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Old 06-04-2011, 08:17 PM   #1
Mysterious
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Lightbulb Plane advice needed (acrobatic/3D)

Ok, I need some plane puchase advice...

I have this 40' extra foamy profile...
http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id...23&pid=V086484

I'm not a perfect flyer but I can fly it with confidence, take off & land reasonably well, and in the air I can do some nice turning, rolls, flips... not super smooth but pretty good.... overall I like it cause I can slow fly and do some basic 3D...... its a good learner or spring rust remover so I can get confidence with minimal fear...

I HAD one of these but wrecked it on take-off today...
http://www.e-fliterc.com/Products/De...ProdID=EFL1150
It was really touchy even with the rates turned down to half and the CG I never liked, the efite motor I had on it just made it really nose heavy.... and I think as a 32 incher it obviously had left wing surface...thus harder to slow fly and wind affected it easily.... and the foam fuselage is so fragile the slightest bang damages it.... a reason I'm leaning AWAY from Airfoliz presently...


So since I destroyed the 2nd one I have a Rx in need of a plane ... I could move the eflite 400 motor and electrics to a new foamy... but I'm also willing just to sell them off and put the $ towards a new plane....


Eventually I'd lke to move to this Edge 540 as my main good plane...
http://www.electrifly.com/parkflyers/gpma1550.html

My worry is though that I think I need at least 1 more year with a lot of air time before investing in a nice balsa like that......

*********************

So, I'm looking for perspective full fuselage candidates that are acrobatic/3D capable but are maybe a bit more durable to learn on with a decent price point... my thoughts for options are:

e-flite Carbon-Z
http://www.e-fliterc.com/Products/De...rodID=EFL10080

parkzone Extra 300
http://www.parkzone.com/Products/Def...ProdID=PKZ5175

Or something similar ... SUGGESTIONS???

I'm leaning toward 40 inch wing span for transportation ease... absolutely no bigger than 50 inch........ has to be ELECTRIC.. quick build time... durable... aerobatic/3d capable.... extra/edge/yak styles are high on my interests for looks

Can anyone comment on the quality of the 2 planes above or suggest a similar better buy?
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Old 06-04-2011, 08:28 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Mysterious View Post
Ok, I need some plane puchase advice...

I have this 40' extra foamy profile...
http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id...23&pid=V086484

I'm not a perfect flyer but I can fly it with confidence, take off & land reasonably well, and in the air I can do some nice turning, rolls, flips... not super smooth but pretty good.... overall I like it cause I can slow fly and do some basic 3D...... its a good learner or spring rust remover so I can get confidence with minimal fear...

I HAD one of these but wrecked it on take-off today...
http://www.e-fliterc.com/Products/De...ProdID=EFL1150
It was really touchy even with the rates turned down to half and the CG I never liked, the efite motor I had on it just made it really nose heavy.... and I think as a 32 incher it obviously had left wing surface...thus harder to slow fly and wind affected it easily.... and the foam fuselage is so fragile the slightest bang damages it.... a reason I'm leaning AWAY from Airfoliz presently...


So since I destroyed the 2nd one I have a Rx in need of a plane ... I could move the eflite 400 motor and electrics to a new foamy... but I'm also willing just to sell them off and put the $ towards a new plane....


Eventually I'd lke to move to this Edge 540 as my main good plane...
http://www.electrifly.com/parkflyers/gpma1550.html

My worry is though that I think I need at least 1 more year with a lot of air time before investing in a nice balsa like that......

*********************

So, I'm looking for perspective full fuselage candidates that are acrobatic/3D capable but are maybe a bit more durable to learn on with a decent price point... my thoughts for options are:

e-flite Carbon-Z
http://www.e-fliterc.com/Products/De...rodID=EFL10080

parkzone Extra 300
http://www.parkzone.com/Products/Def...ProdID=PKZ5175

Or something similar ... SUGGESTIONS???

I'm leaning toward 40 inch wing span for transportation ease... absolutely no bigger than 50 inch........ has to be ELECTRIC.. quick build time... durable... aerobatic/3d capable.... extra/edge/yak styles are high on my interests for looks

Can anyone comment on the quality of the 2 planes above or suggest a similar better buy?
I have never flown the Z, but have heard that the quality is horrible, particularly the plastic motor mount and servos. I've seen several with the fuse cracked in half behind the canopy. I have the Extra 300 and it is without a doubt the worst "3D" flyer I've owned. Total brick.

Here are three superb balsa and ply choices, but they are ARFs not RTFs. Balsa and ply is many times stronger and more resilient than foam in a crash. Decked out with top quality electronics, these will run you about the same amount of money as the beginner models above. Ironically since these are precision flyers perfectly assembled, they are a lot easier to fly in high demand 3D and also in sport mode. I think it is well worth investing day or two in the ARF build to own such superb flyers:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXMUW7&P=7
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXAAVS&P=ML
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXMUX5&P=7

If you are a Tower member (I have no affiliation), you no doubt have a couple of 15-20% off coupon codes stashed in your email inbox, plus the standard free shipping makes any of these an excellent deal.

Of the three, for starting in serious 3D, I would go with the 41" Yak-54, based on the price and its feather light wing loading. It is so airy that you can consistently bend a hover over onto its side without losing any altitude. The only caveat being that it is the only one with a permanently attached wing. The other two have wings that detach in halves.
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Old 06-04-2011, 09:41 PM   #3
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hmmmmmmm... thanks for the opinion....

Do you think there'd be a big flight difference between the Yak 54 & Edge 540? You mentioned wing loading... lower wing loading makes a better slow flyer or 3D or...? It that a big difference between the 2?

The reason I ask is I painted up my profile foamy in the pattern of the Edge using black & yellow.... big contrasts for easy seeing in the sky... the paint scheme of the Yak seems like it might be difficult to tell orientation in the sjy at a distance... the Edge colour scheme seems much easier to see.

Thoughts?
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Old 06-04-2011, 10:41 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Mysterious View Post
hmmmmmmm... thanks for the opinion....

Do you think there'd be a big flight difference between the Yak 54 & Edge 540? You mentioned wing loading... lower wing loading makes a better slow flyer or 3D or...? It that a big difference between the 2?

The reason I ask is I painted up my profile foamy in the pattern of the Edge using black & yellow.... big contrasts for easy seeing in the sky... the paint scheme of the Yak seems like it might be difficult to tell orientation in the sjy at a distance... the Edge colour scheme seems much easier to see.

Thoughts?
For post-stall 3D aerobatics, the lower the wing loading the better. It makes a big difference controlling slow speed stuff. For precision pattern aerobatics, you still want low wing loading, but you can carve smoother curves with a little more mass. Also, acceptable wing loading figures scale up with the model's scale, since a sq foot of wing becomes less significant at larger scales.

The 41" GP Edge 540 has a design wing loading of about 12 oz/ft, the 41" GP Yak-54 comes in under 10 oz/ft. Compare those to the 41" PZ Extra 300's 19.5 oz wing loading.

The Y54 is more tossable, friendly and forgiving at slow speeds. But it is more challenging to do huge aerobatics and maintain smooth curves because you have to fly it the whole time, tracing each line in the sky instead of setting the sticks and letting momentum do the rest.

You are right that the Yak-54's color scheme is too similar right side up and upside down, while the Edge scheme has excellent contrast. Neither model is huge, so contrast is a good thing. I added red checkerboard to the bottom of my Yak-54, but it's only about a 30% solution in the air.

My 50" GP Yak-55M came in at 14.8 oz/sq ft, the 48" Carbon Z advertises 16.5 oz/sq ft.

When deciding, it is also worth noting that the span difference is cubed in three dimensions when figuring the volume/mass difference of a model, so a 41" model is only 55% the size of a 50" model, and a 48" model is only 88% of the size of a 50" model.


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Old 06-04-2011, 11:32 PM   #5
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I had the GP edge. Not a bad flying plane but in that size the 3dhs 42inch slick is a much better performer. It 3ds much easier and smoother (though its out of stock until next month as its getting some updates done to it) AJ changed his scheme and all.

3dhs junky
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:33 AM   #6
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How about a PA Addiction??? i love mine and she's as wild or tame as you fly her,, I fly a mess of 3/d'er's and this one fills your bill,
if you hadn't said full-fuse the E-flight edge BP's the best as most rock solid 3/d'er I've ever owned ( have two), theres the Addiction X that's a little bigger and look the same
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Old 06-05-2011, 01:40 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by losifanatic View Post
I had the GP edge. Not a bad flying plane but in that size the 3dhs 42inch slick is a much better performer. It 3ds much easier and smoother (though its out of stock until next month as its getting some updates done to it) AJ changed his scheme and all.
I agree the GP Edge is a better pattern/high speed knife. It's wings are sharp with a thin foil. Makes great sounds in the air! I've heard great things about the Slick. Can't go wrong with a Yak either.
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Old 06-05-2011, 03:31 AM   #8
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@Losi... I'll look at 3DHS, thanks


@Steve
- Never seen a PA Addiction before... it looks nice... but my concern with it is it looks like the efite edge material, and the eflite Edge is that covering see-through material... it looks flimsy, easily torn, and my stuff always seems to get banged around a bit so I'd be worried it'd rip open....... is it flimsy thin material? I debated about buying one last year.

FYI... here's my profile foamy Extra and whats left of my Funtana... as u can see for my Extra I copied GPs Edge 540 paint scheme... I'm a little colour blind so contrasting colours are easiest for me to pick up....











@Z-8... where'd you get the checkerboard covering for the bottom of your Yak?


Originally Posted by z-8 View Post
The Y54 is more tossable, friendly and forgiving at slow speeds. But it is more challenging to do huge aerobatics and maintain smooth curves because you have to fly it the whole time, tracing each line in the sky instead of setting the sticks and letting momentum do the rest.

@Z-8... So, what you're saying is the Edge is an easier oveall flying plane because you don't need to be johnny-on-the-sticks 100% of the time... but the Yak slow-flies a tad better due to lower weight/lower wing loads & it also is more acrobatic in that it'll react quicker to inputs? Yes?

Hmmmm... with Funtana I always had the biggest issue during takeoff... it felt nose heavy and it was so quick to react I'd over input and slip or nose dive into a crash... in the air I'd be ok and use the extra acrobatic abilities for turn ease snapping over in half rolls...

Would the Yak be tricker to take-off with similarly?

The 3D I do is more precision thusfar... rolls, snap-rolls, flips, roll & flip to go the opposite direction, attempted torque rolls, harriers in wind, cutting some nice figure 8s.... trying to get the basics down... I'd say I'm creeping up to an intermediate level of skill. Do you think based on that the Edge being more precision & more of a flyer, yet still 3D capable with throws on FULL, might be a safier purchase for someone still skill building?
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Old 06-05-2011, 03:42 AM   #9
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3DHS Slick is an excellent plane - likely the best RC airplane I have ever flown. There is a reason he can't make them fast enough to keep up with orders. They make it in a size that will work for nearly anyone from 42" to 126".

His $99 Edge is a nice small plane too.

The GP Edge is not my favorite by a long stretch and does not beat the Slick in any category, IMHO.

It appears Aero-Model has both the Red and Yellow small 42" slick in stock - act fast.

http://www.aero-model.com/3D-Hobby-S...-Airplane.aspx
http://www.aero-model.com/3D-Hobby-S...-Airplane.aspx

Mike
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Old 06-05-2011, 04:13 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Mysterious View Post
@Lo
@Z-8... where'd you get the checkerboard covering for the bottom of your Yak?
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXHX88&P=7

That's red & white, they also make red & clear.

@Z-8... So, what you're saying is the Edge is an easier oveall flying plane because you don't need to be johnny-on-the-sticks 100% of the time... but the Yak slow-flies a tad better due to lower weight/lower wing loads & it also is more acrobatic in that it'll react quicker to inputs? Yes?

Hmmmm... with Funtana I always had the biggest issue during takeoff... it felt nose heavy and it was so quick to react I'd over input and slip or nose dive into a crash... in the air I'd be ok and use the extra acrobatic abilities for turn ease snapping over in half rolls...

Would the Yak be tricker to take-off with similarly?

The 3D I do is more precision thusfar... rolls, snap-rolls, flips, roll & flip to go the opposite direction, attempted torque rolls, harriers in wind, cutting some nice figure 8s.... trying to get the basics down... I'd say I'm creeping up to an intermediate level of skill. Do you think based on that the Edge being more precision & more of a flyer, yet still 3D capable with throws on FULL, might be a safier purchase for someone still skill building?
For 3D, generally the lighter the wing loading the easier and more forgiving the plane will be to fly, especially hanging on the prop. So I think the Yak-54 would be easier. The Edge would have more speed and be a little more difficult to balance. I don't think any 41" model is going to hover that easily, although I have gyros in my Yak-54 that do 60% of the work, I think it makes a great trainer (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXHHS2&P=ML).

I can post some video if you want.
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Old 06-05-2011, 04:29 AM   #11
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You don't need gyros to help you hover - you need well designed 3D airplanes, like the Slick.

If you need a hover trainer, you need a foamy like this.

http://www.3dhobbyshop.com/33-EPP-Ex...B_p_15759.html

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Old 06-05-2011, 04:49 AM   #12
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I use FM TX;s with no Expo or "mix'in" or any auto-crap,, flown my own thumbs for over 40 years and still fly the with most the young-guns out there,, and my young-guns are the top's!!
The Slick is a heck of a 3/d plane, my HodgeHound Bub's fly the boo-boo out of them,,bubsteve


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Old 06-05-2011, 05:28 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by z-8 View Post
although I have gyros in my Yak-54 that do 60% of the work, I think it makes a great trainer (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXHHS2&P=ML).

I can post some video if you want.
Your opinion on fly-ability of the 2.... is that WITHOUT a gyro or WITH?

(I was not planing to put in a gyro)
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Old 06-05-2011, 06:19 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Mysterious View Post
Your opinion on fly-ability of the 2.... is that WITHOUT a gyro or WITH?

(I was not planing to put in a gyro)
They both fly great with or without gyros, but different. The Yak-54 floats easier. It flies like a Yak, whic to me means it is happy with a very aft CG, as far back as 35-45% of the chord line is still perfectly controllable. Yaks fly different than most airplanes once you sex up the CG, and they take some getting used to. Most notably, the tail falls instead of rises as you stop blowing the tail up with powered air, and also as you bleed airspeed. The tail is like a weather vane behind a live motor, which is an incredible tool. There is no conventional glide to speak of, just a slow nose-rising arc, followed by a falling leaf on a 40 degree glide path or so, with little wing rock. This makes landing the Yak a lot trickier, you have to push the nose down final under a little power, then it naturally rounds out and I spoileron it onto the ground with my Aurora 9's flaperon/spoileron index finger roller. It can also fly very conventionally with a normal 25-35% chord CG.

The Edge 540 is faster which some might feel is more violent and exciting. It's sharp thin airfoil wing combines with 45 degree throw, barn door control surfaces to make some fantastic howls and shrieks as the wing plane plows sideways through the air. But it still flies conventionally compared to the aft balanced Yak. With its forward-swept wing, leading and trailing edges taken in aggregate, it is a more violent snapper and spinniner than the Yak. The Edge lands faster and more conventionally, though it is very high-alpha capable, just to a lesser extent than a Yak.

The Edge might have a slight control deflection advantage, particularly in elevator, but both planes can do around 4 aileron rolls per second roll on 100%-125% travel, so it's really not an issue.


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Old 06-05-2011, 06:30 AM   #15
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To give an idea of the throws we are talking about, here is control surface deflection comparison between my Edge 540 and PZ Extra 300 with both planes bound to the same radio. Also note the Edge benefits from 40% lighter wing loading than the Extra. The Yak has similar throws to the Edge and has 50% lighter WL than the PZ Extra:

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Old 06-05-2011, 07:06 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
3DHS Slick is an excellent plane - likely the best RC airplane I have ever flown. There is a reason he can't make them fast enough to keep up with orders. They make it in a size that will work for nearly anyone from 42" to 126".

His $99 Edge is a nice small plane too.

The GP Edge is not my favorite by a long stretch and does not beat the Slick in any category, IMHO.

It appears Aero-Model has both the Red and Yellow small 42" slick in stock - act fast.

http://www.aero-model.com/3D-Hobby-S...-Airplane.aspx
http://www.aero-model.com/3D-Hobby-S...-Airplane.aspx

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thanks for the links
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Old 06-05-2011, 07:15 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by z-8 View Post
They both fly great with or without gyros, but different. The Yak-54 floats easier. It flies like a Yak, whic to me means it is happy with a very aft CG, as far back as 35-45% of the chord line is still perfectly controllable. Yaks fly different than most airplanes once you sex up the CG, and they take some getting used to. Most notably, the tail falls instead of rises as you stop blowing the tail up with powered air, and also as you bleed airspeed. The tail is like a weather vane behind a live motor, which is an incredible tool. There is no conventional glide to speak of, just a slow nose-rising arc, followed by a falling leaf on a 40 degree glide path or so, with little wing rock. This makes landing the Yak a lot trickier, you have to push the nose down final under a little power, then it naturally rounds out and I spoileron it onto the ground with my Aurora 9's flaperon/spoileron index finger roller. It can also fly very conventionally with a normal 25-35% chord CG.

The Edge 540 is faster which some might feel is more violent and exciting. It's sharp thin airfoil wing combines with 45 degree throw, barn door control surfaces to make some fantastic howls and shrieks as the wing plane plows sideways through the air. But it still flies conventionally compared to the aft balanced Yak. With its forward-swept wing, leading and trailing edges taken in aggregate, it is a more violent snapper and spinniner than the Yak. The Edge lands faster and more conventionally, though it is very high-alpha capable, just to a lesser extent than a Yak.

The Edge might have a slight control deflection advantage, particularly in elevator, but both planes can do around 4 aileron rolls per second roll on 100%-125% travel, so it's really not an issue.
Well that was a mouthful...... lol........

So it sounds like Yak design are the best for slow fly characteristics and 3D capability....

I love the Edge colour scheme.... but I can't seem to find any slow flight vids... tonnes of Yaks slow fly hovering torque rolling all over... could slap on the pattern cover like u did in dark strips on the underside to ad contrast I guess....

Hmmm... I'm so torn... lol



Maybe I'll have to look at what Yaks are out there,...


Thanks for all the replies everyone, I got some thinking to do...
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:10 PM   #18
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Hey one thing that's really important that hasn't been addressed much is the elctronics. Any of these planes will show you every little imprecision in your equipment. It's really important to have strong, precise, consistently centering servos. Need 5 channels for spoilerons, which help in high alpha harriers into hovers, and also so you can trim each aileron independently. Plus a 2048 resolution Tx/Rx with ultra fine trim to keep from constantly rolling one way or the other with high throws.

To me, metal gear servos are a must with digital centering at least on the ailerons but preferably all four. Plastic gears will loosen up as they strip. There should be no play at all in the servo gearing when you manually apply some pressure to the arm. I suggest picking up a pack of ball links to link your rods to horns, so your no-play servos translate into no-play surfaces. The 41" GP kits come with carbon fiber push rods and arms, and all the servos mount close to their control surfaces. There is one adjustable side of each carbon rod, but you should permanently CA that piece once you have the arm length perfect, to avoid slipping under extreme forces in the air.

That's another reason to avoid the RTFs, the only aircraft component they optimize is paint. Their cheap servos would drive you crazy with inconsistent centering and play if the planes were any good.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:23 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Mysterious View Post
So it sounds like Yak design are the best for slow fly characteristics and 3D capability....

Thanks for all the replies everyone, I got some thinking to do...
That is what one guy is saying. The rest of us are recommending a MUCH better airplane.

The GP Yak is a hack compared to the Slick or Edge from 3DHS.

You are also, IMO, getting some crappy advice about the use of Gyros in 3D airplanes.

Also the reason you can't find a slow flight vids of the GP Yak is not many fly the plane - as there are much better choices.

We just had the 3DHS Fly Low In here in Grapevine at my local club. Just take a gander at what the 3D specialists use. There is a reason about every other plane at the event is a Slick. Trust me.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1372496

Mike
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Old 06-05-2011, 03:15 PM   #20
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I have the 42,59 and 71 slick. Had the 51 slick too. My brother has the 42 and 89 slick. Had the 51 also. I tried just about every other 3D plane that was avalible and found that the slick does it all. My skills are not the best but the plane makes me look much better than I am .

42 Slick (this one is a little better with the 42)

51 slick
59 slick
71 slick
maiden of the 89 slick (my brother flying it with a prop that was tooo small)


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Old 06-05-2011, 03:36 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
That is what one guy is saying. The rest of us are recommending a MUCH better airplane.

The GP Yak is a hack compared to the Slick or Edge from 3DHS.

*********

Also the reason you can't find a slow flight vids of the GP Yak is not many fly the plane - as there are much better choices.

We just had the 3DHS Fly Low In here in Grapevine at my local club. Just take a gander at what the 3D specialists use. There is a reason about every other plane at the event is a Slick. Trust me.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1372496

Mike
I'm taking in all the opinions and personal experiences... the 2 GPs compared... the 3DHS vs GPs... etc, etc.,.. I've got a lot of investigation to due I think before buying... so getting several opinions and such is helpful to me.... seeing what certain people say, maybe checking out their vids to gauge their experience, looking online for other vids, reviews, opinion threads...

I'm not sure what my "style" is other than nervous to take-off... LOL.... so I'm trying to find something I'll be happy with both flight wise and appearance wise.


What exactly is a Slick? Is it a Yak style fuselage, an Extra, and Edge or.....? Obviously from design affects aerobatic flight characteristics.


The other thing I didn't mention is I frequently/predominantly go fly in parking lots... I'm in a wheelchair (highschool football accident)... so taking off and landing and taxi'ing the plane back to where I am near my vehicle is much easier on concrete than trying to get out onto grass and drag it back. We do have a big fly field at the local club that guys taxi similar planes on the grass at but when going out solo I usually lean towards parking lots. I've learn to coast in & land pretty smoothly with my yellow/black 40' Edge seen above... but I'm trying to watch vids to see if these various planes are smooth landers or much more touchy... obviously if touchy early on I'll need to opt for a school field early on until I learn.
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Old 06-05-2011, 03:46 PM   #22
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A slick is a plane that was designed off of the laser . Here is some background info on it. Increditable aircraft

http://www.slickaircraft.com/background_overview.html

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Old 06-05-2011, 05:58 PM   #23
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thanks for the info
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Old 06-05-2011, 06:06 PM   #24
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@losi -the snow rashes hurt nothing? u flly pretty good
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Old 06-05-2011, 06:25 PM   #25
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Naa did hurt a thing. The whole inside of the plane was filled with snow though. Came in threw the nose and the vent in the bottom.

Here is aone where the 42 slick went swimming. Nothing hurt in that either. I just let it dry for 2 days

http://www.youtube.com/user/naugsbur...12/9iexzFY8OW8

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