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Old 01-20-2012, 02:14 PM   #1
Bill G
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Default 3rd Times a Charm, Ain't No Chance of Being Tail Heavy, Guillows 16.5" FW190

Decided to take on a little side project, to keep my interest going in a recent lull.

The first Guillows 16.5" 190 I built was a brick, back when I was clueless.
The second one would have been fine, for a plane with a bit more nose length. I wanted a sheeted fuse, for a scale look. I used 1/32" but didn't use light enough grades of wood to stand a chance, without a 400 series motor in the nose.
The 3rd one: To make life easier, I scrapped the second one for parts. The tail feathers will be recovered with Microlite, and have been lightened a good bit. The rear fuse formers are light 1/32" balsa. Hindsight will be far beyond 20/20 here, having the lessons learned from #2 to go from. The Guillows 190s (2 different size kits offered) are both A3s, so they can be lengthened a hair to add nose length, making them A5-A8s. This one is lengthened about 3mm. The elevator/rudder servos, along with the motor/batt/esc will all, that's right, all be in the cowl.

The idea of covered framework, on a scale WWII sheet metal covered warbird just doesn't do it for me. When I started this project, I was still debating if it would be possible to sheet the fuse, with light 1/32" balsa. At this point, it appears that I've moved enough weight to the nose, that the fuse will actually have to be sheeted.

I also came across a new Guillows release yesterday at the LHS, that had to be collected. I wasn't even aware of this new, laser cut release. I normally am not a kit stasher, and only buy what I am ready to build, but this one had to be added to the collection. It's a 24" Dehavilland Beaver, and even has floats on the plans, as a build option. Schemes are everything. A while back, I saw a yellow/green Beaver on floats, and have wanted one since. Built light enough, I think a float Beaver this size could be possible.


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ID:	156587 The parts victim: #2 build of this plane, that I gave up on, due to tail heavyness. Peter Bremer FW190 scheme used.
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ID:	156588 Lightened donor tail feathers with new fuse, constructed with light 1/32" balsa formers.
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ID:	156589 Nice little PKZ 3-blade prop, that Glenn Lewis has just used on this same plane. It was a bit of work building up the adapter/spinner assembly for it.
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ID:	156590 ...and voila, there's a lot of stuff packed inside that cowl. The servo arm centers are chamfered, to not rub against the inside of the cowl. Very tight fit.
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ID:	156591 For 26 bucks, it had to come home with me yesterday.
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Old 01-22-2012, 05:36 AM   #2
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Old 01-22-2012, 09:47 AM   #3
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Best of luck with this one. That kind of build's way beyond my skills FTM.

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Old 01-22-2012, 12:58 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by mclarkson View Post
Best of luck with this one. That kind of build's way beyond my skills FTM.
Thanks. As I said, it's not the first time for me on this one.
This is one tricky plane, as there is so little nose length. It took me some years to develop a few rules for these micros, that has worked well. For short nosed vintage bipes: No gear/battery whatsoever allowed behind the wing leading edge. For short nosed warbirds: No gear allowed behind the CG, and as much of it as possible in the cowl.

This plane's probably not that difficult to build, if you use light covering on the fuse and tail. With the brushless AR6400BL bricks, these builds are much easier to tackle, for those who haven't experimented with having to arrange all the individual micro gear. The way I look at micros, is that you have to experiment to determine everything that doesn't work, in order to determine what does work. One problem I run into is that I like the fuse to be sheeted for scale looks, as well as adding other details. The added weight is what makes them difficult. I have to collect the lightest sheet at the LHS whenever they have it, whether I need it or not, at the time. This one is using a 4"x36" sheet of 1/32" balsa for the fuse, where the entire sheet weighs 7.5 grams.

The link below is the Stuka 16.5" kit, which is the last one I finished. The AR6400BL brick made it easy, although a linkage setup which connected the ailerons to the rudder servo was a bit tricky. Setting the CG with the Stuka is no problem, with the longer nose:
http://www.youtube.com/user/WTFLYR?feature=mhee#p/u/4/wdCdwgk8PvM
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Old 01-23-2012, 02:29 PM   #5
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Gotta put something here to post.


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ID:	156668 Finished the aileron linkage. The GWS fiber washers are glued to the servo arms, to take up side play. I can only make S-bends but so small, even with .025" wire!
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Old 01-23-2012, 04:05 PM   #6
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Looks good. Hope it flies well for you.
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Old 01-23-2012, 09:01 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Bill G View Post
For short nosed vintage bipes: No gear/battery whatsoever allowed behind the wing leading edge.
Yeah, I'm just discovering that myself with a tripe build.

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Old 01-24-2012, 12:08 AM   #8
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You know, I have built tons of these tiny stick and tissue planes over the years..But I STILL can't get my mind around converting one to rc that is so small.. I know its been done alot.. but when I think back about how small and frail they are..it still seems impossible.

hope it flies great.
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:39 PM   #9
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Thanks for the comments all.

Originally Posted by foodstick View Post
You know, I have built tons of these tiny stick and tissue planes over the years..But I STILL can't get my mind around converting one to rc that is so small.. I know its been done alot.. but when I think back about how small and frail they are..it still seems impossible.

hope it flies great.
Thanks
They don't have to be frail, but then they're not exactly indoor flyers either.
People ask, "How much room does that 16" warbird need to fly?"
Answer: Same same amount as most any 40" warbird.
I have built ones with really light balsa, and the fragility can become a problem. It seems that you either build them light as a feather, or you have to build robust enough to take a small amount of abuse, while not becoming too heavy. A lot of grey area in there with these. The biplanes are easier to tackle.

The plane's ready to cover with Microlite, after adding light sheet to the wing LE. The front of the wing ribs were notched, so as to not thicken the wing with the sheet. The "sagging" covering across wing LEs just doesn't look correct, on these planes. I saw another one of these just finished that was done that way, and it looked really good.


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Old 01-27-2012, 04:32 PM   #10
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Nice use of space Bill,
The servo size and weight at that scale has a large impact on the weight and balance calculation
You continue to amaze me with the speed at which you design and build
Dave
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Old 01-29-2012, 07:32 AM   #11
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Thanks Dave. The balancing is looking really good with everything covered now, and I'm hoping that the plane will not need the 3cell lipo for power, as I can balance it with 2cells, or maybe even less, although the electronics require 2-3cells. The component filled cowl has really paid off.

I got some covering done today, and forgot how easy it is to cover these tiny planes with Microlite. No struggle at all to have a wrinkle free job, with 1 sheet per fuse side.


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ID:	156807 For a cleaner look, the fuse sheeting has a stepped notch for a more flush alignment of the rear canopy to the fuse surface at the rear of the cocpit.
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ID:	156808 Fuse fully covered. I'm also glad that I talked myself into adding the front gun troughs. Micro antenna taped to canopy, so it doesn't get sucked back into the fuse, after routing it through the tiny hole in the canopy.
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ID:	156809 Thanks to all the micro ARFs that use 1cell lipos, the cells all come with connectors these days. Not sure if this 190 will use the batt, but I had to strip the cells down first, cutting off the silicone and removing connectors, before building this 3s.
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:36 AM   #12
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Just finished the little plane. With the smallest 2 cell 120mAh lipo I have, the plane easily balances at somewhere around 22% MAC. The AUW is roughly 85-91 grams, depending on which battery is used. In theory, the 120mAh 2cell should provide 75W/lb, but I have not found the C ratings of many lipos, and especially small ones to be realistic. With either the 210 or 300mAh 3cell batts, I'm not too concerned about having enough power. The wing loading of the plane is approximately 10oz/sq-ft, which is toward the higher end for planes this size, although I've gone heavier in the past.

I did a bit of experimenting with battery installation procedure, where the wing is then secured with a rear slide latch. Like many small planes, it's difficult to keep the wiring away from servo arms, and it makes it discouraging to fly the plane, when you have to carefully arrange wires each time you install the battery and wing for a flight. The solution was to make a light weight aileron servo cover, from light clear acetate sheet.


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ID:	156859 Managed to scrounge up enough leftover decals for the plane. The "1" came from a Cox 190, and the white wing markings were cut from white waterslide decal material.
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ID:	156860 The rudder waterslide decals were cut down from larger crosses, and the bent arms were added from more black waterslide material. Piecing these together was a bit tedious, to say the least.
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ID:	156861 Well then how am I supposed to build a 3-cell, when the only cells that you sell already have connectors, thanks to all the 1 cell micro planes? lol
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ID:	156869 Ailerons servo cover made from thin clear acetate sheet, to keep wires away from the servo arms. The cover was formed from a single piece and then lightened as much as possible.
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:39 AM   #13
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Awesome, I love this build. Beautiful plane!!! I may have to steal the design and make my own within the next year. What motor is that you are using?

I'm either going to get good at flying em, or get good at fixin em!
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:40 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by BroncoSquid View Post
Awesome, I love this build. Beautiful plane!!! I may have to steal the design and make my own within the next year. What motor is that you are using?
Thanks
I can tell you that one thing worth doing, is cutting your own rear fuse formers from reasonably light 1/32" balsa. It's really delicate though, and especially when cutting out the stringer notches! I had to add microscopic glue drops with a knife tip, to reinforce the wood. If you add much glue, then the added glue weight defeats the purpose.


This is the motor used:
http://www.hobbypartz.com/88e-mm201-...or-2900kv.html

The 8-10 gram range is probably ideal for this plane, as it's difficult to set the CG without adding nose ballast, if you use a lighter motor. The few planes I've built with lighter motors and without needing nose ballast had very light tails, and all gear mounted far forward, like this one. There's a small Hextronik that is sold under other names, that I've had success with. Off top of head it may be more powerful than the one I have now:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...nner_10g_.html

The ELE micro outrunners are high quality motors, but then again they aren't cheap. I've used this one, and their 2900kv 5 gram motor in several planes:
http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id...7&pid=B3805277
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:51 PM   #15
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Wunderbar!

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Old 02-02-2012, 09:29 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Bill G View Post
Thanks
I can tell you that one thing worth doing, is cutting your own rear fuse formers from reasonably light 1/32" balsa. It's really delicate though, and especially when cutting out the stringer notches! I had to add microscopic glue drops with a knife tip, to reinforce the wood. If you add much glue, then the added glue weight defeats the purpose.
Yeah i know what you are talking about. Wing ribs are bad enough in 1/32 but fuse formers in 1/32 ugh.
I was thinking about this project and the lack of nose. Ever any thoughts of taking this kit and turning it into a TA-152?

I'm either going to get good at flying em, or get good at fixin em!
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:44 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by BroncoSquid View Post
Yeah i know what you are talking about. Wing ribs are bad enough in 1/32 but fuse formers in 1/32 ugh.
I was thinking about this project and the lack of nose. Ever any thoughts of taking this kit and turning it into a TA-152?
I actually thought about doing that with the fuse, leftover from the plane that was used for donor parts for this project. I still have the old sheeted fuse. It's a bit heavier than I'd like, but with the added wing area of the TA152 or FW190 D9 would help. I could carefully saw the old fuse and insert/sculpt a light balsa section to lengthen it, as well as create a new, longer nose.
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:42 AM   #18
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Default The little plane flies

Amazingly, this plane ended up nose heavy of all things, and the battery did not need to be located nearly as far forward as the batt compartment allows. I think it may fly even better with a few grams of noseweight removed, which could be done with a new cowl, as this cowl is reused from another build, and has some glue/glass weight added inside. The plane is fine after the flight, and only needs a new prop after going into the tall grass. It got a bit far away, and it's is size is a bit responsive and needs to be flown very carefully. Was glad to find it all in one piece.

After a first flight, the trims provide a good deal of insight towards any wing asymmetry in the wings, prop angle changes, etc. I probably won't bother to put much more effort into it, as it was more of a personal feat to just get past, but it could be a really nice flying little plane with a bit more effort and experimentation. Expo for the elevator would be a really good thing also.

edit:
After a bit of thinking, I'm starting to think that the Horizon Hobby tiny 3-blade prop hub may have exploded in flight. The prop adapter, screw, and washer are all there, but there's no evidence of a prop, including even the center hub even being gone. I found the spinner, but no prop parts to be found. I've never seen anything like this, where even the prop hub is gone from the adapter, so I'll have to see if others have had this new little 3-blade prop come apart.

Probably one of only 2 or so videos of this plane ever posted, flying as an rc flight conversion.
Maybe even a first:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w47tnwSghR0&list=UUtk2LreLH_IhNe3uS3fLSoA& index=1&feature=plcp


Can other people see this You Tube video preview window?
Wattflyer won't let me see it, and says I need Flash installed, which I just updated.
YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.



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Name:	FW190_16inch_V3_17.jpg
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ID:	158383 The motor would sag a bit under load with this little Eflite batt after a few seconds, but it proved to be more than ample at part throttle.
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ID:	158384 The lightweight plastic spinner made over this mold was a good idea, as it crushed when the plane went in, absorbing shock. No damage to the plane, needing only a new prop.
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