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Old 08-17-2011, 11:39 PM   #1
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Default Lookie at who's looking now...

FPV flights over NYC,

Flite Test making guided bombs,


I'm tellin ya guys, some of the things that make the hobby fun for some are making the feds really nervous.


Heres a copy of an email Dad (Hircflyer) got in his mailbox:

----- Original Message -----
From: Abe, Mark Y.
To: REBBFB@HA**.RR.COM
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 10:27 AM
Subject: FBI Liaison

Richard, I am an agent with the local FBI office in HN. I am trying to establish liaison with clubs involved with RC model airplanes/Jets.



The death of Usama bin Laden has been used by al-Qa’ida and other terrorist groups as a rallying call for revenge against America. al-Qa’ida has openly encouraged individuals through the internet to conduct near term attacks of our homeland. al-Qa’ida is desperate and is encouraging supporters to take whatever action possible, to include small scale attacks. As such, the greatest threat America faces today is from the “Lone Wolf” or the “Lone Offender” who already resides in country.



al-Qa’ida has expressed an interest is conducting attacks of our homeland on significant American dates, such as Thanksgiving Day, Christmas and 9-11. The FBI is taking the threats from al-Qa’ida seriously and as such is seeking help from the community in identifying potential threats during the upcoming 9-11 remembrance.



Terrorist groups have shown an interest in using RC devices as weapons and I would like to disseminate this information out to RC enthusiast. Are there other clubs in Hawaii? I am also interested in talking to businesses that sell RC models and wonder if you could provide me with some contact information for such businesses.



Although the FBI does not have any information indicating imminent threats or attacks against in Hawaii, the FBI is taking a proactive stance and seeks to establish liaison with the community to facilitate the identification of possible indicators of terrorist attacks. I have attached a brochure that list some terrorist indicators as they relate to remote controlled aircraft/vehicles. You and your fellow enthusiast are encouraged to report any suspicious activities to the FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force (JTTF).





Mahalo,



Mark Abe

Special Agent FBI

JTTF Coordinator

808-566-4300

Cell: 808-738-6259

Email: mark.abe@ic.fbi.gov



Contact:
Federal Bureau of Investigation
Joint Terrorism Task Force
808-566-4300
Email: hn.intel@ic.fbi.gov


*******THIS TEXT WAS SENT TO HOBBY SHOPS as a poster BELOW********

Be part of the solution.
Require valid ID from all new customers.
Keep records of purchases.
Talk to customers, ask questions, and listen to and observe their responses.
Watch for people and actions that are out of place.
Make note of suspicious statements, people, and/or vehicles.
If something seems wrong, notify law enforcement authorities.

Do not jeopardize your safety or the safety of others.

Preventing terrorism is a community effort. By learning what to look for, you can make a positive contribution in the fight against terrorism. The partnership between the community and law enforcement is essential to the success of anti-terrorism efforts.

Some of the activities, taken individually, could be innocent and must be examined by law enforcement professionals in a larger context to determine whether there is a basis to investigate. The activities outlined on this handout are by no means all-inclusive but have been compiled from a review of terrorist events over several years.




Demonstrating unusual interest in remote-controlled aircraft.
Demonstrating interest that does not seem genuine.
Inquiring about remote controls and model aircraft payload capacity and maximum range.
Inquiring about learning to fly expensive giant-scale aircraft without first learning to fly small-scale aircraft.
Possessing little knowledge of activity for which the purchase is intended.
Exhibiting unusual interest or specific interest in rocket motors or igniters.
Demonstrating no interest or enthusiasm for the hobby or sport.
Shoplifting or purchasing
Large quantity of model aircraft fuel.
Several large aircraft, engines, or transmitters.
Model rocket motor igniters without adequate knowledge.
Large quantity of paintball equipment and supplies with very little information about local paintball activities.
Using cash for large transactions or a credit card in someone else’s name.

It is important to remember that just because someone’s speech, actions, beliefs, appearance, or way of life is different, it does not mean that he or she is suspicious.

What Should I Consider Suspicious?

This project was supported by Grant Number 2007-MU-BX-K002, awarded by the Bureau of Justice Assistance, Office of Justice Programs, U.S. Department of Justice. Each indictor listed above, is by itself, lawful conduct or behavior and may also constitute the exercise of rights guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. In addition, there may be a wholly innocent explanation for conduct or behavior that appears suspicious in nature. For this reason, no single indicator should be the sole basis for law enforcement action. The totality of behavioral indicators and other relevant circumstances should be evaluated when considering any law enforcement response or action.

Communities Against Terrorism

Potential Indicators of Terrorist Activities
Related to Hobby Shops

FBIFederal Bureau of Investigation

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Old 08-18-2011, 12:00 AM   #2
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Hi Jim
Well most of us knew this was going to happen sooner or later
Its no suprise. what with the crazy rc stunts posted on sites such as youtube dailymotion etc by less then brilliant individuals
All we can do is hope it doesnt escalate to something much more dire for the hobby
Take care dear friend
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Old 08-18-2011, 12:09 AM   #3
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not good,...not good at all for us fun loving hobbyist's who love flying without fpv equipment if regulations are based on perimeters of population/cities and area's deemed targets.

right now when the "no fly" notices appear it almost always includes all zones ,thus squashes all flying of RC in the NYC ,Connecticut ,NJ areas[close to the city]. let's hope the idiots who irresponsibly fly fpv don't cost us our rights to have fun and fly RC.


now that being said,i hope our government agencies that protect our homeland are able to successfully stop the terrorists before they attack again. a job i truly wouldn't want. it's such a huge task!

the hobbystores hopefully would report those shoppers who seem odd to be buying rc items without the education learned from experience in the hobby. our best hope to stop attacks is for everyone to remember"if you see something,say something!" thanks for posting this nitro,stu

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Old 08-18-2011, 01:14 AM   #4
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worrysome stuff for sure.

I think I need a signature.
Larry
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Old 08-18-2011, 01:32 AM   #5
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Jim,

Some stuff about that bothers me.

1. The FBI doesn't know how to correctly spell Osama bin Laden's name?

2. How did they get your dad's contact info?

3. They're the FBI, they don't know how to find out where the clubs and hobby shops are?

I don't know, maybe I've been reading too many Tom Clancey novels lately. I hope that your dad contacts the FBI HN branch independently and verifies that this email is legit.

Pat Gagnon
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Old 08-18-2011, 01:49 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by crxmanpat View Post
Jim,

Some stuff about that bothers me.

1. The FBI doesn't know how to correctly spell Osama bin Laden's name?

2. How did they get your dad's contact info?

3. They're the FBI, they don't know how to find out where the clubs and hobby shops are?

I don't know, maybe I've been reading too many Tom Clancey novels lately. I hope that your dad contacts the FBI HN branch independently and verifies that this email is legit.

Pat,

Way ahead of ya bro. I hit him on the phone within 20 seconds of getting the email from him. Asked the same questions, and had more than the same suspicions. The poster he included looked pretty official.

He is on the contact list in Hawaii for a couple of clubs, and he helps organize the Ford Island Air Show. He is the local flight inspector for the FAA, to qualify RC Pilots to fly on base during the airshow.

Dad picked up the phone and called him to verify. After they laughed about the spelling of OSBL, he just reiterated what the email and poster said.

Even with the clues of a hoax, this one is verified legit.

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Old 08-18-2011, 02:05 AM   #7
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This is not new. They have been contacting clubs and Hobby shops, along with flight training centers for years now.
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Old 08-18-2011, 02:33 AM   #8
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What do you suspect these lunatics will do If they can detonate explosions with mobile phones, which have a far greater range, are much easier to operate than even a super cub, and are much more concealable, why would these morons bother with R/C? Guess they achieved their aims though; we are all nervous and suspicious, and it's invaded our whole lives. I'm very, very far removed from all of this, living where I do, but every time I turn on the radio, there is another story about those psychotic aholes. You need a modicum of skill and some intelligence to operate an r/c plane; that should count most of them out.......
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Old 08-18-2011, 06:34 AM   #9
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That's awesome Jim. After your deal with the scammers, I knew you'd be all over it.

Pat Gagnon
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Old 08-18-2011, 04:16 PM   #10
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The same letter you quote has been sent with slightly different wording (so it relates to the business type) to truck rental agencies, car rental agencies, self-storage businesses, private airports, and I'm sure dozens of other business classifications all over the country. All the letters contain the wording you quoted
Be part of the solution.
Require valid ID from all new customers.
Keep records of purchases.
Talk to customers, ask questions, and listen to and observe their responses.
Watch for people and actions that are out of place.
Make note of suspicious statements, people, and/or vehicles.
If something seems wrong, notify law enforcement authorities.

Do not jeopardize your safety or the safety of others.

Preventing terrorism is a community effort. By learning what to look for, you can make a positive contribution in the fight against terrorism. The partnership between the community and law enforcement is essential to the success of anti-terrorism efforts.

Some of the activities, taken individually, could be innocent and must be examined by law enforcement professionals in a larger context to determine whether there is a basis to investigate. The activities outlined on this handout are by no means all-inclusive but have been compiled from a review of terrorist events over several years.
As far as the questions about other RC clubs and RC stores, sometimes their purpose in asking questions is not to find out the answer to those questions. They already know the RC clubs and RC stores. What they don't know is the extent of your willingness to help them. Your response to those questions gives them a gage to whether they can rely on you. Don't sell 'em short. They're sharp and know what they are doing.

They are covering all the bases, likely or not to result in an attack and they're making a list of friends and people who don't want to help them. If and when a situation goes down this homework will keep them from wasting their time when they have to actively pursue real dangerous bad guys.
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Old 08-18-2011, 05:03 PM   #11
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Now an enterprising terrorist would pose as an agent, and would work with an RC club to develop RC weapons in the name of helping the agency understand the range of possible threats and perfect the delivery mechanisms and weapons employment.

The black-hat would be getting the experts to aid in the RC weaponization and the members would think they were working with the gov't and so would not report it...


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Old 08-18-2011, 05:51 PM   #12
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If they are so desperate that they're looking for "lone wolf" killers, they're not going to get anyone that sophisticated. Heck, even for the World Trade Center job they had pilots who openly claimed to be interested in how to take off and navigate but weren't interested in knowing how to land.

Alert citizens could and did pick up on the cues that these people were up to no good. Some of the tips resulting stopped some of the terrorists who did the damage. Because we unfortunately have some hard experience now, it is much more difficult for the bad guys to repeat their past successes.

That doesn't mean they can't do it. They are still dangerous. I applaud the FBI in its broad approach to finding friends and allies in this fight. I don't think we need to be alarmed that our slightly crazy element has been mistaken for terrorists.
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Old 08-18-2011, 07:49 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Nitro Blast View Post

Flite Test making guided bombs,


In case you missed it.....


YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.

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Old 08-18-2011, 08:31 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Nitro Blast View Post
In case you missed it.....

Good grief
Just what our hobby needs, a pair of danged idiot fools violating all decent guidelines, and ignoring what our model airplane hobby is all about.

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Old 08-18-2011, 10:17 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
Good grief
Just what our hobby needs, a pair of danged idiot fools violating all decent guidelines, and ignoring what our model airplane hobby is all about.
Yes, and it's very irritating. Every time somebody does something irresponsible or willfully harmful, we lose more freedom as a result.

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Old 08-18-2011, 10:22 PM   #16
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Slightly off topic Question:

How many videos have you seen FPV, way way too high?



If the PRO's can have an incident, theres nothing preventing a hobby-related desaster if everyone starts flying renegade.

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Old 08-18-2011, 11:53 PM   #17
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I'll let you guys carry the ball on this one. I'm still bruised from last time I got alarmed at the nut cases.
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Old 08-18-2011, 11:56 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
Good grief
Just what our hobby needs, a pair of danged idiot fools violating all decent guidelines, and ignoring what our model airplane hobby is all about.

Violate AMA guidelines?
Yes.

Do something unsafe or morally or ethically wrong?
No.

Attract the wrong kind of attention, perhaps?
Yes.

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Old 08-19-2011, 12:02 AM   #19
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You ought to spell out exactly what AMA guidelines they broke and the AMA's reasoning behind the guidelines. I'll go away now.... in danger of betting excited here......
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Old 08-19-2011, 12:07 AM   #20
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Heh, I sucked you right in...

I *think* the first missle/guided bomb they dropped didn't qualify as being under control- and really that's about it, probably.

The last was a plane that was clearly under control, and if they had just one guy there not flying that would technically fulfill the role of 'spotter', I think.

If they called it a released plane instead of a guided bomb, I think that might have sidestepped another guideline that I'm too lazy to go look up.



I would say nothing they did was really egregious like the NYC FPV vid, but I do agree they are sending a somewhat incompatable message.


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Old 08-19-2011, 02:27 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins View Post
You ought to spell out exactly what AMA guidelines they broke and the AMA's reasoning behind the guidelines. I'll go away now.... in danger of betting excited here......
By no means am I an expert, but apart from possibly flying too high, I can't see any obvious violations. It's basically a controlled crash of a mid-air launched glider. If the terrorists wanted to use an RC plane to deploy a bomb, my guess is they would just strap it to the plane and fly it into the target instead of messing with "guided bombs". But I'm no expert or terrorist, so what do I know?

AMA #959089
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Old 08-19-2011, 02:41 AM   #22
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My guess is they'd just fill a 24' U-Haul van full of explosives and be done with it. You just can't do anything meaningfully bad with an RC plane and it's too technical with too much to learn anyway. They know cars, trucks, planes, bombs and guns. They're not going to deliver explosive in tap dance shoes, RC cars, RC boats, RC planes, amateur telescopes or compressed air pumpkin blasters. They always work with what they know and feel competent with.
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Old 08-19-2011, 04:35 AM   #23
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A lot of people were surprised when they hijacked airplanes and flew them into buildings. I suppose, up until that time, there were those who thought such a scenario was unlikely.

It's naive to underestimate people with murderous intent.

Tom
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Old 08-19-2011, 04:39 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by tr4252 View Post
A lot of people were surprised when they hijacked airplanes and flew them into buildings. I suppose, up until that time, there were those who thought such a scenario was unlikely.

It's naive to underestimate people with murderous intent.

Tom
Agreed:
Thats the nasty part of this whole thread.

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Old 08-19-2011, 04:43 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by tr4252 View Post
A lot of people were surprised when they hijacked airplanes and flew them into buildings. I suppose, up until that time, there were those who thought such a scenario was unlikely.

It's naive to underestimate people with murderous intent.

Tom
Hi Tom
I agree theres no easy way to deal with fanatics
The cause is all they care for and will give there life or others for
Take care dear friend
Yours Hank

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