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Old 05-15-2012, 10:17 PM   #26
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I just helped a couple of guys at our flying field fly inverted.
I assume you are rolling to the inverted position, half loops are not as easy as a roll.

1. Roll to inverted, let fly for only a couple of seconds and roll upright.
Do this until the roll to upright is automatic.

Don't try to turn yet.

2. Extend the inverted flight part of the roll to just a few seconds.
While inverted try adjusting the nose angle until the plane maintains level.
When you can roll to inverted and maintain level without the nose going up or down and then roll out, you are ready for turns.

3. Fly your airplane in a large circle around the field upright.
Look at the bank angle.
Roll the plane to the same bank angle but inverted, and push forward on the stick.
The plane should stay level while making a gentle level inverted turn.
Adjust pitch as before.
Roll upright if anything changes for the worse.

Do this until the plane is stable inverted and you can vary the turn rate with increasing amounts of down elevator and bank.

Once you can make a circle in one direction start over and try the other direction.
Now just practice.
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:31 PM   #27
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Old 05-16-2012, 10:41 PM   #28
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BTW is much easier the less dihedral you have. My high-wing trainer has lots of dihedral, and a half-loop is a much easier way to get it inverted cleanly.
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:43 AM   #29
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Thanks PD1,

I'll give that try at couple of mistakes high. Seems like a good approach !

Mark,

Holey moley, what the heck happened ? LOL

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Old 05-18-2012, 01:50 AM   #30
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I've been following this thread and it challenges me to start now to learn inverted flying. not just straight runs ,but figure 8's ,reverse loops ect..ect..and i have the perfect bird to do it...the uproar has huge power,maneuverability+,longer flight time[8+mins] using a lot of throttle,and has the weight to be more steady than the foamy i was using.

of coarse it helps to have another unbuilt kit sitting on the side table just in case i do the inevitable...all planes have an expiration date,i just hope its not this year.

bottom line,I've only tried inverted flying for brief straight runs,and always roll out before I'm settled. using the profile yak foamy also was to light and snaps to wherever i point it.then theres the gang watching that causes me to put off inverted flying. i like the suggestions here and plan to use some of them to get this part of flying down.

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 07-04-2012, 09:27 PM   #31
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NJS my friend, i got to fly a bit today with the uproar and thought of this thread while practicing inverted flying. even though it was a bit windy at time i was getting plenty of practice and haven't been trying as much as i should be. but i spent much of the 3 8min flights flying inverted and trying to turn and stay level in the turn. of coarse i was many mistakes high so any issues and an easy roll out to reset the invert was all fun.

all in all ,a really fun days flying and i felt the satisfaction of trying new moves.....

hope alls well down where you are ,and we really should get together and get some flight time in either at my field or yours. stu

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:35 AM   #32
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Stu, the last couple of trips to the field, I've been doing a lot of just inverted passes trying to make them as straight and even altitude as possible. Today I tried to do the same thing with inverted circles. Not the most exciting flying, but it's very good for building basic skills.

About getting together: Heck yeah! I'm not flying this weekend though. Sauna and RC flying are both nice things on their own, but not together at the same time. 100F heat is KILLING my batts!

Why don't you come to our big nice field and fly the snot out of your PKJ? I'll even bring mine!

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Old 07-07-2012, 04:25 AM   #33
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i was thinking along the same lines but just now decided to charge up a few 3 cells for the aj slick and recharge a few batts for the foamy edge to fly 6 flights in the early am hr's. i'm hard core to get more air time and hope not to be over heating my birds. even though the edge foamy flys great,it is harder to fly inverted right now as it's so touchy .i will try the slick inverted now that it's going to be part of my routine maneuvers i always do. funny,except for the hog bipe,i always push my planes to perform aerobatics...the hog is more a scale flyer and pattern plane.

as far as getting together...i will have to break my habit of putting things off till it's to late,so i'll ride to your field with bungee launcher and funjet,pkj2,and a few other toys to play with...lol.... must say,this hobby brings the kid out of me.

i'll go over the calander with my wife and get back to you. stay cool my friend,stu

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 07-07-2012, 05:27 PM   #34
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I know this is going to sound silly, but it works. Most of the problems in learning to do anything is the fact that we are not focused on what we are doing. Most mishaps are not because we forgot how to fly, but that we just put our brains in neutral after we start something. When learning to fly inverted, tell yourself that you are flying inverted a few times and keep your mind focused on the fact that you are flying inverted. When we learn something new, we mess up because we are not thinking. You roll your plane inverted and because it didn't crash right away, you let your mind go to neutral and you sort of coast along until something happens and you then have to figure out what to do about it. You take longer to figure something out then if you are thinking of it while doing it. Giving it up instead of down while inverted is because you are thinking upright flight even while flying inverted, or you are not thinking at all. You are coasting. Think about what you are doing and just that, nothing else. Forget about what you are doing and you revert to muscle memory and that is what you are used to doing, flying right side up, so you give it up elevator. Just backwards from what you should be giving it, but that is what you have learned so far.

One thing you can do is practice lazy 8's or Cuban 8's, only without the roll in the middle. Stay inverted on the second half of the 8 and just pull out with a pushover instead of rolling upright and pulling out right side up. Stretch it out and make the make the section in the middle longer then normal and push over the top then go down the other side making it longer each time. You wind up going a long ways and making a turnaround at each end of the field while flying a longer section either upright or inverted. Pay attention to each part and keep telling yourself you are flying inverted or upright and concentrate on the whole maneuver and don't let your mind wander. Flying inverted is like anything else, you think about what you are doing at the time and not something else or just coasting.

I told you this is going to sound silly, but by forcing yourself to think about what you are doing ALL the time, you will learn faster and make fewer mistakes. Remember, talking to yourself is not a sign of madness, answering yourself, maybe...................

Ed
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:40 PM   #35
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It seems I'm not nearly as far along as most of you are because I'm hard pressed to fly one inverted lap. I can do it , but it's very sloppy and I too have to kinda "remember" that the plane is inverted.

In another sense I think that that "remembering" that the plane is inverted or however it may be oriented (facing you , inverted, straight up with bottom facing you) can be counterproductive. I think it may be best to "forget" which way the plane is oriented and simply have the ability to make it go the direction you intend eliminates a lot of the thought process. It at least changes the thought process to a simpler method.

I may be all washed up here , but to push stick down or forward to go toward landing gear makes a lot more sense that remembering to "reverse control input" I know that this applies to rudder also whether inverted or not.

I'm not saying at all that I have this ability yet , but I do know that even though I'm not "flying inverted" my plane is in that orientation a lot of the time. I'm practising knife edge now and have heard to "push sticks opposite when rolling into knife edge" , but I can't help but think that eventually it is going to be better to JUST KNOW which way to push that rudder stick to make that plane go that way. It seems actually less to remember and less brain work.

I guess to conclude simply stated that regardless of what orientation it is in , I NEED to know which stick and which direction to move it without thinking AND without having to think "ok, I am inverted" or "ok, I am nose down"

Does this make sense? or am I all washed?
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Old 07-07-2012, 08:21 PM   #36
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nidly welcome to wattflyer!

i think red is spot on with his advise to really focus and stay that way thru all your aerobatic maneuvers. i fly inverted now with confidence and the reason is because i am seriously focused. i haven't tried this hard to learn something new flying in a long time as most stunts i do come second nature to me. of coarse i'm confident in trying to fly inverted straight and level only as of yet....and doing side to side adjustments to get used to the stick in reverse. but one thing red says makes complete sense to remain focused as we must always be prepared for an exit plan. to just fly inverted with out planing an exit strategy would be reckless.

so for me ,its fly high,roll or loop into inverted ,fly straight and level with slight turns....and roll out to reset for the next attempt. i'm not rushing into maneuvers and be sloppy...one step at a time and soon I'll be flying inverted with the same mindset as i do upright flying.

note:except for the pusher parkjet that can very quickly death spiral to destruction,i have good instincts flying and can right any plane out of control as long as theres enough space between plane and groundand theres no mechanical reason for loss of control. so i tried a cuban 8 today without the roll and wound up correcting the sloppy exit at the top end with no difficulty. but again,the attempt was just for fun up high with no risk of loosing control....sloppy isn't fun anymore.

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 07-08-2012, 01:51 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by nidly View Post
It seems I'm not nearly as far along as most of you are because I'm hard pressed to fly one inverted lap. I can do it , but it's very sloppy and I too have to kinda "remember" that the plane is inverted.

In another sense I think that that "remembering" that the plane is inverted or however it may be oriented (facing you , inverted, straight up with bottom facing you) can be counterproductive. I think it may be best to "forget" which way the plane is oriented and simply have the ability to make it go the direction you intend eliminates a lot of the thought process. It at least changes the thought process to a simpler method.

I may be all washed up here , but to push stick down or forward to go toward landing gear makes a lot more sense that remembering to "reverse control input" I know that this applies to rudder also whether inverted or not.

I'm not saying at all that I have this ability yet , but I do know that even though I'm not "flying inverted" my plane is in that orientation a lot of the time. I'm practising knife edge now and have heard to "push sticks opposite when rolling into knife edge" , but I can't help but think that eventually it is going to be better to JUST KNOW which way to push that rudder stick to make that plane go that way. It seems actually less to remember and less brain work.

I guess to conclude simply stated that regardless of what orientation it is in , I NEED to know which stick and which direction to move it without thinking AND without having to think "ok, I am inverted" or "ok, I am nose down"

Does this make sense? or am I all washed?
I hate to tell you this, but this is exactly the reason I said to THINK about what you are doing ALL the time when you are learning something. What you are saying is to just go the end and not think about it, but just do it. THAT is what you are aiming for, but you don't start there. Did you go out and get the hottest 3D ship you could find to learn to fly, or did you start with a trainer. You have to learn how to walk before you can run and flying is the same thing. You take baby steps, you don't just start off running. If you take your time and think about what you are doing, you will advance. If you just try and sit back all relaxed while trying something new, you are asking to get bit, or in this case crash. For the same reason you don't start out flying high speed passes 3 feet off the ground on your first flight, you also don't sit back and relax and not think while trying to learn something new.

A good pilot is confident in his abilities because he has been flying long enough to get the practice he needs to learn something and has performed that enough that he can make it "LOOK" easy, but believe it or not, he is still thinking about what he is doing, but he is relaxed much more then you because he is confident. You only gain that by practice and more practice.

An expert pilot makes things look easy because he is not thinking, OK now I am inverted and I must remember to push the stick to make it go up. He intends to fly inverted so he rolls to inverted and just flies it without thinking every second that he is inverted, BUT that does not mean he is not thinking about what he is doing. He is just aware of what he plane is doing because he told it to do it. He also knows how to control it in different attitudes to make it do what he wants. He is constantly thinking, but he is thinking ahead of the plane. He can react to an upset faster because he doesn't have to think, OK now I need to give it left aileron to get back to level flight, he just moves the stick and the plane reacts to that. He is constantly watching the plane and making it dance to his music while also reacting to natures whims all at the same time.

One thing you must remember. An expert pilot did not get this way overnight, he had to learn just like everyone else. Some people learn faster then others because they have that ability, but none of them were born with this ability to fly like this. This is the end point that you are aiming for, but you can't start here.

A person that cannot learn something is either not thinking, or simply does not know how to learn. Learning itself is a process we have to learn and some people never learn even that. Some people make it look easy to learn because they look like they have a special gift. Maybe they do, but they also learn just like everyone else, they start at the beginning and go from there. They just do it faster.

Sorry I got carried away, but it is much harder to tell someone how to do something then to just go out and do it. I'm also not trying to put anyone down, but I want to make it clear that to learn something, you have to pay attention to what you are doing. You have to constantly think about what yo are doing and look at what the plane is telling you. The plane will talk to you if you will just watch it. When you get to the point that the plane IS talking to you and you can understand what it is telling you, then you will have mastered flight. Until then, you have to think about every move.

Ed
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Old 07-08-2012, 02:09 PM   #38
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Stick time the most important thing, soon enough it'll be a natural, like flyin toward yourself becomes
STICK TIME, always the best time anyway,,get all you can and have Fun,bubsteve


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Old 07-08-2012, 04:35 PM   #39
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mred, I agree with to think about these things (while learning) I think we are actually on the same page (or maybe different pages of same book,lol)

Maybe I'm just a bit impatient and expect to learn this stuff overnight. With having a touch of asperger syndrome or just a very linear learning style , I can't stand to have to read 3-4 sentences thru my brain while flying. It is much faster to read 1 sentence or "just to know" I do agree though it is necessary during the learning process.

Here'd be a good example of me practising knife edge 2 different ways:

plane is going right to left , roll plane right , which way did I move the stick? to the right , did I just rill into knife edge ? Yes. Then move sticks opposite and move left stick left and I can hold knife edge for a bit. In my brain is like a line of text or a flowchart , but it is painfully slow.

plane is already 1/4 turn and top is facing me going from left to right. Which way do I want to point the nose? answer: UP. Move left stick left and hold some knife edge. This is ok for me while the top is facing me , but when the bottom is facing me I need more time to process this in my mind.

As you can see I can't spend a lot of time in this position because the plane is faster than my brain is. I've been practising rudder and knife edge with my slowest plane (pluma) and it does me a lot more good than one of my regulars since things happen so very slow and predictable.

I guess it's mostly just practise, practise. I get frustrated because learning is so slow for me and I expect to pick it up quickly. I can't.
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:36 PM   #40
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I don't think I'm inverted challenged anymore. I flew four batteries today trying to stay inverted the entire pack. First large inverted ovals with bank-and-yank turns, then an attempt at coordinated turns and finally some inverted harrier circles and 8s. It's actually not that hard once you've gotten used to how the plane behaves.

But when I was going to land I almost crashed because I was giving my elevator input backwards!

Practice definitely helps!

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Old 07-09-2012, 12:19 AM   #41
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nidly; I know it can get frustrating at times. Everyone wants to learn things right now and with some people that comes easy. For others not so easy. Everyone is different and learns at their own pace. Don't rush it. It will come IF you are dedicated enough to try every time you go out. You don't have to spend the entire time working on one thing, but do it every time along with other things and it will come. I was lucky when I was younger and learned pretty quick and advanced right on up to advanced pretty fast. I never became a master, but I was a fair pilot back then. I had to relearn everything about 5 years ago after a break and am learning a lot slower now. I am still learning, but that is because I fly mostly gliders and my pattern work suffers from that. I can do the whole OLD pattern now, but sloppy and not up to contest standards by any means. That's OK though, I don't fly contests anymore, so I don't really care, but I do want to get better just for the sake of getting better. I fly inverted fine and don't have any real problems, but I am a little sloppy at times too. I had to practice just like you and everyone else and I am still doing it every time I go out. Just hang in there and it will come. Even though you may be a slower learner then some, just remember this. There are people out there that never learn to fly inverted. Keep at it and it will come.

NJSwede; Sounds like your problem is flying to much of the flight inverted. You get used to that and then have to come back to right side up for landing and you are still programed for inverted flight. Try mixing it up more next time and don't just fly inverted. Throw in a few other things and mix it up. You have to be able to transition from one event to the next and the fastest way to learn this is to do a little bit of everything now. Once you get the inverted flight in your mind, you have to be able to transition or it's not good. Work on the transition now and you should be just fine. It will also be a lot more fun. Just don't go hog wild. You still have to think about what you are doing, so THINK while flying each segment and plan them, don't just go nuts in the sky and fly without thinking. That's the fastest way to a crash that I know of.

Ed
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Old 07-09-2012, 01:42 AM   #42
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Thanks for the encouragement. I remember why I picked this hobby , it's not something I can learn overnight. I have to work at it. One thing is for sure , I have LOTS of fun. I just have a blast flying in my backyard by myself.
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Old 07-09-2012, 08:46 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by fmw View Post
I'm horrible at inverted flight as well. I have one plane - Eflite Eratix - that handles fairly elegantly with very little need for down elevator when inverted. The warbirds, on the other hand, barely escape crashing when I fly them inverted. It isn't as easy as some make it look, is it?
Most warbirds and by this I mean WW1 + WW2 jobs are like their big cousins near all not designed for extended inverted flight. They were designed to "twist and turn" to dog-fight or run-away ! So you are only experiencing what the real boys had !

We are lucky in that our models are usually capable of more than the real version.

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Old 07-10-2012, 02:12 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by mclarkson View Post
For what it's worth, I'm sure 90% of my inverted problems are in my head.

It took me forever to realize that the controls were the same for inverted and normal flight. Right is still right, etc. For the longest time, I was double-translating everything in my head.

I think this is what has been my problem. If I remember as many of you have said that the ailerons work the same, and at least for now forget the rudder, this is getting easier on the sim. Now, for some flight time this weekend!
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Old 07-10-2012, 02:35 AM   #45
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I just flew 5 flights with 3 planes and did at least 1 lap with each of them. The trainer was actually the easiest for some reason. Am I good? no.
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Old 07-14-2012, 05:38 PM   #46
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Got a chance to do a little inverted flying today. The Apprentice does OK, but the least little breeze had me fighting to keep it level. I did manage to get one nice gentle circle in and one passable figure 8.

Practice, practice. practice...

At least, no expiration dates today.
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Old 07-14-2012, 10:08 PM   #47
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Sounds like you guys are getting the hang of it pretty fast. Keep at it and before you know it you will be flying inverted as easy as flying right side up. It's a lot more fun when you can relax while flying the whole flight instead of knees shaking all the time. After you learn this, you can get together with one of your friends and learn formation flying. Now that is a blast...........

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Old 07-14-2012, 11:45 PM   #48
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no expiration dates...lol... very good to hear!

i also got 3 flights in today on the uproar and my inverted flying is coming more natural. i only did a few turns inverted on each flight and more straight flight as it was also windy here in jersey. most attempts today were half loops fly straight and level with side to side stick movement to get the feel for turning inverted but the winds were interfering with the keeping it level....,gotta blame something other than inexperience....lol. did complete 1 full oval circle though.

like mred said,won't be long before those inverted low flyby passes get the blood flowing.

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 07-15-2012, 12:29 AM   #49
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Crashed my 3DHS Edge in a a dumb thumbs episode when flying inverted today. 30 minutes of work with some CA should bring her back to life.

AMA #959089
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Old 07-15-2012, 02:00 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by mred View Post
Sounds like you guys are getting the hang of it pretty fast. Keep at it and before you know it you will be flying inverted as easy as flying right side up. It's a lot more fun when you can relax while flying the whole flight instead of knees shaking all the time. After you learn this, you can get together with one of your friends and learn formation flying. Now that is a blast...........

Ed
It's funny how that works. I started doing what I would call a spiral dive a few weeks ago (need to find a list of maneuvers and find the real term). Basically, full aileron, full up elevator until I go into a corkscrew toward the ground. I'll wings level and pull out to level flight at about 10 feet. First couple of times had me holding my breath. Now, it doesn't even raise my pulse.

Inverted is another story. Adrenaline all the way.
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