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Old 04-20-2012, 08:01 AM   #1
sql_yoda
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Default Soldering problems

I have two issues I need some help with, and I could at this point really use some advice.

I've got a very cheap but usually effective variable heat soldering station for small electronics (I mostly just mess around with BEAM robots). The first problem is twofold - when I try to use it (on the highest power setting) to solder bullet connectors to the battery I bought (Hyperion G3 VX - 4S 2600mAh) it still takes a really long time to heat the wire to temp, and by that time i can feel alarmingly hot temps near the actual battery. The other half of this problem is that I'm using 60/40 solder with flux in the core - I usually do this kind of thing on small components and not on heavy guage wire.

So, my first question is, do I need to buy a new soldering iron for something a little more appropriate to the hobby, do I need a different solder, or do I just need to refine my technique for the wire? Would a gun type rather than a pencil type be more appropriate here?

The other problem is that I really, really don't like the bullet connectors - I've seen and read good things about dean's connectors and I want to know if, with my clumsy technique, i might kill my ESC by being completely incompetent at soldering new connectors on.

Thanks
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Old 04-20-2012, 08:25 AM   #2
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I have been soldering electronic stuff for many years, I have found too small an iron, may be at soldering temp when you touch it to a large connection, but then can not keep the temp it needs to do the job.

On bullet connections I use a 130watt Weller soldering gun, it has the heat power to heat the bullets, solder them, and pull it away in seconds, before the heat can travel up the wires.

If you have heat shrink slipped over the wire, you must get the heat off quickly.
You can reduce the heat travel by clamping a heatsink on the wire, but it must touch the wire itself, not clamped to the insulation. You can make a heatsink by putting a rubber band on the handle of a pair of pliers.

I am sure you will hear many people solder bullets with a 30w iron, and I have done that also, but my favorite is the gun. I apply heat for only about 5 seconds.

It helps a lot to hold every thing in place with some kind of jig. I have 2 alligator clips soldered to a short half circle of heavy wire, one clip holds the bullet, and the other holds the wire in place. Also very handy to have a can of circuit cooler (freeze spray) to stop the heat.

Do not allow the connection to move before the solder cools, if the connection is not shiny, you may have what we call a cold solder joint, that could cause problems with motor operation.

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Old 04-20-2012, 08:51 AM   #3
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Thank you so much Wildflyer. I figured when I couldn't get a solid connection on the bullet connectors that I'd need a gun iron instead of my delicate one, but to have someone with experience agree is invaluable. I did have the heat shrink over the wires as well as the (imho really useless) plastic seperator and they messed around with my aim - so much that i burned my finger and got ticked off. I've never used a cooling spray though - I don't think I will need to - I just need to get the heavier wire hot fast and thank you for confirming that a gun iron is what I need.

Thanks so much for your reply - Do you have an opinion on which connector is best? I ask because I've accidentally touched the stripped wires off the battery together (for a split second) and freaked out. Right now I can change all of them up between esc, batt, and charger and just do not want to do it twice.

Edited: I used a pair of vice grips to hold the bullet connector and pinned the wires in place. I also pre-tinned the wire and connector. just couldn't get a solid connection before the wires starting getting too hot for comfort.
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Old 04-20-2012, 02:31 PM   #4
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I've used both the Deans and the bullet connectors. I think from what you described, I'd stick with the bullet connectors, if you mean EC3's typically blue. Deans are a bit more difficult to solder, but with practice you can get good at almost anything. If you do a little searching you will find all kinds of suggestions on other types of connectors here on WattFlyer. Others will no doubt chime in as well. Most people complain that the Deans are difficult to separate. Others find that is not a big deal.

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Old 04-20-2012, 02:39 PM   #5
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I have found Deans a little more difficult to solder, but not impossible. With practice you can get good at it. But some people find them difficult to separate. I use EC3's and have found that with practice I got better and better at it.

You also might want to check out Anderson Power Poles a lot of the guys and gals really like these, though I personally have never used them. You don't need to solder these, they are crimped on, but again people find them very useful.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64539

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Old 04-23-2012, 01:43 PM   #6
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I found soldering deans plugs can be a pain when you first start out,lets say you are soldering the male deans plug first,i put the female plug on the other end as i solder,do the same when soldering the female plug by putting a male on the other end that way when you use them they come apart a lot easier.

I also found that the XT60 connectors from Hobbyking.com are quite easy to solder than what the deans connectors are,plus i do the same here to which is to put a male plug on the female plug when soldering it,not that they are hard to part like the deans connectors can be when using them.
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:45 PM   #7
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I use deans, and like them for connectors. They are not bad to solder. What I do, get yourself a set of "helping hands" from harbor freight. I just use the jaws or aligotor clips to hold connector and wire. Head up the connector without the wire, tin it, do the same for the wire. Then put the wire and connector together, heat up the connector intil the solder starts to melt, put more on there until you feel you have enough and your done. Www.headsuprc.com also sells "easy connectors" for deans. They look like a small clip you solder to the wire, then slip them over the deans connector and heat shrink. Anothing think I like about heads up, bullet connectors installed on the esc and motor, and deans already installed on battery and esc.

When I have had trouble with wires getting hot on my 30 watt iron, it has been because the tip was dirty, or the set screw that holds in on place was slightly loose. Even a small iron should be fine for such small connectors, but a better iron might be a good investment if you spend a lot of time soldering. You have to think about the connector you are heating up as a heat sink. I always heat up the connector until solder melts, then attach the wire after the connector is already hot. I find this give much better adhesion and connection, and you don't hardly heat up the wire. The pre tinned solder on the wire will melt instantly, hold the wire to the connector after removing heat and the solder will solidify very quickly. Then I heat up the connector again pushing solder against the wire until I am happy with how much is on the connector.

Bullet connectors are extremely easy I think. I hold the iron to the outside of the bullet connector untill the solder on the inside melts, throw the wire in it, remove iron. Its not so much skill as experiance or learning what works for you. Good equipment and the right tools help, especially while learning.
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Old 04-23-2012, 04:48 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by startazz View Post
I found soldering deans plugs can be a pain when you first start out,lets say you are soldering the male deans plug first,i put the female plug on the other end as i solder,do the same when soldering the female plug by putting a male on the other end that way when you use them they come apart a lot easier. ..............
Note - (I post this after doing just this !!)

Do not grip the male Deans in a vice by the pins when soldering up !! ALWAYS grip by the plastic ......

I use Deans because in my EDF cockpit - XT60 is too big to sit clear of the servo .... and i have no problem with them ... they connnect battery to ESC ... and bullets ESC to motor.

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Old 04-24-2012, 03:50 AM   #9
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That little soldering iron just can't hold the temp you need for soldering anything like a deans or bullet connectors. It just looses heat to fast to make a good connection and you wind up having to hold it for far to long to heat everything up. You need at least a 60 watt and a good size tip. About a 3/16" or 1/4" will work OK for soldering those things. You don't want to heat everything up, just the part that you are soldering. Your solder is fine, it's the iron that is killing you, so get a bigger one. One with interchangeable tips is best and about a 60 watt or above. I love APP's for connecting the battery to the ESC and bought the crimper for it, but you can solder them if you want. They are super easy to use and will take more running amps then what they are marked for. That is connect amps and means connecting while under load. You motor is not normally under load when connecting them, or at least I hope not. Remember, the item you are soldering has to come up to temp to solder and if you iron is to small, then it takes the heat out of the tip and you sit there waiting for it to heat everything up. That's bad. The faster you can transfer heat to the item you are soldering the better.

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Old 04-24-2012, 04:30 AM   #10
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A Weller WP-35 with rosin free solder and nokrode flux paste can easily solder Deans connectors and anything else you need up to 10 gauge wire. The side of the WP-35 barrel can be used to heat most heat shrink although any decent blow dryer will do a more aesthically pleasing job. I use a Weller temperature controlled soldering station at work. I brought my old bench workhorse WP-35 home to do quickie heli circuit repairs. You don't need a flame thrower to do a solid solder joint you simply need to have steady hands and develop a strong sense of where the melt point is. I've seen a lot of DYI guitar circuits over the years. The most common mistake is superheating the joint. The trick is work clean fast and know the right mix of flux to solder.

It's worth buying a good soldering pencil if you are a hobbyist the thing will last you years. At work we kill the temp control wands every eight to 12 months. But we have to undo a lot of well intentioned but foolish joints to recover vintage parts. This will not be an issue wiring new aircraft circuits

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Old 04-24-2012, 06:27 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by sql_yoda View Post
I have two issues I need some help with, and I could at this point really use some advice.

I've got a very cheap but usually effective variable heat soldering station for small electronics (I mostly just mess around with BEAM robots). The first problem is twofold - when I try to use it (on the highest power setting) to solder bullet connectors to the battery I bought (Hyperion G3 VX - 4S 2600mAh) it still takes a really long time to heat the wire to temp, and by that time i can feel alarmingly hot temps near the actual battery. The other half of this problem is that I'm using 60/40 solder with flux in the core - I usually do this kind of thing on small components and not on heavy guage wire.

So, my first question is, do I need to buy a new soldering iron for something a little more appropriate to the hobby, do I need a different solder, or do I just need to refine my technique for the wire? Would a gun type rather than a pencil type be more appropriate here?

The other problem is that I really, really don't like the bullet connectors - I've seen and read good things about dean's connectors and I want to know if, with my clumsy technique, i might kill my ESC by being completely incompetent at soldering new connectors on.

Thanks
I've been operating a soldering iron for over 50 years now. My workshop has somewhere around a dozen soldering irons, butane soldering irons, and soldering guns.

Those soldering guns do work, I've got a gun rated at 350 watts. But their tips have little mass, so keeping their temperature at a reasonable value without overheating your project takes a LOT of care.

What really works well for larger soldering jobs is a temperature regulated soldering iron. I've been using my Weller 100 watt iron now for over a year now. It easily handles soldering #12 wire directly to A123 cells, as well as soldering up #22 balance wires to the same A123 cells. First tin the A123 battery, then tin the #12 wire. Then put the #12 wire over the A123 cell and hit it with the iron. The final solder connection can be made in less than 3 seconds with that 100 watt iron.

Take a look:
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59884

This iron along with my 40 watt temperature controlled soldering station account for 99% of my soldering projects.

If you're working with larger models and have the room, what works well is those Anderson Power Pole connectors, stacked three high. The Anderson Powerpole crimper allows making one connection in less than 15 seconds.

This thread shows an Anderson Power Pole compatible connector that is noteably heavier duty than those Anderson Power Poles. (They've sold about 2500 of them, and now have 2500 left. Don't know if these heavy duty connectors are available anymore. If you need some, check these out
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64539

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Old 04-24-2012, 03:33 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Note - (I post this after doing just this !!)

Do not grip the male Deans in a vice by the pins when soldering up !! ALWAYS grip by the plastic ......

I use Deans because in my EDF cockpit - XT60 is too big to sit clear of the servo .... and i have no problem with them ... they connnect battery to ESC ... and bullets ESC to motor.
Who said hold the deans by the pins?? because i know i didn't.

I DO grip the plastic and NOT the pins silly,i don't know where you get that from but it was not from my post mate.

Use a Vice isn't that a bit over kill as i use the helping hands device which works just fine for me.

I suppose a vice would be ok if you have nothing else like Mole grips or the helping hands,or even a pair of pliers and a rubber band round the handle will do to.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:32 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
...It easily handles soldering #12 wire directly to A123 cells, as well as soldering up #22 balance wires to the same A123 cells. First tin the A123 battery, then tin the #12 wire. Then put the #12 wire over the A123 cell and hit it with the iron. The final solder connection can be made in less than 3 seconds with that 100 watt iron...
DennyV, have you a thread here specifically about soldering A123's? I want to make up a pack for a motorcycle and would like to see some more on it.
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Old 07-19-2012, 03:00 AM   #14
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I thought I had seen a new Deans connector that is made so that it is easy to solder but my gray matter will not tell me where I seen it.Have you seen it?Thanks
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:27 AM   #15
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http://www.headsuprc.com/servlet/the...Coupler/Detail
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Old 07-19-2012, 07:43 AM   #16
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Kinda neat, but just another thing to solder! Now you have to solder 2 things to get one connection.
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:54 PM   #17
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Thats what I been looking for ,Thanks
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Old 07-19-2012, 07:04 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by xmech2k View Post
Kinda neat, but just another thing to solder! Now you have to solder 2 things to get one connection.
Yeah, that's why I've gone to the Anderson Power poles. Or at least this unit: http://www.alliedelec.com/search/pro...x?SKU=70087469.
We use these by the thousands every month at work, before I retired. Never had a problem with any of them.

The Anderson Power Pole connectors are very similar, but are obviously cheaper in construction. The same crimper can be used on both. The Allied connectors and Anderson Powerpole connectors do work together. BUT, the pins are slightly different, so you can not use an Allied pin in a APP plastic shell, or vise versa.(http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64539)

A few weeks ago, I had a melt down with the cheaper Anderson Power Pole connector, it melted down while carrying a continuous 47 Amps on the 12 VDC input of my Cellpro Powerlab 8 charger.

As for the Deans connectors, two club members have had intermittent connections on them. One was on the battery pack for his $$$$ wet turbine models ECU. Caused a dead stick landing. The other was on a 4S Lipo pack for an electric model.

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Old 07-20-2012, 03:28 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by 70sflyer View Post
I thought I had seen a new Deans connector that is made so that it is easy to solder but my gray matter will not tell me where I seen it.Have you seen it?Thanks
Honestly it doesn't matter what the connector is allegedly made of. given that Deans doesn't make crap to begin with..... And no they make a very nice product. But if the quality of your solder and flux are sub-standard, or if you lack the steady hands to nail a good clean joint... The process will be frustrating and a waste of time.


I can solder just about anything at home with a well worn Weller WP35 although I prefer the luxury of the temp control soldering station at work.

Please understand sometimes it's not about the tools or the materials but it is about the hands and recognizing when the right temperature is hit to achieve a solid joint. If I had the time and resources I'd shoot a short video. But right now time and resources are very tight
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Old 07-20-2012, 04:12 AM   #20
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X2.

I enjoy solder such large connectors, but good equipment helps a lot. I had an electronics soldering class in high school and learned I really don't have steady hands.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:32 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by pesmarker View Post
Honestly it doesn't matter what the connector is allegedly made of. given that Deans doesn't make crap to begin with..... And no they make a very nice product. But if the quality of your solder and flux are sub-standard, or if you lack the steady hands to nail a good clean joint... The process will be frustrating and a waste of time.


I can solder just about anything at home with a well worn Weller WP35 although I prefer the luxury of the temp control soldering station at work.

Please understand sometimes it's not about the tools or the materials but it is about the hands and recognizing when the right temperature is hit to achieve a solid joint. If I had the time and resources I'd shoot a short video. But right now time and resources are very tight
IMHO, a lot of the problems some folks have trying to solder is a direct result of trying to solder with cheap or inadequate soldering equipment.

A real master can do a decent job of soldering with just about any soldering iron that can get the target hot enough.

But, trying to solder a #12 wire with a 40 watt soldering iron with no temperature regulation to me is a lesson in futility. This Weller W100PG 100 watt temperature regulated soldering iron will solder just about any heavy duty wiring you might need to do with our electric models. And, will do it fast without melting all the plastic used in these connectors.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59884

Many years ago at work on a new job, I was using a cheap soldering iron without temperature regulation. The tip was cleaned with a standard piece of tissue paper, which I then threw into the trash basket. Didn't know the iron had gotton so hot that it ignited the tissue paper, and I set fire to the trash basket.

Nice way to start a new job.

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