of my Spektrum AR7000 receivers. I connected it to a variable DC power supply, and dropped the operating voltage down until the receiver quit operating. This receiver responds to low receiver battery voltage by flashing its LED. The minimum voltage on my AR7000 receiver was 3.16 volts DC, far below any safe value for operating a servo. Previous tests on my other AR7000 receivers gave similar results.

So if you ever have a lockout on your system, first thing to check is whether the receiver LED is flashing. (Hopefully the model is still in good enough shape such that receiver power is still on!)

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Old 04-02-2011, 12:07 AM   #10
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I have LOTS of experience with P-38's... I love them, but they are problematic simply because they are twins.

Chellie's post (#3) is correct. Your problem is not your radio, it is a power system problem.

You should do some ground testing. Throttle up to where you would normally fly, and hold the airplane back -- see if to can get it to fail on the ground. When it loses power, check control surfaces and see what's going on.

Does it fail on positve/negative G's? Does it fail after 5 minutes of flight every time? Start collecting some real data to figure this out.

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Old 04-02-2011, 12:36 AM   #11
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Default Glitch/lock out problem

Most esc that I use are 20 amp and have a bec of 5volts and 2 amps. I can not accurrately masure the current but I have read 500ma for each servo.I AM RUNNING 4 servos. two for right and left air using a Y conn. and one each for the rud and elev. I have exchanged thr rcvr, esc and batt .
I should be able to detect 2 amps on my power supp when I power everything up on the bench but I cant. I can see the amp meter wiggle a bit but thats it.

Ok,what I will do is what was suggested and that is use a 5 amp ubec and try that.

I want you to know that you are the first person that I have talked to on this wattflyer. I want to thank you and call you my friend. I was rather surprised to get a e-mail but that told me where to go and you were nice.

Thanks my friend and I will let you know what hppens.
SERVOS===
Originally Posted by Glacier Girl View Post
The difference is what you think you know, and what you don't know.
Thinking yours should work because others do.
How do you know they are the same?

What is the draw on your system's bec? What is theirs? What is the output on yours, vs theirs. What are the manufacturing tolerances of each piece of equipment?

If you have a servo binding the draw goes up. What might be just borderline on one systems bec with all working correctly, may be over the limits on another when the draw is slightly increased.

If you are drawing power off a single bec, and the esc itself is getting hot due to lack of airflow. it's going to cause you problems.

If you are using both esc's becs, one could be cross feeding the other.

Manufacturing tolerances allow limits above or below the stated spec.
You could have a bec below spec that can't handle a spec draw at it's limits.


Stand alone becs are different too. Linear vs switching. Linear, the higher the voltage input, the lower the amp output. Switching, doesn't matter.

Like stated, take a known good power supply and use it in place of the questionable one. If it works you know your built in system needs closer looking at.


One of the benefits of a watt meter. Hook it up inline between the bec lead and rx.
Will give you the voltage of the bec and also the draw on it as you run everything.
Easily tells you if all is good or not.
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Old 04-02-2011, 12:59 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Gee View Post
I recently purchased the J-Power P-38 with servoless retracts and during the maiden flight i had intermittent glitches with the motors, they were acting as if they were pulsing!?

On the second flight with a different receiver the same problem occured, this time i noticed that it was not really a glitch but what appeared to be lock out from the receiver, no servo/motor response, but only happens momentarily before control is back. There does not seem to be a pattern when this happens and range checks are fine.

Third flight......i used my JR RS77S synthesised receiver which has always been bulletproof but the same problem occured.


On each occasion the aerial has been routed around the model differently, always avoiding servo's, cables etc and lead left dangling behind the model. I originally had a ubec fitted but removed this thinking it was the problem causer but it made no difference.


Could it be time for me to move on to 2.4ghz as i have been told many times its the best for electric flight, although i have flown 9 years electric on 35mhz without a problem till now!

I eagerly await some friendly advice....

cheers
Does your model use brushless motors? Or brush motors? I went around and around and around before going to 2.4 Ghz radios with all sorts of problems with radio interference on 72 Mhz and brush type motors. Even had some interference problems with 72 Mhz and an Astroflight brushless Geared 40 motor running on 22 Nicad cells. Did all sorts of investigations using a Tektronix oscilloscope, trying to see how the interference got into the receiver.

Something did show up here. Interference problems were prettly low until I went past a battery supply putting out over 18 Volts DC on those brush motors. Some of them had a range of about 20 feet. With the transmitter antenna fully extended.

Another thing interesting, I did run into situations where range checking was OK, but got into interference problems with the transmitter antenna fully extended at perhaps 500 or 1000 feet away.

The new 2.4 Ghz radios pretty much got rid of interference issues. It's very difficult to generate 2.4 Ghz radio signals accidentally. Radio interference from our motors and ESCs just doesn't go up to 2.4 Ghz.

As others have pointed out in this thread, be very careful of voltage input to your receiver. If you're using a linear voltage regulator on your ESC, overloading them results in these regulators shutting down to protect itself. And you crash. By the time you get to your model, that regulator has cooled down, and will have restarted itself.

Another vote for the uBEC's on your models (uBEC is a switching power supply Battery Elimination Circuit) If you buy the Castle Creations (and a few other brands) ICE ESC, those ICE ESC's use a switching power supply for the receiver.

The Spektrum Receivers such as the AR7000 units are programmed to flash its LED continuously if its internal microcontroller reboots due to low battery voltage during a flight. I've checked one of my AR7000 receivers. It reboots at 3.16 Volts DC, far below what would be considered to be a safe minimum voltage for operating any servos.

Hope this helps.

DennyV
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Old 04-10-2011, 08:46 PM   #13
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Thanks for all the advice but still no joy!

The winds calmed enough today for an outing to the club field with the P-38 but unfortunately the problem has not been resolved!

I have installed an 800mah flight pack and set the receiver right at the front of the model away from all cables/wires and the problem still persists.

Throttle left on low power idle when range checking and starts the stop/start pulsing after 5 metres with aerial down, 25 metres with the aerial extended. I am now thinking that 35mhz receivers are picking up interference from the model somehow and 2.4ghz is the only way to go!
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Old 04-10-2011, 08:51 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Gee View Post
Thanks for all the advice but still no joy!

The winds calmed enough today for an outing to the club field with the P-38 but unfortunately the problem has not been resolved!

I have installed an 800mah flight pack and set the receiver right at the front of the model away from all cables/wires and the problem still persists.

Throttle left on low power idle when range checking and starts the stop/start pulsing after 5 metres with aerial down, 25 metres with the aerial extended. I am now thinking that 35mhz receivers are picking up interference from the model somehow and 2.4ghz is the only way to go!
Interference sounds like the likely culpert. As many have indicated, interference on 2.4 ghz is very rare. Its not easy to "accidentally" generate interference of 2.4 Ghz (70 times higher than 33 Mhz!) from our electric models, or most anything else.

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Old 04-11-2011, 03:07 AM   #15
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Gee

As a shot in the dark, does this happen with more than one flight battery? I understand that the power set on your P38 is completely different from what I am thinking of, but I have had a very similar sounding motor pulse on the micro P51 and SU 26 if I happen to use a battery that is getting too long in the tooth and just is unable to supply the needed power to the motor. I do not get a loss of control until the battery is really run down, just a pulse from the motor similar to what you describe. These batteries still work OK with the low demand aircraft such as the Ember, but not with anything that needs a bit more power.
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Old 04-11-2011, 03:21 AM   #16
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Wait -- you say you're using an 800 mAh flight pack... Is that battery for the receiver only, or are you trying to fly a twin-motor P-38 with an 800 mAh battery?!

What amp draw is your power system pulling at full throttle? What is the wingspan and All-Up-Weight (AUW) of the airplane? What is the "C-rating" of your LiPo?

My guess is that your LiPo should be a 2200 mAh 20C LiPo -- nothing smaller. Even then, you'd be lucky to get a 10 minute flight.

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Old 04-11-2011, 05:10 PM   #17
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The 800mah is receiver battery only.
The P-38 is 1500g, 57 3/4 inch span, 50 amp draw at max throttle.
I am using a 2700mah 3s lipo with a 25c (35c burst) rating so i am within power boundaries, although half throttle is more than adequate for scale flight. Realistically expecting 6 minute flights, bit short but will do me!

Purchased a DX6i today and i have put the receiver in the p-38, let the motors slow idle and walked 35 paces from the model with no motor pulsing what so ever......................could it be the answer!!!!

I will remove the receiver pack tonight and put the ubec back in to save weight and range check again, also removing the retracts as i cannot takeoff/land at our rough grass patch and this baby hand launches with ease.
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:17 PM   #18
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Receiver and retracts are out, ubec back in.
AUW is now 1344 grams which pushes the power out to nearly 170w/lb..........

Off to the field tomorrow for recheck and hopefully, a full, no frolics flight!!
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Old 04-13-2011, 03:22 AM   #19
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AWESOME! Good luck!

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Old 04-13-2011, 11:20 PM   #20
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2.4ghz rules........ No more problems for me! Many thanks for everyone's advice, it has been appreciated.
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Old 04-14-2011, 03:29 AM   #21
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Sweet -- glad to hear it!

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