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Old 11-05-2011, 08:52 PM   #1
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Default Factors that affect amp draw in motors

Hi all,

I was wondering if someone could point out what I'm not seeing in the difference between this motor...

http://www.headsuprc.com/servlet/the...00-Zoom/Detail

...and this one...

http://www.graysonhobby.com/catalog/...te_banner_id=1

...that allows the Grayson one to use a 6x4 while the Heads Up one is at max amp draw when using that same prop.

These motors have the same kV and same max amp draw (28A). I want to get the heads up one over the grayson if its the same, but i wanted to make sure they are basically the same motor? I also will probably use the 6x4 prop either way.

Drop some knowledge on me please

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Old 11-05-2011, 09:56 PM   #2
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I think you won't get a definitive answer. They are both re-branded Suppo 2212-06. Grayson is 'claiming' improvements over the original. Possible? I suppose.

What you are likely seeing is the difference between someone posting factory specs vs someone that does their own testing and giving you a more honest look at the motor.
Factory specs for motors can be all over the map from very good (Hacker, Axi and others willing to back their reputation) to almost pure fantasy (many of the Chinese motors).

Frankly, unless proven otherwise take them all with a grain of salt and de-rate ~20%.

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Old 11-05-2011, 10:11 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by PaperAirplane View Post
Hi all,

I was wondering if someone could point out what I'm not seeing in the difference between this motor...

http://www.headsuprc.com/servlet/the...00-Zoom/Detail

...and this one...

http://www.graysonhobby.com/catalog/...te_banner_id=1

...that allows the Grayson one to use a 6x4 while the Heads Up one is at max amp draw when using that same prop.

These motors have the same kV and same max amp draw (28A). I want to get the heads up one over the grayson if its the same, but i wanted to make sure they are basically the same motor? I also will probably use the 6x4 prop either way.

Drop some knowledge on me please
H'mmm
Guess you need to sprinkle some salt in your eyes before looking at this stuff.

The Headsuprc is claiming their motor can handle 28 Amps at 13 Volts for 364 watts. The motor weighs in at 1.8 ounces. IMHO, any motor running much over 100 watts per ounce of motor weight needs to be run at full throttle very carefully, to keep the smoke inside the motor. This motor is running at 364/1.8 or 202 watts per ounce.

It's funny how these suppliers never provide the winding resistance of the motor, something that is of critical importance in motor performance at high power levels, and that is something easily measured. (Ref http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50740)

Name brand $$$$ motors provide ALL the specifications, including winding resistance, so programs such as www.motocalc.com can provide useful information on motor performance.

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Old 11-05-2011, 10:31 PM   #4
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They are both claiming pretty much the same max current. How much of that goes into thrust and how much into heat is up for grabs. I know
I remember reading someone that used the Grayson model on a jet and burned up about 3 of them on 6x4. He was probably WOT all the time.
Overpropping among the electric community is positively rampant. Manufacturers and marketing aren't helping.

You got your math wrong I think. HURC doesn't claim 13v anywhere I see. He says fully charged 3S. Allowing for some batter sag maybe assume....say, 11.5v?
11.5 x 28 = 322W. 322/1.8 = 179 watts per ounce
Still a bit over the top.

If you use the 3W/gm rule of thumb you might allow them 150W.

They are both using the Suppo base specs.
Suppo does not suggest a 6x4 on 3S, only a 5x5.
They also claim the best efficiency is 14-22A, certainly not 28A cont. Run it around at that level continuously and expect things to probably fry.

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Old 11-05-2011, 10:41 PM   #5
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Default ratings

H'mmm
Guess you need to sprinkle some salt in your eyes before looking at this stuff.

The Headsuprc is claiming their motor can handle

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've have not had any problem with Headsup RC in Florida, his in house testing is very reliable. I've purchase from him because of his testing (2 day $2.00 shipping) in the beginning, now I do alot of swapping around to get the setup needed.

I'm with Flydiver on this one (post # 2) its tough to get a honest answer these days,...but again Jeff has great cust. service.

http://www.headsuprc.com/servlet/StoreFront

Keep them level

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Old 11-05-2011, 10:55 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by flydiver View Post
What you are likely seeing is the difference between someone posting factory specs vs someone that does their own testing and giving you a more honest look at the motor.
I think you are right. I know that Heads Up tests all their motors and post their findings but I dont know about Grayson. So you think both motors are pretty much interchangable?

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post

The Headsuprc is claiming their motor can handle 28 Amps at 13 Volts for 364 watts. The motor weighs in at 1.8 ounces. IMHO, any motor running much over 100 watts per ounce of motor weight needs to be run at full throttle very carefully, to keep the smoke inside the motor. This motor is running at 364/1.8 or 202 watts per ounce.
Interesting, I've never heard this before. Wouldn't you need an extremely tiny prop if u liked running full thottle often though, so that you would only pull 100 watts or less per once?

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Old 11-05-2011, 11:43 PM   #7
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I'd give you 50-50 they are exactly the same motor.

What seems to get lost a lot is electronics don't like to be run at 100%. If you want reliability, go for 80%. If you need the power of that motor at 100% all the time you should consider a bigger motor.

At 1.8oz that easily gives you 180W.
In those tiny props at high RPM very small changes in diameter or pitch can make marked difference in amp draw.
Your sig shows [GWS Slow Stick; Nutball]. If that is your experience base high KV motors and small props on jets/deltas are significantly different.

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Old 11-06-2011, 01:44 AM   #8
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I typically fly/cruise around at half throttle, so burning up the motor shouldn't be a problem. I'm thinking that half throttle should be under 180 watts total? If it works about proportionally then 322/2=161 watts at half throttle.

Its true that I have no experience with jet props but I'd like to see testing with some smaller scale speed props. I need to buy a wattmeter...

--------------------------------------------------
Flyingbrick50 - I totally agree Ive ordered from them countless times and Ive had good experiences with returns especially.

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Old 11-06-2011, 02:21 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by PaperAirplane View Post
I typically fly/cruise around at half throttle, so burning up the motor shouldn't be a problem. I'm thinking that half throttle should be under 180 watts total? If it works about proportionally then 322/2=161 watts at half throttle.

Its true that I have no experience with jet props but I'd like to see testing with some smaller scale speed props. I need to buy a wattmeter...

--------------------------------------------------
Flyingbrick50 - I totally agree Ive ordered from them countless times and Ive had good experiences with returns especially.
Typically, putting your transmitter at 1/2 throttle results in much less than half power to your motor. Has to do with the horses equal to the third power of the motors RPM.

This is where those wattmeters really pay their way.

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Old 11-06-2011, 02:54 AM   #10
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Kind of a gross rule of thumb is half throttle is more like 1/4 WOT amp draw.

Wattmeter = very good idea!

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Old 11-06-2011, 02:59 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by flydiver View Post
Kind of a gross rule of thumb is half throttle is more like 1/4 WOT amp draw.

Wattmeter = very good idea!

That's actually pretty close. Just wish that the DX7 transmitter had a throttle with expo on it.

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Old 11-06-2011, 03:53 AM   #12
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[QUOTE=flydiver;842486]
You got your math wrong I think. HURC doesn't claim 13v anywhere I see. He says fully charged 3S. Allowing for some batter sag maybe assume....say, 11.5v?
QUOTE]

The Heads UP RC link above shows the motor can be run at currents up to 28 amps and 7.2 to 13 VDC. That would be four A123 cells.

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Old 11-06-2011, 03:58 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by flydiver View Post
I'd give you 50-50 they are exactly the same motor.

What seems to get lost a lot is electronics don't like to be run at 100%. If you want reliability, go for 80%. If you need the power of that motor at 100% all the time you should consider a bigger motor.

At 1.8oz that easily gives you 180W.
In those tiny props at high RPM very small changes in diameter or pitch can make marked difference in amp draw.
Your sig shows [GWS Slow Stick; Nutball]. If that is your experience base high KV motors and small props on jets/deltas are significantly different.
I've run those $$$$ Hacker motors at their maximum power ratings repeatedly with no issues. Same for Castle Creations ESC's. But these parts cost a lot more than some of the "low cost" imports. You can likely buy a cheap motor, down rate it to 60% of max power, and still get a motor that can match the $$$$ units for a lot less money.

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Old 11-06-2011, 03:46 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
Typically, putting your transmitter at 1/2 throttle results in much less than half power to your motor. Has to do with the horses equal to the third power of the motors RPM.

This is where those wattmeters really pay their way.
Originally Posted by flydiver View Post
Kind of a gross rule of thumb is half throttle is more like 1/4 WOT amp draw.

Wattmeter = very good idea!
Wow so I would be fine at half to a certain amount more.

Also I looked at the specs and it seems the motors have different dimensions. 28x28mm on the heads up one vs 27.5x30mm on the parkjet.

Do the extra few mm in length on the parkjet possibly make it superior as a jet motor? Or is kV the only thing that matters?

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Old 11-06-2011, 05:08 PM   #15
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Like I said, 50-50 they are the SAME motor.
Probably all you are seeing is variations in measuring, not in true dimension.

Now, IF they are different motors, factors that you can't see make MUCH more difference than that measurement since that is just the outside can.
Weight and KV being essentially identical puts them in the same probable performance category. I'm betting you couldn't tell the difference in the air. This is especially true if you are going to spend most of your time at part throttle. It'll only show up if you are seriously hammering it and often.

The internal issues that make the big difference comparing near equal motors, are the plate thicknesses in the stator, the magnet strength, the stator-to-magnet air gap, wire gauge and quality, winding quality, and bearing quality. In those motors most of those variables are likely to be similar if not the same. Is is possible Grayson spec'ed some variation in winding or something? Yes-possible. I know of no way to tell unless you buy them both and send them to me for analysis.

It's a common practice to take a decent motor and rewind it. The same motor wound well by a craftsman can have anything from a 10-50% increase in power, though 10-15% is most common. Seems like a small amount but that can translate into a significant increase in power and heat handling ability.

You may want to peruse this for awhile. Notice that there ARE 3 different 2212-6 motors. There are variations. Figuring out WHICH one each of them IS and whether it makes any real difference is up to you.

Bottom line, go for the cheaper one IF that suits your needs. You won't be able to tell the diff anyway.

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Old 11-06-2011, 06:55 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by PaperAirplane View Post
Wow so I would be fine at half to a certain amount more.
As far as wattmeters, another $60 option is a Sears Craftsman #82369 digital AC AND DC clamp on ammeter. Note that most clamp on ammeters are AC only.

This unit allows voltage, resistance, frequency, thermocouple temperature measurements and so on. Its current range is 0-40 and - 400 Amps, so it can also be used to measure your auto's alternator charge rate, starter currents and similar.

And you do not need special adaptors for this unit, just clamp its jaws around ONE of the battery leads.

I've got one, use it much more than my similar priced Astroflight wattmeter. It stays in my field box for when other club members would like current measurements on their electric stuff.

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Old 11-06-2011, 07:35 PM   #17
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You may want to peruse this for awhile. Notice that there ARE 3 different 2212-6 motors. There are variations. Figuring out WHICH one each of them IS and whether it makes any real difference is up to you.

It is more complicated than this, since my Flybrushless testing only covers the Suppo branded ones... there are BP Ultimate, StrongPower, RC Timer, SpinMax, HiModel, RC Powers and any number of other "labels" for 2212-6 out there, which are "similar but not identical".
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Old 11-06-2011, 07:37 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Dr Kiwi View Post
You may want to peruse this for awhile. Notice that there ARE 3 different 2212-6 motors. There are variations. Figuring out WHICH one each of them IS and whether it makes any real difference is up to you.

It is more complicated than this, since my Flybrushless testing only covers the Suppo branded ones... there are BP Ultimate, StrongPower, RC Timer and any number of other "labels" out there, which are "similar but not identical".

Yeah
And who knows what diameter wire and how many strands were used to wind the motors?

As an example, just take a look at the different winds that the Hacker motors used in the same motor frame. Their "A30" series has over a dozen different configurations.

http://www.aero-model.com/Hacker-Bru...30-Series.aspx

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Old 11-06-2011, 08:39 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by PaperAirplane View Post
Wow so I would be fine at half to a certain amount more.
For other newbies reading this thread, that does NOT indicate you can buy an undersized ESC, connect it to a motor and battery and restrict it to less than full power.

Has to do with the peak currents these motors pull during the high frequency switching process inside the ESC itself.

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Old 11-06-2011, 09:56 PM   #20
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...never mind...

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Old 11-06-2011, 09:57 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
For other newbies reading this thread, that does NOT indicate you can buy an undersized ESC, connect it to a motor and battery and restrict it to less than full power.
If anything its always nice to have a slightly larger ESC than you max amp draw.

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Old 11-06-2011, 10:07 PM   #22
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Heres some info from the Suppo website on the 2212-6


Max. efficiency
Shaft diameter
Weight with cables
Internal Resistance
Dimensions(mm)
A2212/6
75%
3 mm
47 g
45 mΩ
27.5x30


No. Of cells
RPM/V
Max. efficiency current
NoLoad current / 10 V
Current
capacity
Ni-MH
Li-Poly
A2212/6
5-7
2-3
2200KV
14 - 22 A (>72%)
1.4 A
28 A/ 60 s

The Grayson Parkjet has the same dimensions and weight as this one EXCEPT for the shaft diameter. From Grayson's website on the motor...
After almost 2 yrs GraysonHobby and Welgard learned how to improve the original GH2212-06. Longer shaft along with some other Grayson special ingredients, GraysonHobby was worked closely with Welgard to develop an IMPROVED high speed high motor for high speed flying wings, park jets and just about anything else you want to go REALLY fast. Prop range is limited due to the High Kv (2200) rating of this motor. Use with 3 cell lipo battery capable of sustaining 30 amps. Prop range is from 5x5 to 6x4..
So it may actually be a better, modified motor?

Im not sure about the Heads up Rc one compared to this because like you said dimensions could be different because of errors in measuring.

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Old 11-06-2011, 10:21 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by flydiver View Post
You may want to peruse this for awhile. Notice that there ARE 3 different 2212-6 motors. There are variations.
None of these match with the specs on the grayson and heads up motors exactly for some reason. So i think Dr. Kiwi is right saying there are others that are similar but not identical.

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Old 11-07-2011, 04:00 AM   #24
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Buy 'em both, a wattmeter, and report back.
You won't, and likely neither has anyone else. Like I said in the beginning, you are not likely to find out...not really.

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Old 11-07-2011, 06:33 PM   #25
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I found that the Grayson SuperSonic v2 was slightly better than the bog-standard Suppo versions in that it seemed to cope with a bit more power without over-heating:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...88&postcount=4

Note that there is a slight difference in amp draw with the same prop, depending on whether a Dualsky or a Markus ESC was used.
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