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Off Topic Chit Chat Get to know other eflight modelers in the WattFlyer community here in this off topic forum. NO politics or religion discussion please (Holiday well wishes are ok)

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Old 04-29-2011, 06:28 PM   #1
Lieutenant Loughead
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Default Thinking of going turbine...

Hey guys. I'm thinking of building a turbine aircraft. I have two requests:

1) What is the least expensive turbine on the market?
2) What are the reasons I should NOT go turbine?

Thanks!

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Old 04-29-2011, 06:54 PM   #2
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Hi
This is a major undertaking
Read over the PDF for the Gas Turbine Waiver
As for an inexpensive turbine ive yet to see one
Check out some of these sites
http://www.waoline.com/detente/hobby/hobbyturbines.htm
http://www.jetcatusa.com/
Ive been looking into them as well as they are the only class of RC aircraft ive yet to own or operate
Take care dear friend
Yours Hank

"When wild the head-wind beat,Thy sovereign Will commanding, Bring them who dare to fly, To a safe landing."
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Old 04-29-2011, 06:58 PM   #3
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Don't know what is the cheapest right now, but for entry level I'd probably find a plane like a Boomerang that is all set up and for sale by someone.

As for reasons not to, I would say having to get a waiver, and possible restrictions/ban in the near future by the FAA. I'd probably wait and see what happens with that first before deciding to take the plunge.

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Old 04-29-2011, 07:39 PM   #4
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I'll second what Pat said on buying an "existing" plane.

What's your experience level at landing fast, heavy aircraft?

Jeff/LAX
(don't panic - I don't land the planes)
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Old 04-29-2011, 07:50 PM   #5
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Hi
Do you have an jet turbine instructor, thats the hardest part for me
Theres no one qualified close to me just so i can get the waiver
Taken from the PDF
The first five solo flights shall be supervised by an experienced turbine pilot. The pilot must instruct
the supervising individual on how to perform an emergency shutdown of the turbine in flight from the
pilotís transmitter and the supervising individual must be empowered by the pilo
t to shut the turbine
down in flight in the event of a loss of control emergency. The following guidelines will apply to the

first five fixed wing flights
Take care dear friend
Yours Hank

"When wild the head-wind beat,Thy sovereign Will commanding, Bring them who dare to fly, To a safe landing."
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Old 04-29-2011, 09:24 PM   #6
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I've also moved this to Off Topic since it is not a discussion about electrics.

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Old 04-30-2011, 01:12 AM   #7
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Thanks Pat -- I wasn't sure where to post it, and was viewing the web site from my tiny little screen on my iPhone...

There are some guys that fly turbines at the two local clubs in town (I do not currently belong to either club). I'm sure I could get someone to spot me on the first five flights.

Experience -- I knew someone would ask that question. I don't know what your definition of "big and fast" is. I have several years of experience with ducted fans, I've flown my Funjet at 132 mph (see the award under my avatar), and I have flown 3 different 40-sized electric aircraft (one is no longer with us after stupidly performing a roll with a tail wind at 15 feet AGL)...

Can I handle a turbine? I don't know -- but I'd like to try. I don't crash very often (I don't take risks), and consider myself a safe pilot (other than performing rolls with a tail wind at 15 feet AGL)... (Not to mention I can fly and land them just fine on Realflight.)

I've seen some turbines advertised in the AMA magazine. It seems like they're out of China or something -- but I'm not sure about prices or reliability... How easy are they to start, tune, and keep running?

Right now, I'm just toying with the idea. It turns out my boss is an RC pilot too, and he just bought my used Stryker (485 flights). We've been talking about speed -- he wants to go 150 mph. I told him if he hits 150 mph, I've got to do 200 mph -- and that got me thinking of turbines...

I'm probably a few years from actually making the jump to turbines -- but I'd like to start learning about them now.

Owner of the UNCLUB flying site and hobby shop in Arcadia, OK.

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Old 04-30-2011, 02:26 AM   #8
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By big and fast - can you consistantly put a heavy bird down on the runway, where you want to in the 40-50 mph zone? Closest thing I can think of to turbine flight is something like a 50-85cc warbird on approach. Think something like a Corsair or a Mustang (they really don't LIKE to land)

Talk to people at the field that fly them (make friends and see if they'll let you fly). The "GSE" for a turbine is pretty inclusive.

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Old 04-30-2011, 02:59 AM   #9
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I have a couple of turbine pilot friends. One of them FREAKS out every time he flies. I am like so do you enjoy this or just want to see people see you fly a turbine? He says he just sees $$$ every time he flies. That is certainly no fun. The other is a barely competent RC pilot. He scares me when he flies a T-28.

Here is a turbine trainer:
http://www.btemodels.com/r54.html

There are several others on the market too.

The question is why? With the EDF's quickly approaching all the capabilities of fuel turbines I am not sure why (other than the sound factor) folks fly them. I guess they just have lots and lots of money and seek that cool factor. And they are cool.

I will save you thousands of dollars. My suggestion - get the Habu (32 size) from eFlite - go fast and see how you like flying high wing loading fast planes. You will be into that about $1200 and they go fast 130+ MPH right out of the box. If you spend a bit more you can go faster.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1308466

I flew the BAE Hawk - it was a terror on landing. A blast in the air if you enjoy turning every few seconds (it was pretty quick). I enjoyed that right up until it was time to land. Then you learned what kind of pilot you are.

With wing loadings in the 40in/oz range the 32 Habu will tell you if you need more. If you do - BVM has the e-Bandit or Electra Jet ARF. They will both go near 200 MPH.

O and at any point why you are looking at the electric high performance EDF models and you gasp a bit at price - Turbines are NOT for you.

Mike
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Old 04-30-2011, 03:07 AM   #10
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Cool

Hi
Its much easier to find a jet instructor then a turbine heli pilot and thats my dilemma
Heres what i would do with a turbine
Do enjoy
Take care
Yours Hank

"When wild the head-wind beat,Thy sovereign Will commanding, Bring them who dare to fly, To a safe landing."
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Old 04-30-2011, 04:43 AM   #11
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No Need to go turbine, Just get yourself a Viper 201 MPH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17G2ntSezoQ&feature=related

I may be getting Older, But I Refuse to grow Up I am Having to much Fun to Grow Up LOL
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Old 04-30-2011, 05:53 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by kenchiroalpha View Post
Hi
Its much easier to find a jet instructor then a turbine heli pilot and thats my dilemma
Heres what i would do with a turbine
Do enjoy
Take care
Yours Hank
I'm NOT complaining, that helo is an amazing piece of engineering. Turbine powered, real counter-rotating rotors. So you'd think retracts would be the easy part???

Back on the subject, I build jets for a living (Mostly APU's, not thrust engines) so I think an RC jet would be awesome, except for the $$$. I guess the cool factor is the attraction.
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Old 04-30-2011, 02:22 PM   #13
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Okay -- a couple of things:

Again, I would like to reiterate the fact that I've been flying EDFs for several years. I think my first EDF flight was 7 years ago (it was an Alfa F-86 Sabre), and I HAVE YET TO CRASH AN EDF.

Currently, I'm flying a 70mm F-5 EDF (nose to tail is about 5 feet, no crashes), a 64mm F-5 EDF (190 flights, and no crashes), and a MiG-29 twin EDF (smaller but it's fast and a real blast to fly, and no crashes).

I also have a 40-sized P-51 Mustang that I have yet to crash.

I've got a FunJet that I've pushed to 132 mph (no crashes). I have a Stryker that I put 489 flights on, and pushed her to 98 mph. The Stryker was crashed ONCE in 489 flights due to a radio lockout (not pilot error).

The EDF jets I fly are about 20 ouces per square foot of wing loading. I honestly don't understand the previously mentioned "40in/oz" number -- that seems like a typo. Maybe you were trying to say 40 ounces per square foot?

As an project engineer, I like to think I approach things with clear logic and I fly like a test pilot (testing systems one by one until we eventually test everything; do not test everything all at once) -- please do not turn this into a "you're a newbie and can't fly a turbine" intervention. I'm reasonably certain I can fly a 200 mph turbine.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the eFlite 32 Habu seems like it's only about $300 (not $1,200) so that is very interesting. If it were really $1,200 I would say that's $1,200 I could put towards my turbine -- but $400 isn't bad. HOWEVER, it's just another large EDF that I already have no problems flying, and 130+ right out of the box doesn't excite me when I've already been 132 mph with no problems.

Yeah, I've looked at the Viper, and it looks like a stick or a powered glider -- and (in my opinion) gliders just don't look cool at all. I'm not only about going fast -- I also want something that LOOKS cool (like an F-5). That being said, I'm perfectly fine with starting out with a "beginner" turbine, and working my way up to an F-5 turbine (see the "project engineer" statement above).

Mike -- you asked a simple and fair question -- WHY? I am happy to give you an honest answer -- because I feel like I've already mastered electric propulsion systems, and I'm ready for the next big thing. I've toyed with the idea of going to a 60-size (or larger) gas powered aircraft, but I'm also toying with the idea of turbines. Based on my "project engineer" statement above, the 60-size gas powered aircraft would be the logical next step -- and I may certainly decide to go that route -- but I want to explore my options at this point. (Exploring options is also part of "testing systems one by one until we eventually test everything" -- it's collecting data to be used at a future time.)

Thanks for your help, and I apologize for the long post.

Owner of the UNCLUB flying site and hobby shop in Arcadia, OK.

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Old 04-30-2011, 02:58 PM   #14
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I guess it failed to come out in my previous post, but what I was saying was, it would be fun and interesting with new challenges and things to learn(fun). Reason enough, isn't it? Isn't that why we're in this hobby? I would be doing it, too(Turbine), except it's more money than I can invest in a hobby now, and the field I'm at now has power lines too near one side of the runway to be comfortable for big, fast planes. If you can make the investment, go for it!
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Old 04-30-2011, 04:49 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Lieutenant Loughead View Post

The EDF jets I fly are about 20 ouces per square foot of wing loading. I honestly don't understand the previously mentioned "40in/oz" number -- that seems like a typo. Maybe you were trying to say 40 ounces per square foot?
Yes - sorry for the typo. What is the highest wing loading plane you have flown? That is a HUGE element of fast heavy models.

No the NUMBER is not a typo. The Habu 32 tips tips the scales at 7-7.4lbs. With a 392sq/in wing that is 41.44 oz/sqft - 43.49 oz/sqft. That is a cube loading of 25+. These are airplanes that DEMAND full attention especially when landing. They are no issue when up to speed, but when you try to slow them they will stall at the drop of a hat.

Originally Posted by Lieutenant Loughead View Post

As an project engineer, I like to think I approach things with clear logic and I fly like a test pilot (testing systems one by one until we eventually test everything; do not test everything all at once) -- please do not turn this into a "you're a newbie and can't fly a turbine" intervention. I'm reasonably certain I can fly a 200 mph turbine.
Speed is one thing (and yes it is something you need to get used too). But the wing loading thing above will kick you. How much can you slow - how long is your runway, are there obstacles to clear, how much flap (you MUST use flaps on models with these loadings or you will land way fast).

Originally Posted by Lieutenant Loughead View Post

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the eFlite 32 Habu seems like it's only about $300 (not $1,200) so that is very interesting. If it were really $1,200 I would say that's $1,200 I could put towards my turbine -- but $400 isn't bad. HOWEVER, it's just another large EDF that I already have no problems flying, and 130+ right out of the box doesn't excite me when I've already been 132 mph with no problems.
Nope your wrong. That is the airframe cost. The rest is ESC, Motor, batts, servos, retracts, RX. $300 is airplane, the other stuff adds up to $900 or so.

Originally Posted by Lieutenant Loughead View Post

Mike -- you asked a simple and fair question -- WHY? I am happy to give you an honest answer -- because I feel like I've already mastered electric propulsion systems, and I'm ready for the next big thing. I've toyed with the idea of going to a 60-size (or larger) gas powered aircraft, but I'm also toying with the idea of turbines. Based on my "project engineer" statement above, the 60-size gas powered aircraft would be the logical next step -- and I may certainly decide to go that route -- but I want to explore my options at this point. (Exploring options is also part of "testing systems one by one until we eventually test everything" -- it's collecting data to be used at a future time.)

Thanks for your help, and I apologize for the long post.
You have not (assumption on my part) mastered the other element of some EDF's the high wing loading thing. 20oz/ft is not going to teach you how much, or little you can slow down a 40oz/ft model. Combine speed and higher loadings that impact turns and landing speeds have you with your hands full. I lost the EDF Hawk (it was a 30 oz/ft in a turn where I got too slow in a turn, it snapped and with a small fast model that means you are done.

That said - it is certainly doable, and something you can learn.

Do you have the stomach to risk $6k every time you go in the air with your Turbine?

Mike
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Old 04-30-2011, 05:46 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Lieutenant Loughead View Post
Hey guys. I'm thinking of building a turbine aircraft. I have two requests:

1) What is the least expensive turbine on the market?
2) What are the reasons I should NOT go turbine?

Thanks!
Our club has four "turbine" members. One has been flying models of all kinds since the late 1950's, and is one of the best pilots in our club. He has been flying turbines now for about 6 years, and has crashed 3 or 4 of them, generally because of equipment or radio failure. Not much is left. (He now owns a top of the line JR 2.4 Ghz radio, much improvement over 72 Mhz)

He's gone through more than a few turbine engines, replacing bearings $$$$, Engine ECU's $$$, landing gear $$$, fuel pumps $$$.

Landing a 40 pound model with landing speeds of perhaps 45 mph on a grass field can bend up landing gears.

One other club member had his wing disintegrate in level flight at half throttle, costing him some $3000. The plane mfg went out of business.

Bottom line before spending ANY money on turbines, really check out what works, who has repair facilities in the USA, which landing gear can actually land the model without bending up, you name it.

Wet turbines can be expensive to fly and maintain.

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Old 05-01-2011, 01:54 AM   #17
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from someone how has a waiver ,

turbine planes can be anything. speed and weight are reliative. AV8r, DV8r, shockjets,etc are as easy to fly as anysport plane.(and grass capable)

unless your in it for speed and scale they can be great planes. the computer tunes and runns the motor for you. if anything goes wrong it shuts down.

i found that the karosene is cheap but the oil is 30+ a qt. and you burn that and 5gal as quick as any fuels. so its more but you burn more.

i enjoyed my turbines, but you do have a lot wrapped up in a single plane.

simply put if its what you want, you wont be happy till u get one.

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Old 05-01-2011, 05:50 AM   #18
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First of all, if you want to fly turbines and can afford it, then I say go for it

That said, none of the models you listed or your flying experience has prepared you to fly turbines.

60 sized glow models will not prepare you to fly turbines.

Try a 60 size Mustang, then double or triple its weight and put a 240 on it with a tuned pipe and fly that for a while That will give you an idea on landing but not how the power curve works.

rcers has given you good advice and made some excellent observations about flying planes with heavy wing loadings.

You need to get up to the 30-40 pound range with FAST birds that MUST be flown fast all the time and "on the wing" rather than on the prop.

Every aspect of the flight is different from how soon you rotate to when you turn final to the approach angle and how sharp your turns are to how long the rollout is. With the lite birds you've been flying, you always had power to bail from an emergency or a short approach. If you get behind the power curve on the turbine, you're in the dirt short of the runway in a heart beat.

Id go spend the day with some of those turbine flyers in your area and get some first hand advice and watch everything closely.

I think I need a signature.
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Old 05-01-2011, 06:49 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by tampaflyer View Post
from someone how has a waiver ,

turbine planes can be anything. speed and weight are reliative. AV8r, DV8r, shockjets,etc are as easy to fly as anysport plane.(and grass capable)

unless your in it for speed and scale they can be great planes. the computer tunes and runns the motor for you. if anything goes wrong it shuts down.

i found that the karosene is cheap but the oil is 30+ a qt. and you burn that and 5gal as quick as any fuels. so its more but you burn more.

i enjoyed my turbines, but you do have a lot wrapped up in a single plane.

simply put if its what you want, you wont be happy till u get one.
Hi
I agree 100%
Heres an example of a small and easily handled Turbine
Do enjoy
Its not as difficult as some seem to think or make it out to be
Its what you want to put in and want to get out of it
You could go for a full scale F-14 with twin turbines and wing sweeping for example and that would be a big heavy fast bird or just a bare trainer which would be the same as any other aircraft just with a turbine for power
If the LT or i do ever go for it the training would get us up to speed with what ever the craft we choose and if we couldnt pass the tests we wouldnt be able to operate them in the first place any ways
So what he can or cannot fly at this moment is irrevelvent
Take care dear friend
Yours Hank

"When wild the head-wind beat,Thy sovereign Will commanding, Bring them who dare to fly, To a safe landing."
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Old 05-01-2011, 02:44 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by kenchiroalpha View Post
Its not as difficult as some seem to think or make it out to be
Its what you want to put in and want to get out of it

Yours Hank
He wants a "go fast" model. I agree you can find trainers but he has mastered that and wants to jump to the "fun" stuff.

When you get to go fast Turbines you get high wing loadings and fast landings. Not the sedade world of Turbine trainers.

And I agree if you have the bucks (spending that kind of money for me takes it out of the hobby, fun element, I would only see $$,$$$ flying around ) for a turbine and a place to fly them (those are in short supply too) I too say go for it.

Sadly the Turbine guys around here lost us a PREMO flying spot in the giant parking lot of the Texas motor speedway. Many landowners don't want the liability of the Turbines. But that is another discussion.

Mike
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Old 05-01-2011, 03:11 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
He wants a "go fast" model. I agree you can find trainers but he has mastered that and wants to jump to the "fun" stuff.

When you get to go fast Turbines you get high wing loadings and fast landings. Not the sedade world of Turbine trainers.

And I agree if you have the bucks (spending that kind of money for me takes it out of the hobby, fun element, I would only see $$,$$$ flying around ) for a turbine and a place to fly them (those are in short supply too) I too say go for it.

Sadly the Turbine guys around here lost us a PREMO flying spot in the giant parking lot of the Texas motor speedway. Many landowners don't want the liability of the Turbines. But that is another discussion.

Mike
Hi Mike
If you reread post 13 Lt states he would start with a Turbine trainer and move up only as his skills progress and permit him to move on up to more taxing aircraft to fly
And even the trainers can hit quite high speeds compared to electric and IC powered birds
Take care dear friend
Yours Hank

"When wild the head-wind beat,Thy sovereign Will commanding, Bring them who dare to fly, To a safe landing."
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Old 05-01-2011, 03:15 PM   #22
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Hank his end goal is a go fast model. That is why he yawned at the 130mph Habu EDF I recommended.

At any rate there is no question there is a progression with either EDF or Turbine models.

Mike
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Old 05-01-2011, 03:35 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
Hank his end goal is a go fast model. That is why he yawned at the 130mph Habu EDF I recommended.

At any rate there is no question there is a progression with either EDF or Turbine models.

Mike
Hi Mike
I think i will give a Habu a go my self, as you stated she seems a good one to try out before going fixed wing turbine as this post indicates
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/show...6&postcount=13
She looks quite sharp as well
Take care dear friend
Yours Hank

"When wild the head-wind beat,Thy sovereign Will commanding, Bring them who dare to fly, To a safe landing."
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Old 05-01-2011, 03:42 PM   #24
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Hank - the Habu 32 is an excellent plane looks and flight. My field is grass so I don't have one, and the landing speeds take most of the fun out.

Another great option is the foam EDF Habu version. Very slightly smaller and is supremely well behaved as it tips the scales at about half the weight of the glass one. Grass fields are not an issue with this one since it does not have retracts.
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...ProdID=PKZ7080

Mike
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Old 05-01-2011, 03:57 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
Hank - the Habu 32 is an excellent plane looks and flight. My field is grass so I don't have one, and the landing speeds take most of the fun out.

Another great option is the foam EDF Habu version. Very slightly smaller and is supremely well behaved as it tips the scales at about half the weight of the glass one. Grass fields are not an issue with this one since it does not have retracts.
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...ProdID=PKZ7080

Mike
Hi Mike
Thanks for all the info
Looks like one is on my wish list
Take care dear friend
Yours Hank

"When wild the head-wind beat,Thy sovereign Will commanding, Bring them who dare to fly, To a safe landing."
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