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Old 08-04-2012, 06:41 PM   #1
Mr.GFC
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Red face How do you determine how many watts a battery has?

This is the battery:
Capacity : 1250mAh
Constant discharge: 30C
Burst rate: 40C (15sec)
Configuration : 2S 7.4v

Can some give me the formula for determining the watts for this battery...

Yes, I've read the sticky threads, but haven't been able to find the section again that tells you 'how to' do this.

I'm wanting to use it with this motor:
Specs.
Turns: 8T
Voltage: 2S Lipoly
RPM/V: 3100kv
Internal resistance: 0.18 Ohm
Max Loading: 5A
Max Power: 42W

As you can see, the max power is 42W.
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Old 08-04-2012, 07:34 PM   #2
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simplest thing is to look at the current capacity of the battery. You work that out by multiplying the mAh by the 'C' rating then dividing by 1000.. so your battery is good for 1250 x 30 /1000 = 37.5 Amps

As your motor is only rated for 5 amps then your battery is much higher rated, it wont even work up a sweat... In fact I'd say that the battery is very much on the big and heavy side for any plane powered by that little tiny motor.

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Old 08-04-2012, 07:50 PM   #3
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It's actually going into a 17" F-22 Raptor with a 45/40 prop.
I'm currently running that motors big brother:
Voltage: 2~3S Lipoly
RPM/V: 2750kv
Internal resistance: 0.22 Ohm
Max Loading: 5A
Max Power: 39W
With this battery:
Capacity: 1000mAh
Voltage: 3S1P / 3 Cell / 11.1v
Discharge: 25C Constant / 35C Burst
and am getting about 7 minutes of flight time/battery.

The reason for the step-down, was to go to a smaller battery. On the bigger motor, it just doesn't have the vertical on a 2C as it does for with the 3C, so I thought I'd try the smaller motor, which has the exact same dimensions as the bigger one but is rated for only 2C with a higher kv, so that I can get lighter...

Battery wise, I seem to always go a bit bigger than needed, seems to provide a bit more security for flight-times as well as being heavier for stability. We fly in high winds down here in Lima, Peru and the weight gives me better penetration when crossing the ridge line. (going from behind the dynamic wind line-into the wind.)

Thanks for answering.
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Old 08-04-2012, 09:05 PM   #4
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Sorry but you will be way down on power and thrust with your 2S set up.. about half the thrust of the 3S one and less than half of the power, you will be lucky to stay in the air Fitting a bigger prop might get back some of the performance.

You should probably try lower mAh bateries to get the weight down, or alternatively go with a larger (physically larger and heavier) motor to give more power.
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Old 08-04-2012, 09:45 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Mr.GFC View Post
This is the battery:
Capacity : 1250mAh
Constant discharge: 30C
Burst rate: 40C (15sec)
Configuration : 2S 7.4v

Can some give me the formula for determining the watts for this battery...

Yes, I've read the sticky threads, but haven't been able to find the section again that tells you 'how to' do this.

I'm wanting to use it with this motor:
Specs.
Turns: 8T
Voltage: 2S Lipoly
RPM/V: 3100kv
Internal resistance: 0.18 Ohm
Max Loading: 5A
Max Power: 42W

As you can see, the max power is 42W.
The watts output of these batteries is directly controlled by the motor and the prop you connect to it. As others indicated, these batteries do have a maximum safe output current based on the term identified as "C".

A description of "C" and how to use it is in this thread:
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65869

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Old 08-04-2012, 11:01 PM   #6
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To answer your original formula question: Watts = volts x amps.

For your 2s motor, 7.4V x 5A = 37 watts. (42W is probably a short burst rating).
Ideally, you need around 100W per pound, for good performance, meaning that your new motor will only pull a model of about 6 ounces (170g).
I'm guessing a 17" foamy would be significantly lighter than that, so you might still be ok.

Although the rpm per volt is higher than your old motor, the max rpm will be lower, due to lower voltage.
ie 3s x 2750kV = 30,525 rpm... 2s x 3100kV = 22,940 rpm, so new motor runs 7,500 rpm slower than old one.
You'd probably have to re-prop it to compensate, as JetPlaneFlyer said, but even with a lighter 2s battery, it probably wont make up for the lower power.

For comparison, my UM Stryker uses a 2s 3000kV motor, 3.75x3 prop, 200mAh battery, weighs 57g and goes like a rocket !
A high-revving, low power setup is fine with a very light model but from what you said about high winds, the 'bigger/heavier motor + more power' answer might be best.
Flying lightweight micro models in strong winds, isnt much fun.

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Old 08-04-2012, 11:05 PM   #7
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Flying lightweight Strykers in strong winds, on the other hand, is tons of fun.

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Old 08-04-2012, 11:21 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by sparky1963 View Post
For your 2s motor, 7.4V x 5A = 37 watts. (42W is probably a short burst rating).
Bear in mind that 7.4v is the nominal rating. A 2s battery fully charged is 8.4v and even under full load a good battery should hold 7.6V initially... so 42W is not unrealistic at all.

Though from the stats quoted it seems that the motor is being run well above it's max amp rating. To flatten a 1000mAh battery in 7 minutes means pulling an average of around 8.5A.. I get that little motor is getting a bit 'toasty'.

Steve
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:34 PM   #9
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Going back to 'how much power is in a battery?'...

Remembering that watts = volts x amps...
Your new battery can supply 1250mA x 30 = 37.5A, so 7.4 volts x 37.5 amps = 277.5 watts.
Your existing battery can supply 1000mA x 25 = 25A, so 11.1V x 25A = also 277.5 watts.

As Kyle said, the amount of current your motor draws, will depend on the prop you use (there's a complex minefield of prop selection criteria, which is covered elsewhere in this forum).

The 1000mAh and 1250mAh ratings, are actual battery capacity, so 1250mAh will give longer endurance than 1000mAh (obviously).
1000mAh provides 1A for an hour, at 'normal' discharge rate. 1250mAh provides 1.25A for an hour, at normal discharge rate. (Simple).
The 25C/30C rating, is a measure of how much quicker the battery is capable of discharging, safely, without overheating or blowing up.

It should be possible to predict endurance, based on capacity:
Your motor draws 5A, which is 4C (1.25A x 4). Therefore if 'normal' discharge is 1.25A for an hour, then at 4C, it will discharge in 1/4 of the time - ie 15 minutes.
At 30C, it will discharge in 1/30th of that time - ie 2 minutes !
Of course, that's only in an ideal world. Actual times will be less, because of battery variables and inefficiency.

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Old 08-05-2012, 12:24 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by mclarkson View Post
Flying lightweight Strykers in strong winds, on the other hand, is tons of fun.
LOL
When I joined this club in 2004, I was the only club member flying electrics. Now, those guys that fly the giant gassers are pulling out their Strykers when its way to windy to fly those $$$$ giant scale models, and having a real ball with them.

One guy last week spun his fast foamie right into the ground, picked it up, launched and flew it for another few minutes. Can't do that with a $$$$ model!

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Old 08-05-2012, 02:36 AM   #11
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I am currently running the battery down to an average of 3.75 per cell (11.25V). It takes 7 minutes on the clock and that's running flat out. The motor doesn't get too hot to touch either. I have found that if I go past that, it starts losing power rapidly and it will cut out before I can get it back on deck sometimes. The cliff here is a hhhh, to get up and down when it doesn't get back on top.

I thought the kv was the RPM's... now I see what you are talking about. It's the RPM/V. Did not know that part. Man, you learn something every day. Luckily, I was able to cancel the smaller motors from the order.

So, my next question is this: I have a small 2k max digital scale. I built a small frame for it that has a motor mount on it. With a motor mounted and the scale zeroed out, when I run the motor, is this an accurate test for static thrust?

I'll measure the wind tomorrow to let yall know what it actually is. All though it was rather light today. Maybe tomorrow, it'll get back to what the average is. We fly on a 900' long open cliff line with a 246' drop to the beach. There's 1 light post and a warning sign. Other than that, the palm trees are 50 yards or so,back from the flight line. If you use google maps search for 'Pz Ghandi, Cercado de Lima, Lima, Perú'
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Old 08-05-2012, 03:04 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Mr.GFC View Post
I am currently running the battery down to an average of 3.75 per cell (11.25V). It takes 7 minutes on the clock and that's running flat out. The motor doesn't get too hot to touch either. I have found that if I go past that, it starts losing power rapidly and it will cut out before I can get it back on deck sometimes. The cliff here is a hhhh, to get up and down when it doesn't get back on top.

I thought the kv was the RPM's... now I see what you are talking about. It's the RPM/V. Did not know that part. Man, you learn something every day. Luckily, I was able to cancel the smaller motors from the order.

So, my next question is this: I have a small 2k max digital scale. I built a small frame for it that has a motor mount on it. With a motor mounted and the scale zeroed out, when I run the motor, is this an accurate test for static thrust?

I'll measure the wind tomorrow to let yall know what it actually is. All though it was rather light today. Maybe tomorrow, it'll get back to what the average is. We fly on a 900' long open cliff line with a 246' drop to the beach. There's 1 light post and a warning sign. Other than that, the palm trees are 50 yards or so,back from the flight line. If you use google maps search for 'Pz Ghandi, Cercado de Lima, Lima, Perú'
Hello again, welcome to wattflyer!

As for me, I NEVER run my batteries by more than about 2/3 charge, leaving about 1/3 charge in the battery. Why?, because one cell could go flat before the other cells, you risk potential battery damage. And, if you've got a bad day, and do more acrobatics or similar than usual your battery will have a little reserve energy left.

As for static thrust, I've got a fishing tackle type of digital scale. Just put the model on its wheels, tie a small rope around the tail and digital scale. Then power up the motor and see what you get. Simple, and it works. Check out those electric motor calculators. A number of them are around, the one I use is www.motocalc.com, free for 30 days, then $39. Also a lot of the other calculators with less capability are FREE.

Just looked at the average temperature of Lima Peru. Not to much below 60F and not to much over 80F year round. Nice! Around here in Wisconsin, we nearly 100F last month, and we can get to below zero in Winter. What is the altitude of Lima Peru?

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Old 08-05-2012, 03:28 AM   #13
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Lima is on the coast, so it's pretty much sea level, depending on where you are. The cliffs where we fly are 264' +/- high, based on my GPS from when I was paragliding.

I use a Electrifly CellMatch. The level I quoted before is shown as 2/3rds spent as well.

I looked at the link. It doesn't have any of the Turnigy motors or any of the batteries that we use. Down here, everything pretty much comes from HobbyKing. I'll download it and see what I can do with it though.

Here's a link to the photo album I created for the flight-line here in Lima, Peru
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Old 08-05-2012, 04:07 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Mr.GFC View Post
I am currently running the battery down to an average of 3.75 per cell (11.25V).
That's perfect. I try never to run mine below that, either. Better to just buy more batteries.

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Old 08-05-2012, 08:55 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by sparky1963 View Post
The 1000mAh and 1250mAh ratings, are actual battery capacity, so 1250mAh will give longer endurance than 1000mAh (obviously).
1000mAh provides 1A for an hour, at 'normal' discharge rate. 1250mAh provides 1.25A for an hour, at normal discharge rate. (Simple).
Well yeah but as the batteries were different cell counts it's not that simple. If the plane needs (say) 100W average to fly then to produce that 100W the 3s battery will pull less amps than the 2s battery (nominally 13.5A for the 2s and 9A for the 3s)

So in fact the 1000mAh 3s will have a theoretical duration of 6.67 minutes
The 1250mAh 2s will have a theoretical duration of 5.56 minutes. So the smaller mAh battery lasts longer at the same power level

The important factor with batteries is the energy stored in them. This is not the same as amp hours, amp hours is not a measure of energy. To find the energy stored you need to multiply amp hours by battery voltage which gives you Watt-Hours which is a measure of energy.

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Old 08-05-2012, 01:37 PM   #16
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Steve,

Thanks for connecting the dots on this topic. It's all starting to make perfect sense to me now. Given the 1000mah/1250mah scenario described above, what then will a change in prop pitch have for Mr. GFC ?

Kyle, I agree with you on flying in the wind. When it'sreal breezy here in Texas, I'm flying my scratchuilt foam "prop in the slot" parkjets and litte edf's while the big gassers sit.

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Old 08-05-2012, 03:11 PM   #17
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The effect of changing pitch is hard to pin down exactly, some experimentation is usually required. The direct effect in a static thrust test is that more pitch will pull more amps, and less pitch less amps. In flight more pitch should give more top speed but go too far and the blades may stall at slow speed making acceleration sluggish.

As for what gives best duration, that's hard to say. Although fine pitch pulls less amps in a static test it might be inefficient at flying speed so run the battery down quicker. Rule of thumb is that a Pitch/Diameter (P/D) ratio of about 0.6 -0.75 is a good overall compromise. Many models will use finer or coarser pitches if optimum low or high speed performance is the goal. 3D and slow fliers typically have P/D ratio around 0.5, speed models close to 1

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Old 08-05-2012, 05:04 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
Hello again, welcome to wattflyer!
Just looked at the average temperature of Lima Peru. Not to much below 60F and not to much over 80F year round. Nice! Around here in Wisconsin, we nearly 100F last month, and we can get to below zero in Winter. What is the altitude of Lima Peru?
(Sea Level. Lima is on th coast.)
The weather is another reason that I moved here. I have RSD and the weather affects it a lot. It never actually rains in Lima. (which I hate, because I love the rain.) and there is never a dramatic change in temperature. The most that it does is a light drizzle during winter, which the locals freak out over.

Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
The important factor with batteries is the energy stored in them. This is not the same as amp hours, amp hours is not a measure of energy. To find the energy stored you need to multiply amp hours by battery voltage which gives you Watt-Hours which is a measure of energy.

Steve
Could you put this into a simple formula like you did with your first response. "You work that out by multiplying the mAh by the 'C' rating then dividing by 1000.. so your battery is good for 1250 x 30 /1000 = 37.5 Amps"
Since in a way, that was the original question... Is your first response how to determine amp hours? You called it Current Capacity....
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Old 08-05-2012, 05:31 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Mr.GFC View Post
Could you put this into a simple formula like you did with your first response. "You work that out by multiplying the mAh by the 'C' rating then dividing by 1000.. so your battery is good for 1250 x 30 /1000 = 37.5 Amps"
Since in a way, that was the original question... Is your first response how to determine amp hours? You called it Current Capacity....
Yes, my first response was how to work out maximum current capacity in amps. To work out maximum power in watts just multiply the peak amps (as calculated with the formula I gave you) by battery voltage.

For example:
  • 1250 x 30 /1000 = 37.5 Amps
  • 37.5 amps x 7.4 Volts = 277.5 Watts of power
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Old 08-05-2012, 08:30 PM   #20
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To get back to the original question " How do you determine how many watts a battery has?" is a rather ambiguous question. A battery has energy, not watts. Watts is a product of current and voltage and you can extract that energy from the battery very quickly or very slowly. If you have a 12 volt battery and you discharge it at 1000 amps, you have a 12000 watt burst of energy. Now it may not last long but it is still 12000 watts. You could also discharge it at 1 ampere and then only have 12 watts. Perhaps you need to reword the question so we know what you really want.
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Old 08-05-2012, 08:56 PM   #21
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actually, JetPlaneFlyer answered the question completely.
The question stemmed the fact that some motors state things such as Max Power: 42W
which is in the original question.
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