E-Powered RES Kit Recommendations

[Stevephoon]

Hi all, after reading AEAJRs “The Simple Pleasure of R/E gliders thread I think I’d like to join the fun. I’m after something that is a nice soaring plane, but E-Powered. The idea of sitting down and flying for an hour sounds great. As far as I know, there are no glider pilots in my club so I thought I’d get some opinions here.

My Background: I love building so I want a kit or a short kit. I have never flown gliders before but I’m getting pretty good at with my sport planes. I have a DX7 radio I’d like to use. I’d be up to converting a glider to e-power if it’s not too hard.

Wants:
Kit or Short Kit
E-Powered
RES setup (Rudder Elevator, Spoiler)
Not real big, 2 Meter or so wing span.

Some planes I’ve come across:

Mountain Models Jester. This is a glider that maybe possible to convert?
http://www.mountainmodels.com/produc...roducts_id=174

StevensAero HelliumMG
http://www.stevensaero.com/StevensAe...2-p-19699.html


There must be more options out there. Does anyone have some favorites that they would like to share?

Steve

[Stevephoon]

I've done a little more searching and found a couple more electric kits.

DJ Aerotech's Mk II Chrysalis 2m ELECTRIC sailplane
http://www.djaerotech.com/dj_product/chrysalis2m-e.html

Great Planes ElectriFly Spectra
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXJ597&P=0

SkyBench has a few that have conversions. The LIL Bird looks nice....
http://www.skybench.com/

The SigMfg Riser maybe a possibility as well.
http://www.sigmfg.com/cgi-bin/dpsmar...FV5.html?E+Sig

The Carl Goldberg Gliders maybe possibile to convert
http://www.carlgoldbergproducts.com/..._electric.html

MM Glider Tech Grand Illusion Would need to be converted to electric
http://www.mmglidertech.com/grandillusion.php


I'm leaning towards the DJ Aerotech's Mk II Chrysalis , SkyBench LIL Bird or the Stevens Aeromodel Hellium. Any thoughts out there??

Thanks,
Steve

[2400rdr]

Check out a SoarWatt. I just built one and have been having a great time with it. It's a stick built model, and if you like building, you'll like this $24.00 kit. It's about as close to a scratch build as you can come because the kit is basically a bundle of 1/4 x 1/8 balsa sticks, a very small number of laser cut ply parts and a plan.

A fun build, and a good flyer. I was out riding thermals with mine today and loving it.

A plus is that once you have the plan you can strip out your own balsa and build more airframes for about $10.00.

http://www.aerocraftrc.com/planepage.php?id=6

Rick

[Leadchucker]

The Oly II makes a very easy electric conversion also. A 3548-800 motor,a 11 x 7 folding prop and a 2200 maH battery and you're ready to go.
http://www.skybench.com/index.html?h....com/home.html

[Stevephoon]

Originally Posted by 2400rdr

Check out a SoarWatt.
...
Rick

Rick,

Thanks for pointing out AeroCraftRC. I had forgotten about them. They have a couple of kits that are possibilities.

Originally Posted by Leadchucker

The Oly II makes a very easy electric conversion also. ...

Most of the SkyBench gliders have been coverted and have pointers on how to do it on their web site. The Oly II looks like a great glider, but it's a little bigger than I want to go.


I've also started exchanging E-Mails with Mountain Models on the possibility of converting the Jester to E-Power. So... More to come! I think I like the research around selecting a plane almost as much as building and flying. It's always nice to dream!

Steve

[2400rdr]

Originally Posted by Stevephoon

Thanks for pointing out AeroCraftRC. I had forgotten about them. They have a couple of kits that are possibilities.

If you decide to order from AeroCraftRC, I'd give them a call first and find out about availability and delivery time. Their fulfillment process was in bad shape during the summer- it took two months and a number of calls to them to get my SoarWatt from the day I ordered it (from the faraway, foreign land of Ohio).

Don't get me wrong- the SoarWatt is a delightful plane and I'm glad I waited it out. I'm planning to buy the plan for a Super SoarWatt soon, and I'm definitely going to call them before I place the order.

Rick

[Larry3215]

I know you think dont want a large model, but when it comes to sailplanes, size really really does matter.

A lot.

Really!

What ever size you think you want, get a bigger one

A 2 meter will fly rings around a 60" model. A 100" model will fly rings around a 2 meter model.

Thats why sailplane contests are dominated by models with LOOOOOONG wings. They work better.

No matter what size you end up with, try to resist two very powerful urges that will be almost over powering.

The first urge that will hit you with almost irresistible force is to make some part "just a little bit stronger".

DONT DO IT!!!!!

It will add weight and weight is your biggest enemy in a sailplane right after drag.

The next urge will be to over power it.

DONT DO IT!!!!!!!!!!

It will add weight and weight is.... you get the idea

Good luck with what ever you decide to build!

[Larry3215]

On the 'over power it' issue, Ive been doing some experimenting recently with my Mirage and a 2x6 trying to see just what is the minimum power you need to soar with the hawks.

My goal was to have an e-powered sailplane that weighed no more than the original "pure" sailplane version.

I was able to do it with both models without going to extremes.

I found that you could climb to altitude with either model - if they were built LIGHT - on as little as 22 watts per pound.

Thats not a typo. 22 watts per pound.

That low a power loading requires some patience and flying very much 'on the wing'. Id actually recommend 30-40 watts per pound as a more practical minimum.

I recently flew my Mirage in an ALES contest and won it flying at about 75 watts per pound. An ALES contest requires that you climb to 200 meters in 30 seconds.

I had by far the lowest power to weigh ratio in the contest and in fact never did make it to the 200 meters in any of the rounds.

BUT - I had the longest wing span and the lowest wing loading of the bunch. Those two things more than made up for the lack of power.

Most people will be happier with closer to 100 watts per pound for contest flying but, unless the wind is blowing hard, you dont really need it to be competitive.

The neat thing is the power system in the Mirage can be used for minimum weight soaring or contest soaring just by changing the prop and switching to a larger battery pack. Its just a question of sizing the power system for the minimums rather than the maximums.

[CHELLIE]

http://www.towerhobbies.com/products/towa4015_n.html

http://www.easyrc.com/sailplanes/index.html

[Stevephoon]

Larry3215 and Chellie,

Thanks for the thoughts and pointers. (Although Chellie, I'm looking for a kit build for the long winters here.) I have watched videos of overpowered gliders just looping and crashing at launch... It's nice to know that lower power levels are OK.

Brian over at Mountain Models did give me the dimensions on the Jester: "The fuse right behind the nose block is 0.914" wide on the inside of the fuselage sides" That's smaller than the diameter of the 450 motor I wanted to use (28 mm). I'm not sure if I have the building ability for any major modifications.

After some more reading and searching, the SkyBench OlyII that Leadchucker recommended is looking pretty good too.... As long as it's at least a two piece wing, then maybe a 100 in glider is not out of the question.

Steve

[Larry3215]

I think just about everything over 2 meters is a two or three piece wing. My 112" Mirage is 3 pieces.

[CHELLIE]

Originally Posted by Stevephoon

Larry3215 and Chellie,

Thanks for the thoughts and pointers. (Although Chellie, I'm looking for a kit build for the long winters here.) I have watched videos of overpowered gliders just looping and crashing at launch... It's nice to know that lower power levels are OK.

Brian over at Mountain Models did give me the dimensions on the Jester: "The fuse right behind the nose block is 0.914" wide on the inside of the fuselage sides" That's smaller than the diameter of the 450 motor I wanted to use (28 mm). I'm not sure if I have the building ability for any major modifications.

After some more reading and searching, the SkyBench OlyII that Leadchucker recommended is looking pretty good too.... As long as it's at least a two piece wing, then maybe a 100 in glider is not out of the question.

Steve

Hi Steve My First glider was a Wander 2 meter, I made it from a kit that my friend gave me, No wonder he gave it to me, It had a Million pieces of balsa wood in it well it sure seemed that way when i was putting it together, I thought I was never going to get that thing done i covered it in monokote, that was like about 25+ years ago, i used a cox 049 engine, a sig power pod held with rubber bands to the top of the main wing, with a 6x4 prop, that was a strong glider, it did not mind my cartwheel landings when i was first learning to fly RC I flew the heck out of that glider I finally got to the point where i could toss it, fly it, and catch it out of the air when landing that glider taught me a lot, at first, it taught me how bad of a pilot i was when starting out in RC , it taught me about thermals, it taught me not to let the glider get to far down wind if the wind kicks up, or you will loose it in a tree and have to take a hike for it, I love gliders, but i will never build another one from a kit, that build drove me Crazy, trying to keep everything, flat and straight, i used a building board with t pins, but it was still a difficult build, and I had build a few nice planes from kits, but that glider was a Rascal to build, I have learned too, that the ARF planes come out price wise cheaper than trying to buy the glue, covering, paint, etc, thats why i dont build kits any more, it almost cost me double to build a kit than to buy a ARF plane nowdays, Take care and have fun, Chellie

[SBS_Pilot]

I'm not qualified to give any advice, but I may at least share the links to two more planes to have a look at.

Guppy Mk2
This one is going to be my winter-build. It's a little bit smaller than you requested (172 cm), but IIRC there has been some enlargement made. I will probably try to add an extra rib to each wing to get it to 186 cm.
As far as I know there is currently no supplier of kits to Guppy, so this is a scratchbuilders plane. However, there is loads of documentation to the build in the thread below.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=996029



Watts Up
The other candidate for my winter-build. Actually I think Watts Up may be a better thermaller than the Guppy, but I fell in love on the looks of the Guppy. Watts Up has a wingspan of 254 cm (100 inch).
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1108935
http://shop.traplet.com/product.aspx?c=2772


Good luck when choosing plane. To me, choosing is almost as fun as building.

[riverrat]

SBS!

www.polecataero.com is back in business under a new
owner.

I heard they will be offering the Guppy kits again!!

Regards
Jimmy

[Stevephoon]

Originally Posted by CHELLIE

.... It had a Million pieces of balsa wood in it ...

Chellie, This is why I want a kit!! I want a million pieces!!! You are correct in saying that the ARFs are cheaper, but I'm looking for the enjoyment of building...

Originally Posted by SBS_Pilot

... Guppy Mk2 ...
... Watts Up ...

SBS_Pilot.. I'm still considering all possibilities, so thanks for the input. I came accoss the Watts Up as well, but I was really looking a 2M sized planes. So now I may need to expand my searches...

Originally Posted by riverrat

...I heard they will be offering the Guppy kits again!!

riverrat, another nice find they may have a 2M glider kit as well!

Still haven't much more time to search... I'll keep looking for a while longer..

Steve

[Dragonflyer]

Hi Steve,
The Helium looks good to me. It has a managable 6 footish wingspan, and that wing will perform well. I'm like you, I like to build, and cover to my liking, then I have a one of a kind at the field.
Like Chellie, I too did the .049 on a pod on a Mark's Models Windward back in the seventies. What fun planning an approach into a fenced in back yard, and catching it.
You may not win any soaring contests, but you will find thermals and that can be fun also.
Minumum motor/battery to get to 1000', then a separate battery for the receiver/servos.
Then go set in the lawn chair.
To much Fun
Bill

[mred]

You haven't said if you finally decided on a glider yet, so I am going to throw my 2 cents in. If you are still looking at a 2M glider, then I don't think you can go wrong with a Chrysalis 2M. It is really easy to build and flies fantastic. I have one and have been flying it for about 3 years now and while I may change a couple of minor things, overall it is a great glider and will hold it's own against most gliders in the 2M class and some open gliders as well.

I have the "E" model, but I would like to get another one and this time get the pure glider version. No it's not because I don't want a motor, but to have a longer nose for putting a motor in. The "E" model was designed for a speed 600 and NiCads and while that is fine, you can run a brushless just fine. The model tends to come out tail heavy because of the lighter motor. I am right at 40oz ready to fly weight on mine and I can lower that weight if I get rid of the 2200MAh battery and use a smaller battery and put it farther back in the fuselage. I have to use that 2200MAh battery for nose weight and it is right in front of the wing to help with the CG plus about 1/2 oz of led in the nose. Most electric gliders have that problem and I also have the Tower Hobbies Vista 2M with the same problem.

I am using the KD A22-20L for a motor and it's 200 watts is just about perfect for a 2M glider. It's not a rocket by any means, but is plenty of power for this size glider. I can climb at about a 60 deg angle and go up pretty fast, but not really fast. It can get to 1000ft in about 15 or 20 seconds and that is plenty fast for me. It is a RES glider and those spoilers are really needed for landing, or it will glide right on past you until you learn to bring it in just right. It was my first glider with spoilers and I will never have one without them again.

Ed

[Stevephoon]

Originally Posted by mred

.... I don't think you can go wrong with a Chrysalis 2M.

...this time get the pure glider version. ...

Ed,

Thanks for the input. I have not purchased anything yet. It's coming down to the Chrysalis and Lil Bird from SkyBench.

I like the classic Bird wing, but It seems that the the Chrysalis should be a slightly easier build and has the spoilers designed in.

For the Chrysalis, I have read online somewhere that people were extending the nose of the Chrysalis by an inch or two for use with lighter power setups. I was wondering how they did this. Maybe it was just by starting with the pure glider kit. It is listed as being about 2.5 inches longer. I also don't have tons of space for storing the wing, so I was thinking about the 3 piece wing.

Steve

[mred]

Originally Posted by Stevephoon

Ed,

Thanks for the input. I have not purchased anything yet. It's coming down to the Chrysalis and Lil Bird from SkyBench.

I like the classic Bird wing, but It seems that the the Chrysalis should be a slightly easier build and has the spoilers designed in.

For the Chrysalis, I have read online somewhere that people were extending the nose of the Chrysalis by an inch or two for use with lighter power setups. I was wondering how they did this. Maybe it was just by starting with the pure glider kit. It is listed as being about 2.5 inches longer. I also don't have tons of space for storing the wing, so I was thinking about the 3 piece wing.

Steve

I don't have the three piece wing, so I can't say much about it other then it should be a very stout design. You can extend the nose of the electric, but I think I am going with the regular glider instead of the motor glider this time. It's just easier to extend the nose this way. I just figure if it is already longer, then I don't have to worry about extending it, just cutting some off. I think 2 inches should be long enough and that is what I am going to try for. As for the shape of the wing, I love the bird too, but still went with the Chrysalis. Since it was designed for a beginner, it is easy to build and has outstanding instructions with it. You can also build it as a + or V tail and the needed material to build either is included, but not both. You could build the tail as removable, but the instructions are not in the kit for that. Don says the glider was designed to fly the same no matter what kind of tail you use, so I built mine as a V tail since I didn't have one of those yet and it flies great. Make sure you ask for both firewalls so you will have one that fits your motor. One is drilled for the speed 600 and the other is more of less blank. I mounted my motor in back of the firewall and it has worked out great. While I have no doubt that the Lil Bird is a good glider, I just think the Chrysalis is better. Just a personal choice here, but it is a great flying glider and you can't go wrong with that one.

Ed

[Stevephoon]

Well, I just pulled the trigger on.......

DJ Aerotech's Mk II Chrysalis 2m ELECTRIC sailplane
http://www.djaerotech.com/dj_product/chrysalis2m-e.html

I also purchased the 3 piece wing system. I am thinking of going with the V-Tail and to mount the motor on the front of the firewall and build a cowl. Hopefully this will be enough weight out front to balance correctly without needing to add any extra weight.

I have never built a glider and from what I have read, this one should be the easiest to build. That made my decision rather easy. It's also one of the lowest priced kits...

I'll probably do a build thread when I get started on it.

Thanks to everyone who chimed in.

Steve

[mred]

Glad to hear you finally made up your mind and got one on order. I think you will really like the Chrysalis. I have the V tail and while it is not the easiest to get lined up, if you take your time it should go together alright. What the heck, if I can do it anyone should be able to.

I think I would do the nose different then you are talking about though. It gets kind of cramped up there as it is, but it sounds like you are going to have even less room to put the motor in. Your going to have to change the slope of the nose to make room for that. Once you see the plans you will understand what I am talking about more. With the wires going over that spinning can, you have to leave enough room for clearance or you will be rubbing the wires.

I would love to see you do a build thread, so please do. Let us know on this thread so we can follow along with you. Good luck and once this glider is trimmed out it's a great flying glider and I think you are really going to like it.

I don't know about 1 hour flights, because I haven't had one yet, but I have gotten to 58 minuets so far. I have had a bunch of 30 minuets and better, but I haven't broken 1 hour yet. I get 45 minuets quite often and some 50 minuets, but no hour yet. That's just probably just me though. I am especially good at finding down air, but not quite so good at finding up air. I am thinking of getting a Thermal Scout just to see if it helps me. I know it can't hurt. Good luck and let us know when you start your build thread.

Ed

[cliffkot]

How crash worthy is the Chrysalis? Somewhere I came across a video of a fellow who landed his Chrysalis with one wing slightly low. It disintegrated when it touched the ground. Now I know that no RC model can hold together if it really hits hard, but the landing I saw was not that bad. I've seen much worse. It seemed like the plane just fell apart.

Any similar experiences?

Cliff

[Larry3215]

The better the sailplane performance is, the worse its crash worthiness will be.

More strength = more weight = worse performance.

The exception to that might be if you included lots of carbon fiber/kevlar etc. However, in reality, the hi dollar carbon/kevlar machines are just as fragile as a lightly built wood model and much more $$$$.

The reason for that is they dont use carbon/kevlar construction to make a model stronger - they do it to make it as light as possible and still be just barely strong enough.

You dont ever design a sailplane for crash worthiness.

If thats a major concern, then you want a Radian

[mred]

Well, I normally don't like to talk about my ham fisted landings, but yea, I have had a couple of not so great landing and the worst thing I have done is to break the firewall by punching it out in the center. Did that by falling straight down out of a tree when we pulled out down with a heavy string. It fell down about 10 feet and landed right on it's nose. I put a new one in using aircraft plywood instead of liteply and it has held up pretty good from then on. I also landed on a wing tip once and cartwheeled it a little and did a little damage, but nothing serious and it took me all of about an hour to fix it. Haven't had anything since then and I hope that is the end of my landing crash testing. I've had a couple of hard landing and not had any damage from them. Can't say as all landings will turn out as good as them, but it never came close to exploding.

Don told me that he designed it with that liteply firewall so it will break out and not tear the nose up like aircraft plywood can. It also helps keep the motor shaft from bending. He told me this after I put mine in and I was not about to take it out again.

I think part of the problem is using that darn CA. It is kind of brittle and will shatter on some impacts where a wood glue will just give. I have had CA shatter on me before and have stopped using it except when I get in a hurry and then I just use it for pins. I normally use wood glue or epoxy and some times a little CA, but very little. The only CA I use is the thin stuff and do NOT build with it or use that med or slow CA for anything. I started using that stuff when it first came out and found out that I didn't like it very much, but that is just me.

I haven't seen that glider exploding. Can you give me an address so I can see it too. I'm just wondering what he did.

Ed

[Larry3215]

Originally Posted by mred

Well, I normally don't like to talk about my ham fisted landings, but yea, I have had a couple of not so great landing and the worst thing I have done is to break the firewall by punching it out in the center. Did that by falling straight down out of a tree when we pulled out down with a heavy string. It fell down about 10 feet and landed right on it's nose. I put a new one in using aircraft plywood instead of liteply and it has held up pretty good from then on. I also landed on a wing tip once and cartwheeled it a little and did a little damage, but nothing serious and it took me all of about an hour to fix it. Haven't had anything since then and I hope that is the end of my landing crash testing. I've had a couple of hard landing and not had any damage from them. Can't say as all landings will turn out as good as them, but it never came close to exploding.

Don told me that he designed it with that liteply firewall so it will break out and not tear the nose up like aircraft plywood can. It also helps keep the motor shaft from bending. He told me this after I put mine in and I was not about to take it out again.

I think part of the problem is using that darn CA. It is kind of brittle and will shatter on some impacts where a wood glue will just give. I have had CA shatter on me before and have stopped using it except when I get in a hurry and then I just use it for pins. I normally use wood glue or epoxy and some times a little CA, but very little. The only CA I use is the thin stuff and do NOT build with it or use that med or slow CA for anything. I started using that stuff when it first came out and found out that I didn't like it very much, but that is just me.

I haven't seen that glider exploding. Can you give me an address so I can see it too. I'm just wondering what he did.

Ed

+1 on NOT using CA to build a wood sailplane with - or any wood model.

My current favorite is Tightbond III. Parts dry enough to handle in roughly 1/2 hr so it doesnt take ages to build with. Its a water based glue so most of the weight evaporates as it dries leaving you with a very light build even if your not super carefull putting it on. You also have a decent amount of working time to re-position parts as needed or to put the next several in place to get an entire subassembly done at the same time.

CA on the other hand stays the same weight as it cures, so what you put on is always there.

I still use thin ca to harden balsa in certain spots or to tack things some times, but thats it.