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Pusher Park Jets For all pusher jets and jet-like models.

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Old 03-18-2013, 07:27 PM   #1
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Default New life into a beat up 50mm EDF T45 - pusher

Here's the sorry T45 ..









Cut a slot in upper inside of duct ...



Set up a beam mount for the slot ..





Extend motor wires to ESC at front of model ..



Fitted ....









Motor is a 250 Heli motor ... 3700kv ....

Tests with 1800mAh 3S Zippy Compact. My Fuselage was modified up front for such LiPo's when it was an EDF ...

4.5x4.5 Prop
44A
Over 450W

The voltage sag is excessive and LiPo is being hammered ..... so either a higher C rated LiPo is needed or use a lower kv motor.
The motor is one of the pair I had fitted to my infamous Parkjet Twin ... the power draw then was over 110A and too much for the PKJ Twin set-up.
BUT - the set-up shows substantial thrust capability ... while holding the model - she was pushing VERY hard against my hold. She would be quick I'm sure.
Trouble is the motor mount then had problem ... the rivets holding the L plate to the bracket worked loose with the thrust. The mount will need replacing, but I set the beam so that I could do this if necessary.
Balance ? Perfect with the 1800 3S and servos in original positions ... ESC pushed into the upper area immediately behind canopy.
I'm really looking fwd to fitting a new mount and getting her in the air ...

Nigel

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Old 03-18-2013, 07:43 PM   #2
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Thanks for the tip Nigel,

I was thinking about doing the very same thing on my tired Red Arrows T-45. Have a Grayson Super Mega V2 (2550) that I could use. Where did you find the bolt-on sandwich bracket for the stick motor mount ? Looks like it stands-off around 30-40mm out the back? 6x4 e prop?

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Old 03-18-2013, 08:33 PM   #3
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The mount is the HXT Alloy Metal mount from Hobby King ... go to Electric Motors ... Motor Mounts ..... halfway down first page.

BUT note that the mount is brittle ... I broke one on a Parkjet before. The one in photos above was made by local metals guy - but proves to be not so good ... he riveted the L to the original HXT bracket.

I'm hoping that being in the duct - will protect the alloy mount ... I've just ordered 2 more. Plus a Rare-Bear motor to fit with 4S instead of the 3700kv motor ... bringing amps draw down.

Nigel

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Old 03-19-2013, 12:09 AM   #4
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I might just experiment with mounting the the motor on ply directly to the aft with hot glue. Outrunner versus inrunner like my profile foamies. Have a 50 amp esc available for 4S. Then try to balance with lipo in the cavernous cabin. I'll at least give it a look.

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Old 03-19-2013, 02:58 AM   #5
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Okay,

I did it but will it fly? Heck, given enough power,a brick will fly, right ?- LOL

Mounted a Grayson Super Mega V2 off the hind end. The x mount is screwed into hardwood then to a slightly larger piece that covers the thrust hole. This piece is hot glued. Seems pretty solid. Of course, she's grossly tail heavy as expected. But since the forward cabin is so large, I was able to load a 2200 3S 25C lipo in there. Actually balances pretty good but the AUW has got to be at least 2X what the edf version is. My scale is broken ut just handling it , I can tell. Will go with a MAS 6x4e and see what happens.

Probably should drill a couple cheater holes so the air can flow through.




-Hawk

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Old 03-19-2013, 08:28 AM   #6
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Only reservation I have with the plate ply mount is the blocking of the duct. The inlets on the model are large and I reckon if air cannot flow freely will present a brick-wall to forward flight. With the beam mount as I did - the duct is literally as clear as with an EDF ... so air should be able to feed the prop as well as cooling the motor.

I considered using an X of ply across back end - but then would mean I cannot change / service motor easily. This metal mount although brittle - allows me to remove mount and motor in one piece and access is good.

I too can balance with a 2200 3S or a 1600 4S up front ... but I'm going to hold back on the 4S test till I get new motor and mount in place. I'm very worried about the present mount. It is loose on those rivets and being alloy - would not take much to pull free. I have considered breaking the rivets and replacing with countersunk self-tappers into the wood as well. Might just try that today. If it works - then she's a go'er !

Would be nice to see her fly again.

Nigel

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Old 03-19-2013, 01:16 PM   #7
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OK .... broke away the mount from beam plates and drilled out the rivets. To ensure beam doesn't split - I decided to use beam plates as well.

So drill out mount and beam plate to take 3mm self-tappers into the beam ... replaced beam plates bolts with M2.5 x 16 bolts and nuts ...

Fitted plates to beam, mount + one washer to give touch of downthrust .. bolted all up after having soaked CA into the wood to harden it up.

She's rock solid now ... ready to go ... touch of paint here and there to cover up some patches ....







Just have to wait weather now !

Nigel

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Old 03-19-2013, 01:57 PM   #8
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Looks good Nigel,

I do share the the air flow concern you mentioned in blocking the exit tube. Going to drill some holes on the sides of the intakes to direct flow in line over the tail. There is a small hole for the wires at the back end. I 'll try it and see what happens. Man, this baby is heavy with the 2200 mah lipo in there. Balance seems pretty good.I recon she weighs about 17-18 oz.

-Hawk

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Old 03-19-2013, 05:16 PM   #9
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I swapped out the 4.5 x 4.5 prop to a 4.1 x 4.1 .... made big difference to amps draw ... and SCREAM !!

The volts were much better at WOT .. showing 10.4v on the 3S and 34A ... 12.3v and 56A on the 4S (that's not so good).

The prop was still pushing hard and will definitely have her going reasonably. I honestly think the duct being clear allows the prop to draw air and once flying - I expect the duct to assist even more by directing the air direct into it ...

Nigel

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Old 03-19-2013, 06:07 PM   #10
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Nigel,

Looking forward to hearing about your test results. Will try to give mine a go tomorrow if the weather holds up. An interesting adventure to say the least but it took me all of an hour to re-configure and setup and 0$. The T-45 is my favorite of my small Skyangel squadron. Hopefully, she'll see some more time in the air as a pusher.

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Old 03-19-2013, 08:10 PM   #11
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I keep looking at the other 50's - but read so much crap about mods here, mods there - I stick with my T45''s ...

If the pusher conversion works well on my old T45 wreck - then I may look at barebones kits of the others to "Pusher'ise" them ...

I had a couple of Mirage 2000's many years ago with 61 glow up front - talk about quick ! but a pig to land. The 50mm Mirage tempts me ....

Never know - may even end up with replacement for Parkjet somewhere here ...

Nigel

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Old 03-20-2013, 03:12 AM   #12
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Nigel,

Made it to the field this afternoon around 16:30. 70F deg temp.

My buddy, a French MD-80 pilot and his son were there flying their new FMS 1700mm Corsair. Gorgeous plane. Started off with my newly re-furbished Airfield/FMS C-182. All good. Then, the Dynam C-310, a real gem. Now it was time for the test of the T-45 pusher. Video included below

-Grayson Super Mega V2 w/ 40 amp esc
-11.1 2200mah 3S 25C lipo
-6x4 APC

Wow ! Was a blast but scary. Underhand toss. Managed to loop her over and back through the hangar. Didn't touch a thing and I don't know how. Over the road and then back over the field again. Yikes ! Took everything I could do to keep her from augering.

Now I know what adjustments need to be made. I need some ballast in the front though I thought she had balance ok. Wrong. Going to drop a couple of AA batteries in the nose. With the power she now has, I'not concerned aout a little extra weight. I can say she does indeed have plenty of power to spare. Crazy power. Recon she's a lot faster than the edf version.

Will get her dialed in the next time out. Lots of potential !
http://youtu.be/ZloBwmuFKT0

-Hawk

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Old 03-20-2013, 08:53 AM   #13
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Ha Ha Ha ...... I know the feeling well !! My first success with my overpowered Parkjet was similar ......

The funny thing is - the thing to do just escapes you - Close the throttle !! You are so intent on getting the thing under control - like me - you forget there's a throttle.

OK - I have a theory that pushers require more downthrust than a tractor ... the fuselage inertia means pusher tail is trying to overtake the nose ... so needs downthrust to force model to fly the wing instead of the thrust.

Watching yours makes me look at adding another washer in the mount !!

So at least we know there's potential there for some hot stuff ! The EDF version with me has hit a wall at 140kph ... so maybe this will break that, get her faster.

Well done on managing to save her !!

Keep updating so we can all benefit and have a laugh watching the vids !!

Cheers
Nigel

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Old 03-20-2013, 03:17 PM   #14
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I was hoping to go flying today - but woke up to snow falling and wind starting ...

So decided that cosmetic update of the old girl was in order ....

Cut away old to square face ...



Laminate up profile pieces and GG them together while clamped...



Next photos show marrying to fuselage and creating the canopy step ..







I use two cocktail stick pins at front of canopy ..



Marking out for step to canopy ..



Once cut - make holes for pegs ... sand to match .... paint.

Nigel

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Old 03-20-2013, 03:57 PM   #15
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Must be nice to have good tools and a good work area. All my good stuff has been in storage for over a year. Need to get it out. Been working with primitive make shift tools and have confined to my office when the wife is at home. One time, I spilled a tiny drop of epoxy on the kitchen table and that was it !

Fuse re-config looking great.

It's Springtime in Texas but that ususally means wind. March is our windiest month. So when it dies , I head to field on a moment's notice. Might give the T-45 another go today if the weather holds. Will try not to fly through the hangar this time. I know if our President would have seen that I'd probably be facing a suspension. Yikes !

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Old 03-20-2013, 04:27 PM   #16
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My proper model den is too cold as it's of the front Porch area ... so I'm modelling in my 'Home Office' ... the workbench is my really nice office desk !!

Second floor of my house is still with builder working - so gives me chance to use one of the finished rooms for this.

I added another washer to the motor mount and now I have a noticeable downthrust to the motor. After watching your vid - it was first thing I did !

Nigel

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Old 03-20-2013, 05:07 PM   #17
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Good idea on the down thrust. I should have known this from my earlier profile foamie PJ's. Maybe 2-3 degrees with a shim. Looks nice out there so far today so I may try the front ballast making her slightly nose heavy and re-test. Of course, far away from the hangar ! Underhand toss worked good. Arm clears in time to avoid prop contact.

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Old 03-20-2013, 07:23 PM   #18
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New nose painted and white lined ...







I should have applied water-based primer first before the spray top coat - the propellant solvent in the spray attacks the foam ... causes similar to a rash. But I was too impatient !

Anyway - she looks the part in the air ! If it works well - I'll do a proper job and tart up the rest as well.

Still have to find the Parkjet replacement .....

Nigel

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Old 03-21-2013, 02:41 AM   #19
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Nigel,

Your nose mod looks great !

I'll post another vid later but I did get out there today for a re-test. Loaded 2 AA batteries in the nose for ballast. Presto ! it worked. This baby has new life ! Trimmed her out and she wasn't wonky at all. Flew great. And I must say, very fast ! But late in the flight, in a dumb thumbs moment, I crashed her. Landed flat on her belly but there was virtually no damage. Not even a broken prop.

Threw her up for another go and proceeded to torque roll her into the ground. Must have been a twist of my wrist on the underhand toss. Motor dislodged, broken prop but no airframe damage whatsoever. That's okay. I now can go ahead and include a couple degrees of down thrust when I re-mount the motor.

There's life in the old gal ! Sure outflew my 50mm F-16. I'm pumped. Thinking I'm might even get a new T-45 airframe and do it right but it wouldn't be the same as re-birth . Vid later.

-Hawk

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Old 03-21-2013, 09:31 AM   #20
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Default Thrust test results ...

Today is not flying weather - air is -5C, wind chill is - You gotta be joking !!

So indoor tests ...

Lets compare my hot-rod T45 EDF - 5000kv + 6 blade on 4S, clocked at 140kph.

AUW : 563gr
Thrust initial : 710gr
Thrust after 30secs : 630gr


She's fast ... but not as fast as I thought she would be ... after months - still same at about 140kph.

Now my old beat up girl with the 3700kv + 4.1x4.1 TJ sport prop .....

3S 2200 35C Turnigy
AUW : 625gr
Thrust initial : 800gr
Thrust after 30secs : 710gr

4S 1600 35C Zippy Compact (tired used !)
AUW : 618gr
Thrust initial : 1030gr
Thrust after 30secs : 960gr


WOW @#$%^& WOW !

Only problem with the 4S - is she is really pulling amps and the ESC would give out if pushed too long ... it's a HobbyWing Pro 45A ... needs a 60A on the 4S ... but on 3S she's fine. I could fly the 4S ... IF I can keep myself from WOT all the time !!

My question now - is downthrust too much given that this thing will mooooove !!

Dahawk ... what is the KV of the motor you are using ? Once you get her dialled in - can you get some straight level passes for the ol'doppler ?

Cheers
Nigel

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Old 03-21-2013, 01:18 PM   #21
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Nigel,

Here's a vid of Test #2: http://youtu.be/Y7nD5MF06tY

I'm stoked !


The GH Super Mega V2 motor specs?: http://www.graysonhobby.com/catalog/...tor-p-585.html

Still going with 6x4 APC.

Not ready for 4S testing yet. Wow ! She'll scream !

Maybe two tests from now. Next up will be to include 2 deg of down thrust. The 2200 3S provides alot of flight time.

The weather for the next few days is expected to be crappy, at least by our standards. T-storms. That's okay though. I need the downtime for repairs on the squadron.

Hope you can get out there and fly soon !

Cheers,

Hawk

Wounded Warrior Fun Fly - Aug 16th ,2014 - Grapevine TX - Info link: https://support.woundedwarriorprojec...ising/RCPilots
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:56 PM   #22
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Love the underarm launch !

I think you need a better camera !! Why not do as I do for most - a Keychain camera with Velcro onto a baseball cap peak ? About $5 for the camera ... no need for HD ....

Weather is crap for next days .... but looking fwd to this baby in the air ... I'm hoping that my set-up will do the 150kph and beat my EDF version ... maybe even higher ... theoretically I should get about 180kph ... but I suspect the airframe will hold her back.

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Old 03-21-2013, 10:29 PM   #23
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Anxious to see your results Nigel ! Yeah, Underhand worked best for me. Was a little concerned about prop bites and my hand seems to clear faster this way plus I can get a better hold on the fuse. Will look into a better camera set-up. I have an HK mini keychain cam but never tried it.

After this one, I think I may go ahead and convert the Katana. I have not had great success with this plane yet. Even with the Don's 4800 4S setup. I think it would fly better as a pusher given the proper amount of power. Now I have to go back and re-install the ailrons on the F-16. What a mistake it was to go with elevons only on that plane. Zero roll rate.

Big T-storms rolling in here ! Everything big in Texas. Fix up time !

Cheers,

Hawk

P.S. Just bought a GWS Formosa II F3A pattern ship ARF - USD $50.00 Figured, what the heck, could not resist since I have everything I need from my T-28(RIP) !
P.P.S.- The plane I really have a hankering for is the 1200mm HK Top RC Focke-Wulf 190 Butcher Bird. What a beaute !

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Old 03-22-2013, 07:52 AM   #24
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Keycam's nifty little machines ... I have a couple ...

Don't let battery go dead !! Simple Velcro on the cap peak is good enough .. only thing to remember is field of view is not as much as your eyes .. so when doing runs from one side to another - you tend to lead the model with your eyes - putting it to the edge of camera view ... takes mind over matter to make you keep head toward model and eyes leading !!





I keep looking at the F16 in 50mm ... one of the few US fighters I like ... given the problems of sorting it to high power set-up in EDF ... maybe pusher is way to go with it ? I'm surprised that an F15 50mm hasn't been made ... that would be a good one I reckon.
The Depron F15 I made is really good and proves the aileron / tail link-up in small model ... the pitch control is excellent and roll rate is WOW !

I'm not surprised about your F16 ... the plane has a lifting body config - so you are not only fighting the wing / tail surfaces - but also a large fuselage area ...

Katana in my eyes is a mini 'Stinger' ..... and judging by reports not as fast or capable as it's 64mm cousin. For a few $ more - the Stinger may be a better bet ?
Screamer is not on my list I'm afraid ... too many delta type wings already out there ... so a hard market to enter.

The 190D ............. one of my all-time favs in WW2 birds. I had a Rojair 190D with Enya 35 Glow up front years ago ... loved it. I keep looking at plans for an electric version ...
HK does a parkflyer sized one - Pirate FW190 ... but Latvian post limits refuse it......

I'm due to travel out again shortly - so hoping I can get the T45P as I now call it ... T45 P for Pusher ...... airborne before I go ... I also have the Pkj twin to fly.

Cheers
Nigel

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Old 03-22-2013, 12:05 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by dahawk View Post
Must be nice to have good tools and a good work area. ....................
Thought you'd like to see my Office Desk !!





Nigel

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