UAV's Might Be Our Hobby's Downfall

[Dereck]

It might be a little OTT for this thread, but from joining the Royal Air Force in 1971 to leaving in 1993, our major concern was security against the thugs of the IRA. They were not political, just terrorists of the worst kind. We had to guard our bases and people against them, involving suchlike as armed gate guards - not many people had walked the street of England then armed, like I did on many occasions. One America would love was the solution to car bombings - have every car on base park so far from any building as to be inefective as a weapon of mass destruction. The 'record' I recall was on the next airfield and needed a shuttle bus service to get to work!

Anyone thinking this is too much for the civilian world? For years, British Rail had no trash bins on any of its stations after one of the IRA's 'heros' tossed a small bomb into a trash bin on a station in London and killed a 20-something father of two - after enough time to get out of the way, naturally.

Lessons? Don't ever forget terrorism. Don't assume that 'they' will take care of it. Once we in the US had a good idea where the trash came from and even what they looked like. Now, it seems, regular Americans - and Europeans - can be brainwashed into terrorism by 'religious' nuts. At least if the IRA killers ever opened their mouths, you had a clue as to where they'd come from...

If it stops some thug or religious nutter getting hold of the technology to load a big 'model' aircraft up with explosives and FPV, and flying it into a building, I'm all in favour of licensing, regulation and not that fussed over them being banned. Look at how many shots of '$10,000 in a hover' you see in hobby mags nowadays. That kind of power can also haul a lot of explosive cargo...

To 'fishbonez' - apart from how do you think these screen names up?, why do you think you can buy into our beloved hobby with no responsibility as small - to you anyway - as joining the AMA?

It's unlikely that the Chinese would be shipping all this cheap junk RC ripoff stuff over to the US if the hobby hadn't developed as it has over the years. They don't do it as a favour to you, I suspect

Heck, you don't even have to do much beyond send in a cheque.

D

[starcad]

Originally Posted by Dereck

It might be a little OTT for this thread, but from joining the Royal Air Force in 1971 to leaving in 1993, our major concern was security against the thugs of the IRA. They were not political, just terrorists of the worst kind. We had to guard our bases and people against them, involving suchlike as armed gate guards - not many people had walked the street of England then armed, like I did on many occasions. One America would love was the solution to car bombings - have every car on base park so far from any building as to be inefective as a weapon of mass destruction. The 'record' I recall was on the next airfield and needed a shuttle bus service to get to work!

Anyone thinking this is too much for the civilian world? For years, British Rail had no trash bins on any of its stations after one of the IRA's 'heros' tossed a small bomb into a trash bin on a station in London and killed a 20-something father of two - after enough time to get out of the way, naturally.

Lessons? Don't ever forget terrorism. Don't assume that 'they' will take care of it. Once we in the US had a good idea where the trash came from and even what they looked like. Now, it seems, regular Americans - and Europeans - can be brainwashed into terrorism by 'religious' nuts. At least if the IRA killers ever opened their mouths, you had a clue as to where they'd come from...

If it stops some thug or religious nutter getting hold of the technology to load a big 'model' aircraft up with explosives and FPV, and flying it into a building, I'm all in favour of licensing, regulation and not that fussed over them being banned. Look at how many shots of '$10,000 in a hover' you see in hobby mags nowadays. That kind of power can also haul a lot of explosive cargo...

To 'fishbonez' - apart from how do you think these screen names up?, why do you think you can buy into our beloved hobby with no responsibility as small - to you anyway - as joining the AMA?

It's unlikely that the Chinese would be shipping all this cheap junk RC ripoff stuff over to the US if the hobby hadn't developed as it has over the years. They don't do it as a favour to you, I suspect

Heck, you don't even have to do much beyond send in a cheque.

D

PayPal, It's safer

[Fishbonez]

[QUOTE=Azarr;838611]

Originally Posted by Fishbonez

I guess what I am trying to say is the AMA is just that the Academy of Model Aeronautics, from reading their website I do not see how they come close to a lobbyist group but more of a way for folks to promote RC airplanes as a sport within a club, and set down some guidelines for safe operation of the hobby. /QUOTE]

The AMA has a paid lobbyist in DC, Mitch Rose. In addition it is the recognized CBO (community based organization) that is dealing with the FAA on upcoming regulations that will affect rc pilots. and recognized by the FAI and the NAA as the representative body for model aircraft in the US.

From the AMA Web site:

"Mitch Rose
President and founder of Mitch Rose Strategic Consulting, Washington, D.C. Mitch Rose is a key lobbyist in Washington, D.C. who understands well how to navigate the halls of federal government on major legislative issues. He is an Anchorage, Alaska native, with degrees from American University’s Washington School of Law and the University of Washington. Rose’s career includes stops at The Walt Disney Company as vice president of government relations and as the chief of staff for U.S. Senator Ted Stevens. Some of the clients Mitch Rose Strategic Consulting has served include the National Cable and Telecommunications Association, Comcast, The Motion Picture Association of America, the Recording Industry Association of America, and the National Business Aviation Association of America."

Azarr

Interesting Azaar I must have missed that on the website. I will look into that further

Originally Posted by Dereck

To 'fishbonez' - apart from how do you think these screen names up?, why do you think you can buy into our beloved hobby with no responsibility as small - to you anyway - as joining the AMA?

It's unlikely that the Chinese would be shipping all this cheap junk RC ripoff stuff over to the US if the hobby hadn't developed as it has over the years. They don't do it as a favour to you, I suspect

Heck, you don't even have to do much beyond send in a cheque.D

Dereck First of all please alow me to thatnk you for your service to your country. Your contribution has allowed a safer England. As a service member myself. I unserstand where you are coming from. So again Thank you

2nd I have never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed and as said before I am new to the hobby. I am also not very good at reading between the lines. I have to admit I do not understand what you mean by buying into the hobby? If you were offended buy something I said my apologies. Like I said before I do not wish to the stir the pott here I was just voicing an opinion. I respect evryones right to an opinion but I am not sure what your opinion is here. At first I read it as sarcasism but then thought maybe you were not.

Again thanks for your service and if I missed something please let me know

[starcad]

[QUOTE=Fishbonez;838866]

Originally Posted by Azarr

Interesting Azaar I must have missed that on the website. I will look into that further



Dereck First of all please alow me to thatnk you for your service to your country. Your contribution has allowed a safer England. As a service member myself. I unserstand where you are coming from. So again Thank you

2nd I have never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed and as said before I am new to the hobby. I am also not very good at reading between the lines. I have to admit I do not understand what you mean by buying into the hobby? If you were offended buy something I said my apologies. Like I said before I do not wish to the stir the pott here I was just voicing an opinion. I respect evryones right to an opinion but I am not sure what your opinion is here. At first I read it as sarcasism but then thought maybe you were not.

Again thanks for your service and if I missed something please let me know

Fishbonez, I really don't think any offense was taken as most who post here are pretty seasoned visitors to these forums. I respect everyone's opinion weather I agree with them or not. You just have to take what is said or expressed with a grain of salt.

[solentlife]

Years ago in UK we had serious trouble with CB radios ....

Most people flew / RC'd on 27Mhz. It was safe as not many wanted or knew about CB. Then people started bringing in sets from Europe and USA ... upper end of 27Mhz band and of course far more powerful than our Tx's ...

I was one of the many that got shot down by CB'rs using our hill for greater range. One guy who switched on literally blanked out ALL slope soarers radios that day ... none of us could fly. Group of us found the guy in his car and had a chat with him. Basically his attitude was get lost - he couldn't care. Before we let him know what we were - we showed interest in his CB gear ... and he went on about how he boosted power and could talk to people xx miles away etc.
It was no wonder we couldn't fly ... it turned out that even other CB'rs had trouble when he powered up ... and THEY sorted him out. They were not so kind as us.

The problem got so bad that UK Govt allocated a complete band to CB ... but like most Govt's ignored the fact they were totally different to rest of world. Finally they gave 27Mhz to them ...

During all this - we heard about "It was going to be the end of RC as we knew it ...." ... any plane shot down that hurt someone would bring us into trouble ... Yep - we had all the similar comments.

What happened ? We survived. How ? By the Model community writing letters, clubs making noises, SMAE which now offloads to BMFA approached Govt ...

As I see it now ... any problems like this are harder to sort - because RC flying has moved from usually remote locations to parks and public view. Most public do not differentiate between usual model flying and other forms. Any accident of a drone or FPV will have possibility of serious consequences for general RC.

Lets be honest ... someone here sections oput FPV and quite rightly displays safe and sensible use of ... but go on Youtube and see the guy who flew his Trex clone 450 from his balcony ... along the road ... through a tunnel ... down to the beach ...

??

[solentlife]

Originally Posted by FlyingMonkey

I do not disagree. When I spoke with Jay Smith (the editor of the AMA's magazine) at SEFF I said as much to him. I told him, frankly, their PR system sucks.

For example, there we were, at an RC aircraft event, with almost 500 registered pilots, who knows how many unregistered pilots, and I am sure several people who had not yet bought anything RC, but was ready to. There was NO AMA booth. What?!?

He explained the reason for this was, "every registered pilot had to be a member of the AMA to register".

My reply to that was something to the effect of, I bet at least half only had it to go to the show. Because of this, they probably resented the AMA more, because they felt blackmailed into joining the AMA to be able to attend the event.

I said a booth with a good explanation where the money goes would help, or some sort of information about what exactly they've done to help the hobby. Give the guys who paid for this "service" a chance to actually see what it's going towards.

This reminds me of the RYA in UK ... Royal Yachting Association .. who are consutants to UK Govt etc.

Most people only pay RYA fees because you then get your Yacht Certificate cheaper than if you do not join .. in fact the Certificate is free as the price is the membership fee ! As the Certificate lasts 5 yrs ... not many pay subsequent years until 5 yrs later they need the paper again ...

Bit like your show flyers !!

But I do say - the RYA who get a lof of stick thrown at them, do have stalls, displays at yacht events ... get really involved in day to day etc.

[stevecooper]

Originally Posted by solentlife

This reminds me of the RYA in UK ... Royal Yachting Association .. who are consutants to UK Govt etc.

Most people only pay RYA fees because you then get your Yacht Certificate cheaper than if you do not join .. in fact the Certificate is free as the price is the membership fee ! As the Certificate lasts 5 yrs ... not many pay subsequent years until 5 yrs later they need the paper again ...

Bit like your show flyers !!

But I do say - the RYA who get a lof of stick thrown at them, do have stalls, displays at yacht events ... get really involved in day to day etc.

cool info Solent,,,As a yachtie myself,,here we pay 50-100$ a year to get our Reg,number,,bubsteve

[Octavius]

My goodness, can the weekly fear mongering please stop. Sadly I suspect it's just a dream of mine that will never come true.

[haasjj]

Originally Posted by Octavius

My goodness, can the weekly fear mongering please stop. Sadly I suspect it's just a dream of mine that will never come true.

What is wrong with you, stop fear mongering if we do that the world might come to an end. OH Sorry I geuss I should say the world WILL COME TO AN END.


the term autonomous was used in the thread my only question for anyone here, where have you seen a truly autonomous plane? and if you say there is one, I think you should find a shrink. UAV's are not autonomous they are Unmanned Aerial Vehicles flown by remote from as far away as the other side of the world. They are just getting autonomous ground vehicles to work I think it will be a while before a auto plane is ready.

[payne9999]

Originally Posted by haasjj

What is wrong with you, stop fear mongering if we do that the world might come to an end. OH Sorry I geuss I should say the world WILL COME TO AN END.


the term autonomous was used in the thread my only question for anyone here, where have you seen a truly autonomous plane? and if you say there is one, I think you should find a shrink. UAV's are not autonomous they are Unmanned Aerial Vehicles flown by remote from as far away as the other side of the world. They are just getting autonomous ground vehicles to work I think it will be a while before a auto plane is ready.

Maynard Hill sent a plane across the Atlantic in 2003. It was an 11 lb. RC plane using gyros and GPS. It flew for ~33 hours in an autonomous mode. The famous Dave Brown intercepted it by radio & took control of it when he sited it in the U.K. Dave made the landing. It is only one example, but Hey!

http://www.progressiveengineer.com/p...aynardHill.htm



Dave

[MadMonkey]

Originally Posted by haasjj

the term autonomous was used in the thread my only question for anyone here, where have you seen a truly autonomous plane? and if you say there is one, I think you should find a shrink. UAV's are not autonomous they are Unmanned Aerial Vehicles flown by remote from as far away as the other side of the world. They are just getting autonomous ground vehicles to work I think it will be a while before a auto plane is ready.

Huh? There are many UAV's that easily fly entire missions with zero human input, except hitting the launch button.

[cyclops2]

There are loads of autonomus contests every year. Some are quite good. It has a relative distance and direction meaning.

If I release a homing Pidgeon. The missile is autonomus.

Bats were autonomus in WWII & VERY destructive when they were armed.
They carried timed incendeary bombs.

Rescue dogs . Lots of autonomus things.

[cyclops2]

I really do not know who I hate more.

Terrorists or TV shows showing everyone how our latest milatary gadgets work. Ranges of weapons. Then our milatary comes back & says.............They are defeating our latest gadgets. We need TRILLIONS MORE to make more useless weapons. To be shown on TV.

SICK SICK country.

[solentlife]

Originally Posted by cyclops2

I really do not know who I hate more.

Terrorists or TV shows showing everyone how our latest milatary gadgets work. Ranges of weapons. Then our milatary comes back & says.............They are defeating our latest gadgets. We need TRILLIONS MORE to make more useless weapons. To be shown on TV.

SICK SICK country.

I was in Saudi during Gulf War 1 ... CNN were effectively target spotting for Iraqi's ... (not intentionally).

Iraq would fire of a Scud ... CNN would live report on TV. If I was an Iraqi - I didn't need anything other than CNN to tell me where it had landed.

CNN lost contract as I heard and is why BBC took over the reporting with a delay imposed on all "live" transmissions.

The Media cries for freedom of press etc. - but the consequences to armed forces are catastrophic at times. Not only that but when soldiers who are kill or be killed ... then prosecuted for doing their job ... why ? Media was there and some idiot applies moral code to war that is totally immoral. How many people die because soldiers are restricted by media looking over their shoulders ?


Sorry for the rant ... but having watched guys in various conflicts - I hate the media !!

[Fishbonez]

[QUOTE=starcad;838881]

Originally Posted by Fishbonez

Fishbonez, I really don't think any offense was taken as most who post here are pretty seasoned visitors to these forums. I respect everyone's opinion weather I agree with them or not. You just have to take what is said or expressed with a grain of salt.

Agreed and I was certainly not offended so I will leave it at that

[haasjj]

Originally Posted by payne9999

Maynard Hill sent a plane across the Atlantic in 2003. It was an 11 lb. RC plane using gyros and GPS. It flew for ~33 hours in an autonomous mode. The famous Dave Brown intercepted it by radio & took control of it when he sited it in the U.K. Dave made the landing. It is only one example, but Hey!

http://www.progressiveengineer.com/p...aynardHill.htm



Dave

Yes its an example that proves my point it had to be controlled to land hence not fully autonomous, an autonomous plane would only require power then it would takeoff fly and land and never be controlled by any remote.

[haasjj]

Originally Posted by cyclops2

There are loads of autonomus contests every year. Some are quite good. It has a relative distance and direction meaning.

If I release a homing Pidgeon. The missile is autonomus.

Bats were autonomus in WWII & VERY destructive when they were armed.
They carried timed incendeary bombs.

Rescue dogs . Lots of autonomus things.

I am not saying something can not be programed I am speaking of a truly autonomous thing in other words something that you don't tell it what to do or which direction to travel or give it any instructions which is what they mean when they say autonomous. Rescue dogs? are autonomous if you want to consider that but then so are humans monkeys whales should I go on or do you get the point we are speaking of electronic devices.

[haasjj]

Originally Posted by MadMonkey

Huh? There are many UAV's that easily fly entire missions with zero human input, except hitting the launch button.

Yes but here again its programed, take off fly here alert an operator when it arrives operator hits the fire button and then it returns by programming.

[MadMonkey]

Originally Posted by haasjj

Yes but here again its programed, take off fly here alert an operator when it arrives operator hits the fire button and then it returns by programming.

....what?

What exactly do you consider autonomous? Something that builds itself, programs itself, maintains itself, flies itself, decides itself what needs to be done (surveillance, attacks...)....? At some point it's going to need human input.

[haasjj]

ok your right im wrong

[solentlife]

Hey Guys .... aren't you drifting away from the point of this thread ... and in danger of people then not wanting to contribute because it became a 'bun-fight' over a word ?

I'm interested in the original thread ... not this 'autonomous' argument.

[MadMonkey]

Originally Posted by solentlife

I'm interested in the original thread ... not this 'autonomous' argument.

You don't have to read this part

[cyclops2]

Original post.

ALL of us fly Line of Site.
Some do ..Out of site . With a remote video camera.

Most of us do not even know what we are doing. Safer that way. More fun to. So ENJOY the flying & stop worrying about tree huggers & moralists that try to ruin everything with their PUSHY way of life.

Rich

[solentlife]

Originally Posted by Gohmer

How about more Gulf war and Royal Yachting Association? Fascinating stuff!

True ... I fell into the drift trap ... but realised ...

Kept you reading though !!

[fmw]

FPV's are exactly what bothers the government about our hobby. We would do well to stop it voluntarily.