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Old 05-31-2011, 06:30 PM   #1
FlyingBrick50
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Exclamation Ground to Flight Transition

HeyFellow Wattflyers

Can anyone give me some tips when it comes to the transition from ground to flight? What I mean is I'm having alot of trouble switching from the left stick(rudder) to the right stick(ailerons), am I doing it wrong, do I need to use a mix on my tx for more rudder control on the ground and if so how will that change her inflight control? Crosswinds are a nightmare, as long as I takeoff into the wind I'm normally fine! This newbe is missing something here!

Signed Help

Shes a GeeBee and I'm using a comp jr tx

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Old 05-31-2011, 07:35 PM   #2
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Perhaps you're trying to take off too early with the tail still on the ground.

I know it's difficult to do, and takes quite a bit of practice, but a tail draggers tail should be up and level well before lift off. Often on grass that's even more difficult as we don't want a model nosing over so lend to hold some up elevator, usuall for too long.

The model should be well into flying speed and level before lift off, but if she sits nose high then the wings AoA is likely to 'lift' the plane off a little early.

That slightly lower speed and higher AoA can mean the ailerons just are not 'biting' properly once airborne, they can also give adverse yaw a slower speeds.

Now I'm not a fan of flight sims, (other than a bit of fun on a wet or windy day), but flying a helicopter on a sim really teaches you about 'rudder/aileron' coordination, (or whatever a heli's controls are called). With a heli you have to fly both continusly, the more you fly one the better you become.

There is a free sim on the net to download called FMS, a search should find it.

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Old 05-31-2011, 07:41 PM   #3
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Doesn't sound like you are doing it wrong other than the crosswind comment.. You should not really have to take off crosswind unless your take off strip is very narrow?

You soon get used to using rudder to steer on the ground.

Steve
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Old 05-31-2011, 08:31 PM   #4
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I think it's just something you have to learn. Rudder is to yaw, ailerons to roll.
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Old 05-31-2011, 10:53 PM   #5
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Red face yes I do understand and I just had a hard drive crash, I had clear

Originally Posted by eflight-ray View Post
Perhaps you're trying to take off too early with the tail still on the ground.

I know it's difficult to do, and takes quite a bit of practice, but a tail draggers tail should be up and level well before lift off. Often on grass that's even more difficult as we don't want a model nosing over so lend to hold some up elevator, usuall for too long.

The model should be well into flying speed and level before lift off, but if she sits nose high then the wings AoA is likely to 'lift' the plane off a little early.

That slightly lower speed and higher AoA can mean the ailerons just are not 'biting' properly once airborne, they can also give adverse yaw a slower speeds.

Now I'm not a fan of flight sims, (other than a bit of fun on a wet or windy day), but flying a helicopter on a sim really teaches you about 'rudder/aileron' coordination, (or whatever a heli's controls are called). With a heli you have to fly both continusly, the more you fly one the better you become.

There is a free sim on the net to download called FMS, a search should find it.
yes I do understand and you hit the nail on the head right there ya did,........I just had a hard drive crash, I had clearview flight sim now its gone as well, anyway thats a different post! I can taxi around great it's that split second or so were the tail is floating prior to takeoff (main gear). The GeeBee is a very short field aircraft on takeoff, landing at least for me she needs more room and it happens very quickly, up elevator as you say probably it. I'm getting enough airspeed,....... once shes off the ground its go time. I have to admit she is a handful

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Old 05-31-2011, 11:47 PM   #6
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Which GeeBee? (I know the R2 is not a learning plane - 'cept maybe "learn to repair" )

Biggest thing with any tail dragger (and really an issue with a short nosed tail dragger) is letting the plane actually get the tail flying before you start inputting any kinds of correction - especially rudder.

I have a 1/4 scale Clip Wing Monocoupe that reminds me of that every chance it gets......

Jeff/LAX
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Old 06-01-2011, 12:04 AM   #7
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Talking GeeBee R2

Originally Posted by Old Fart View Post
Which GeeBee? (I know the R2 is not a learning plane - 'cept maybe "learn to repair" )

Biggest thing with any tail dragger (and really an issue with a short nosed tail dragger) is letting the plane actually get the tail flying before you start inputting any kinds of correction - especially rudder.

I have a 1/4 scale Clip Wing Monocoupe that reminds me of that every chance it gets......
I understand I need airspeed, she is not my first aileron aircraft just the first low wing (short coupled) bird,...

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60119

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60618

Thanks everyone for your Help,.....

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Old 06-01-2011, 02:19 AM   #8
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Alt view:

First plane should be very durable. More time flying, less time repairing.


A successful first plane is one you outgrow.



Clint

Current - Ventura, HZ SuperCub-Freedom-Swift-AB3, PZ Typhoon, T-28 Trojan, Radian, AeroAce Biplane
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Old 06-01-2011, 08:37 PM   #9
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If 'she's a handful' once airborne, you could try moving the CG slightly forward, (adding nose weight, or move the battery forward).

Also if your Tx does it, trying some exponential on the elevator and ailerons could calm it down a bit.

Ray in Wales
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:19 PM   #10
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Lightbulb Crosswind Takeoff

Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Doesn't sound like you are doing it wrong other than the crosswind comment.. You should not really have to take off crosswind unless your take off strip is very narrow?

You soon get used to using rudder to steer on the ground.

Steve
Well all I know is the aircraft I've been flying (yes, 3 channel, 4 channel ie HawkSky) I can do crosswind landings and take offs, real aircraft do it.I thought/hoping maybe someone here could shed some light on how they learned to deal with it (transition from dragging the tail to running on main gear prior to takeoff), any tricks of the trade type things?
The Flying field (Gooney Birds Field, Flo SC) is plenty big and taking off into the wind is not an issue in regards to the runway.
The GeeBee R2 is a short coupled low wing aircraft (fantastic bird) and yes I'm will be learning art of RC Aircraft Flight for the rest of my life, I hope too anyway!!! I'm just saying lol,.....any thoughts are appriciated later



I know,..........
Practice, Practice, Practice

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Old 06-03-2011, 01:40 AM   #11
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I am not an expert! If you have a smooth, wide rwy, grass or pavement, try adding power slowly and smoothly. I do that and only use aileron, no rudder. I get nice scale takeoff. NOW if there is a cross wind, all bets are off!
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Old 06-03-2011, 06:46 AM   #12
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Try a gyro on the rudder for crosswind takeoffs.

Kevin
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Old 06-03-2011, 07:47 PM   #13
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Thumbs up Gyro

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Try a gyro on the rudder for crosswind takeoffs.
Now that would be cool,..............

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Old 06-03-2011, 07:54 PM   #14
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Thumbs up Throttle up

Originally Posted by dkrhardy View Post
I am not an expert! If you have a smooth, wide rwy, grass or pavement, try adding power slowly and smoothly. I do that and only use aileron, no rudder. I get nice scale takeoff. NOW if there is a cross wind, all bets are off!
Now you have something there, I do tend to run my birds hard on takeoff!
It's a bad habit from having to use stol for so long, not having the space or surface conditions to my liking, I push lift off
Now I am a member of a local club (GooneyBirds) and can fly at my field (5 miles away). It will make a differance I believe?

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Old 06-03-2011, 08:18 PM   #15
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My byron 1/3 scale pitts on take off would try to eat its own tail .I would have to hold rudder after lift off for a bit till the engine tork slowed down. Try advancing the throttle slower and it will have less tork on take off. I just got use to it on short fuse airplanes with big motors . joe
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:56 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by FlyingBrick50 View Post
Well all I know is the aircraft I've been flying (yes, 3 channel, 4 channel ie HawkSky) I can do crosswind landings and take offs, real aircraft do it.I thought/hoping maybe someone here could shed some light on how they learned to deal with it (transition from dragging the tail to running on main gear prior to takeoff), any tricks of the trade type things?
The Flying field (Gooney Birds Field, Flo SC) is plenty big and taking off into the wind is not an issue in regards to the runway.
The GeeBee R2 is a short coupled low wing aircraft (fantastic bird) and yes I'm will be learning art of RC Aircraft Flight for the rest of my life, I hope too anyway!!! I'm just saying lol,.....any thoughts are appriciated later



I know,..........
Practice, Practice, Practice
I'll give it a shot - although your Practice, Practice, Practice quote is pretty much on the mark

Flew my 1/8 F6F Hellcat over the weekend, actually concentrated on what I was doing with my fingers while I was taking off - hope this helps. Although the bird is nitro (YS120), as my dad would say - "physics is physics". Takeoff at our field is right to left.

Ok - taxi out - rudder on high rate. Even though our runway is 50' wide, I like nice tight turns. Taxi to where I'm going to take off from, drop to idle, switch rudder to low rate. Verify elevator and ailerons on low rate, flaps are up.

Input some right rudder (I know the plane will want to break left with torque) - slowly advance throttle. As plane picks up speed, increase right rudder to compensate.

As plane lifts off, apply some right aileron, reduce/eliminate left rudder. Gear up, fly like a bat out of hell

Same process for crosswind. The tail will "windmill" with the wind. You'd be surprised at how many people try and compensate "backwards", thinking the plane will come towards you if the wind is coming towards you. Except for light parkflyers, the wind will be pushing the tail towards you (and the nose the other way)

Landings are similar, but as the engine is almost at idle, not much rudder correction. If you have to go around and apply power and have a lot of power to weight, or lots of pitch - be prepared with that rudder again.

Jeff/LAX
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Old 06-03-2011, 10:09 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Old Fart View Post
I'll give it a shot - although your Practice, Practice, Practice quote is pretty much on the mark

Flew my 1/8 F6F Hellcat over the weekend, actually concentrated on what I was doing with my fingers while I was taking off - hope this helps. Although the bird is nitro (YS120), as my dad would say - "physics is physics". Takeoff at our field is right to left.

Ok - taxi out - rudder on high rate. Even though our runway is 50' wide, I like nice tight turns. Taxi to where I'm going to take off from, drop to idle, switch rudder to low rate. Verify elevator and ailerons on low rate, flaps are up.

Input some right rudder (I know the plane will want to break left with torque) - slowly advance throttle. As plane picks up speed, increase right rudder to compensate.

As plane lifts off, apply some right aileron, reduce/eliminate left rudder. Gear up, fly like a bat out of hell

Same process for crosswind. The tail will "windmill" with the wind. You'd be surprised at how many people try and compensate "backwards", thinking the plane will come towards you if the wind is coming towards you. Except for light parkflyers, the wind will be pushing the tail towards you (and the nose the other way)

Landings are similar, but as the engine is almost at idle, not much rudder correction. If you have to go around and apply power and have a lot of power to weight, or lots of pitch - be prepared with that rudder again.
After i learned how to fly i would just practiced landings and take offs for a year or so, and doing funflys to compete in the club. I used to be able to do one wheel touch and goes no matter witch way the wind was blowing down the runway . But age and poor eye site has slowed me a bit but i still land and take off better than most all it takes is practice. I see guys tearing up the skys and land like it was their first flight . kinda ruins the moment.lmao OLD fart is spot on about take offs and landings with a tail dragger.joe
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Old 06-04-2011, 06:01 PM   #18
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100% agree! It's not the ground to sky transition that gets you, it's the sky to ground one!
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Old 06-04-2011, 06:46 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by FlyingBrick50 View Post
Now that would be cool,..............
Works great Use them on all my big tail draggers like this 8' WS Sr.Telemaster. Agree with the the others that a scale takeoff with slow throttle advance makes life a lot easier.


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Old 06-04-2011, 09:08 PM   #20
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Question gyro

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Works great Use them on all my big tail draggers like this 8' WS Sr.Telemaster. Agree with the the others that a scale takeoff with slow throttle advance makes life a lot easier.
What type of gyro are you using, you don't want a head lock style do you?

Thanks to all,

I just got the Fairchild F22 ready for another run at it and will let you know the results.

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Old 06-04-2011, 09:56 PM   #21
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Its a $12 HK401b with both HH & Rate mode

On both the DX7/8 I use the flap 3 position switch.

NORM = 0 = OFF

MID = 90 = HH

LAND = -90 = RATE

Using 0/80/-80 also seems to work fine, not sure what the lower limit might be. Right now I am in the if it ain't broke, don't fix it mode.

HH is used for takeoff then the gyro is shut down with the wheels lift off.

Kevin
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Old 06-08-2011, 11:20 PM   #22
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Thumbs up Very good advice

Originally Posted by road king 97 View Post
After i learned how to fly i would just practiced landings and take offs for a year or so, and doing funflys to compete in the club. I used to be able to do one wheel touch and goes no matter witch way the wind was blowing down the runway . But age and poor eye site has slowed me a bit but i still land and take off better than most all it takes is practice. I see guys tearing up the skys and land like it was their first flight . kinda ruins the moment.lmao OLD fart is spot on about take offs and landings with a tail dragger.joe
Hey Folks
I have 12 flights @ my local field now since reading your responses on the subject (Ground to Flight Transition) and am glad to report excellent results. Now if I can just get her to land without bending the LG struts, hey in my defence it's a GeeBee, the wind was blowing 15 mph.
I could not stop flying ran out of daylight,....

Thanks again, rolling on the throttle and having the space to do so helps

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Old 06-09-2011, 12:01 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by FlyingBrick50 View Post
Well all I know is the aircraft I've been flying (yes, 3 channel, 4 channel ie HawkSky) I can do crosswind landings and take offs, real aircraft do it.
Full size aircraft do crosswind landings and take offs only because they have no option because real runways are very long and for practicality/cost purposes tend not to run in 'every direction'.. So they can not be assured of landing and taking off directly into wind.. if they could, they would.

Also real planes fly in the exact same air as we expect our models to fly in. For example take a 15mph wind, based on a simple linear scale then for a 1/6 scale model plane a 15mph wind is equivalent to a 60mph wind in the full size plane world. Now you would not find many full size planes trying to take off or land, let alone take off or land crosswind, in a 60mph wind... Would you?

Add to that the fact that real planes have a range of instruments that feed the pilot with (as a minimum) such valuable information as airspeed, rate of descent, altitude, etc etc.. on models we have to make do with 'that looks about right' for our landing approaches.

Steve
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Old 06-09-2011, 01:00 AM   #24
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Thumbs up Thanks

Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Full size aircraft do crosswind landings and take offs only because they have no option because real runways are very long and for practicality/cost purposes tend not to run in 'every direction'.. So they can not be assured of landing and taking off directly into wind.. if they could, they would.

Also real planes fly in the exact same air as we expect our models to fly in. For example take a 15mph wind, based on a simple linear scale then for a 1/6 scale model plane a 15mph wind is equivalent to a 60mph wind in the full size plane world. Now you would not find many full size planes trying to take off or land, let alone take off or land crosswind, in a 60mph wind... Would you?

Add to that the fact that real planes have a range of instruments that feed the pilot with (as a minimum) such valuable information as airspeed, rate of descent, altitude, etc etc.. on models we have to make do with 'that looks about right' for our landing approaches.

Steve
I understand, and agree with your statements, the object of the discussion was to learn to use the rudder,....
Thanks for the Help, information is a good thing

Vertical landings are sweet

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Old 06-09-2011, 12:38 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by FlyingBrick50 View Post
Hey Folks
I have 12 flights @ my local field now since reading your responses on the subject (Ground to Flight Transition) and am glad to report excellent results. Now if I can just get her to land without bending the LG struts, hey in my defence it's a GeeBee, the wind was blowing 15 mph.
I could not stop flying ran out of daylight,....

Thanks again, rolling on the throttle and having the space to do so helps
If you're bending the landing gear on touchdown you're probably hitting the ground awfully hard. That usually means you've run out of airspeed too high.
You'll have to fly the plane closer to the ground before flaring for the landing.

Now the problem is the wind, 15 MPH is a bit of a breeze. You'll spend quite a bit of time reacting to what your airplane did because the wind bounced it around.
You'll be reacting to the planes actions rather than controlling the plane and it reacting to you. Kind of like the tail wagging the dog.

On the plus side, if you have fast reactions, as long as the plane holds together you'll get good pretty fast.

If you're serious about learning how to properly land a plane, pick your days or wait until the wind dies down, or use a more forgiving plane on windy days.
Learn how to make a consistent controlled pattern and get the plane close to the ground before leveling off and actually let the plane settle on to the runway.

This type of landing won't be as amusing to the spectators, but the plane will last longer and you'll enjoy them more.
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