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Old 09-03-2012, 11:50 PM   #1
DCDetector
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Default Suggestions for a huge RTF trainer to handle wind

I'm looking for suggestions to handle southwest Kansas wind(average 14 mph) electric trainer. Right now I fly a E-Flite Apprentices 15e and a Dynam Cessna 182(51" wingspan) but only on less windy days. I think If I had a good sized and heavy plane the wind wouldn't be such a factor. I'd like to find a electric RTF in the 80"-100" wingspan preferably a scale Cessna 182/152 or along that line, but any that fits the RTF and 80-100+ wingspan would be OK.

Ideas/Suggestions?

Thanks

I did buy a RichTop Cessna 61.4" wingspan 3lb weight RTF that should be here next weekend, but I'm still thinking something bigger and heavier would be better.
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:25 AM   #2
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First - True scale Cessna's are crappy trainers IMHO.
Second - Heavy sure does help a bit on wind but again that means fast. Faster flying speed, faster landing speed, faster stall speed. All of those factors are poor criteria for beginners.

The Apprentice you have actually handles the wind pretty well. Early mornings and late evenings are better times if those work for you.

They really don't make any RTF models in the 80"+ span size anyway.

The best thing - is to just learn how airplanes react to the wind. It takes a while...

The BEST wind fliers are wings. They handle the wind well and are very durable so if you do crash it is generally less damage.

Mike
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:36 AM   #3
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I agree with Mike, The Cessna makes a perfect full scale trainer but not so much for R/C. I have the top flite 1/5th scale C-182 and trust me, it is not a trainer aircraft!

I would recommend the Electric Nexstar. at 68" it's a pretty big bird but is not sold as an RTF. They do have some combo deals though to get you close to ready to fly.

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Old 09-04-2012, 12:54 AM   #4
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+1 on wings or any fast, low drag plane to handle winds better. PZ Stryker comes to mind in an RTF.

More power in your trainers will also help. Say you are happily flying into a 15mph wind. Your airspeed is 25 but your ground speed is only 10. When you turn down wind you'll need to quickly accelerate the plane to get back to your 25 mph airspeed. Your ground speed will now be 40mph. It takes power to go from 10 to 40mph quickly!

You may be able to go up a step in your prop size and use a larger, higher C battery to get more power from your stock set up.

Gyros or flight stabilizers can help with turbulence during TO and landing but they don't solve the problem.

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Old 09-04-2012, 02:29 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by pmullen503 View Post
+1 on wings or any fast, low drag plane to handle winds better. PZ Stryker comes to mind in an RTF.
+2

Wind I can't fly a Stryker in is wind I can't stand up in anyway.

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Old 09-04-2012, 02:48 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by pmullen503 View Post
+1 on wings or any fast, low drag plane to handle winds better. PZ Stryker comes to mind in an RTF.

More power in your trainers will also help. Say you are happily flying into a 15mph wind. Your airspeed is 25 but your ground speed is only 10. When you turn down wind you'll need to quickly accelerate the plane to get back to your 25 mph airspeed. Your ground speed will now be 40mph. It takes power to go from 10 to 40mph quickly!

You may be able to go up a step in your prop size and use a larger, higher C battery to get more power from your stock set up.

Gyros or flight stabilizers can help with turbulence during TO and landing but they don't solve the problem.
The air speed isn't going to drastically change in a down wind turn. The airplane is going to be going 25mph which ever way its pointed. Only the ground speed drastically changes. The wind does effect the plane, but almost only in relation the the ground. If the plane fly's at 1/4 throttle upwind, it will downwind too. On the downwind turn, the wind is hitting the control surfaces at a different angle, and in a turn, will give more lift to one wing then the other, making it easier to stall and barrel straight into the ground. The plane seems to be moving quite a bit slower one direction, and faster the other, from your perspective to the ground.

Once your in the air, the plane doesn't care how much wind there is. One trick to get the plane to stick to the runway better, and stop it from puffing up in a gust, is to lower your nose wheel. This keeps the nose down and changes the wing incidence, giving you negetive lift.

The flat bottom and clark y wings found on most trainers are very draggy, meaning they are quite a bit more effected by wind and outside conditions. A symetrical wing is almost a no lift wing. It flies using angle of attack and deflaction of the elevator. This is why semi-semetrical and full symetrical wings fly better inverted and require less elevator to trim for inverted flight. A larger airplane can be more effected by wind, depending on wing loading and again the style of wing. Adding weight increases your wing loading, making the plane fly faster and require more speed and power to stay in the air.
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:48 AM   #7
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For a large (95" wingspan) RTF you might look into the Super Sky Surfer. I think it's at Banana Hobby. Anyway, I understand it's offered as RTF or ARF. The ARF version comes with motor, ESC and servos, so all you need to supply is radio. Not too sure how good a trainer it might be, but it should work OK as it's basically an overgrown Easy Star.
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:33 AM   #8
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I'm not really a beginner but more a returning learner. I flew both airplane and helicopter back in the 80's. When I quit gyros were just hitting the public mainly on helicopters. My Heliboy .60 didn't have one. I just like casual flying and scale models such as the Cessna's appeal to me.

I see the NexSTAR does come in a RTF configuration, but it says it requires "Batteries: Two 9.6V 3600mAh NiMH, GPMP0362 Peak Charger"

My current planes.

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Old 09-04-2012, 12:40 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by pmullen503 View Post
Say you are happily flying into a 15mph wind. Your airspeed is 25 but your ground speed is only 10. When you turn down wind you'll need to quickly accelerate the plane to get back to your 25 mph airspeed. ..
Oh dear...not the dreaded downwind turn myth again

The acceleration of the plane is no different regardless of any (stready) wind that's blowing. The only difference as far as the plane is concerned is the rate that the ground passes benieth it. As the plane flies in air and not in the ground then speed over the ground makes no difference whatsoever to how it flies.


The BMFA have a good piece on flying in the wind in their beginners guide to electric RC flying


THE EFFECT OF WIND ON THE AIRCRAFT IN FLIGHT.
There is probably more nonsense talked and written on this subject than any other connected with the practical side of flying! In reality, the matter is very simple - it is just that so many people find it hard to accept.
Provided that your flying area is clear of vertical obstructions (houses, trees, hedges, hangers etc.) the wind will blow fairly steadily from a constant direction once the aircraft is above about 50 ft. Below this height, and depending on the surface of your flying site and the proximity of obstructions, there will be some turbulence both vertical and lateral.
Once you understand this principle you will see that a turn from an into wind heading to crosswind will appear to be a fairly sharp turn when seen from the ground and a turn from downwind to crosswind will appear to be slow and elongated. You must accept these visual effects for what they are and remember at all times that if you have not altered your throttle setting and the aircraft is at constant height then your airspeed is constant and the aircraft is in no danger of stalling.
Once the aircraft has climbed out of this turbulent level it is, in effect, flying in a steadily-moving block of air. Thus, with a wind speed of 10 mph the block of air in which your aircraft is flying is moving downwind at a speed of 10 mph. So, your aircraft which flies at a speed of, say 20 mph will appear to be doing only 10 mph when flying into the wind (flying speed less wind speed) and 30 mph when flying downwind (flying speed plus wind speed). In point of fact your aircraft knows nothing about the wind speed at all and is flying at a steady 20 mph all the time!
You will often hear people say that their aircraft tends to climb when turning into wind and dive when turning downwind. What is really happening, of course, is that they are subconsciously trying to compensate for the apparent variation in speed and themselves causing the aircraft to climb and dive.
One major point to remember Ė donít try to keep your apparent speed constant or you will find that you will have your aircraft at full throttle when going into wind and stalling when it goes downwind.
If you find all this difficult to visualise, try to imagine yourself piloting a model boat from the bank of a fast-flowing river. In this situation you will find that you can understand the problems outlined above.
When flying in a wind of any strength you will find that your model can be carried away from you very quickly when it is travelling downwind. It is essential not to let it go too far. If you do, not only do you stand a good chance of losing control because you just canít see the aircraft properly, but it is a long and slow slog back to your position against the full strength of the wind. There is another major factor - if you drain your flight batteries so that you have no power it will be difficult or impossible to glide the aircraft back to your position if it is too far downwind.
So always try to keep your aircraft upwind of your position as much as possible. By doing so you will save yourself from falling into some very difficult situations.
Steve
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Old 09-04-2012, 01:35 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by DCDetector View Post
I'm not really a beginner but more a returning learner. I flew both airplane and helicopter back in the 80's. When I quit gyros were just hitting the public mainly on helicopters. My Heliboy .60 didn't have one. I just like casual flying and scale models such as the Cessna's appeal to me.

I see the NexSTAR does come in a RTF configuration, but it says it requires "Batteries: Two 9.6V 3600mAh NiMH, GPMP0362 Peak Charger"

My current planes.
Well then, if you have some skills already and can knock the rust off with what you have I would go with the Top Flite Cessna. I do enjoy flying mine ever so much! Just not a beginner plane for sure. Not available RTF but well worth the cost of setting it up.

And that's a nice looking fleet you have there already!


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Old 09-05-2012, 12:44 AM   #11
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With three high wings in one peice, I think your ready for a lower wing or symetrical wing.

My dad loved his mini pulse with a www.headsuprc.com power up 450 slow fly and a 1800-2200mah 3 cell battery. The windy I was iffy flying my trianer in, almost didn't even effect his plane. It has some incidence and dihedrial making it slightly more stable. Eflight calls it a good low wing trainer or second or third plane.

Personally, I would use the power up 450 sport though. A bit smaller prop with a 10X5, and it should pick up some speed.
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Old 09-05-2012, 10:29 AM   #12
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Well I ended up buying 3. I didn't really find a bigger RTF option so I'm sticking with the RichTop 61" wingspan RTF Cessna. I also was looking at a low or mid wing as well and probably should have gone T28 but ended up buying a Air-Tech P51 RTF 37" WS with "crashproof technology". I was also looking for a nice small park flier so I bought a HobbyZone Champ Micro 22" WS. I think I'm covered for a little while.
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:27 PM   #13
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Yea let us know how that crashproof technology works. We call that auto crash. LOL!

You will love the champ. The ParkZone T-28 is a jewel - make it appear on your short list for next plane. Trust us.
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:21 PM   #14
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For an intermediate flier with lots of wind there's nothing out there better than a CrashTestHobby Titan flying wing. These things are uber durable, being designed for full contact combat flying in the also very windy country of Utah.

The Titan is a 58" wingspan thick airfoil flying wing with absolutely no vertical surfaces to break. It flies docilely enough for a 17 year-old girl (watch her video on the website), lands nice and slowly, but if built as suggested has unlimited vertical performance. It does great at carrying cameras and in precision flying limbo contests.

There is some building involved, but they have complete videos showing the entire procedure and it's hard to see how you could mess up too badly. People there are always available for any questions.

And these things just look beautiful in flight!
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:02 PM   #15
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Yea let us know how that crashproof technology works. We call that auto crash. LOL!
OK so whats the scoop on the crashproofing technology? All I saw was something about added support carbon fiber spars but didn't really dig into the concept. What did I get myself in to?
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:39 PM   #16
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I doubt it is anything serious but NOTHING is crashproof. I find it better to buy supported good fliers and learn not to crash. Building airplanes to crash makes them heavy, hard to fly and well, they crash more!
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:39 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by pmullen503 View Post
+1 on wings or any fast, low drag plane to handle winds better. PZ Stryker comes to mind in an RTF.

More power in your trainers will also help. Say you are happily flying into a 15mph wind. Your airspeed is 25 but your ground speed is only 10. When you turn down wind you'll need to quickly accelerate the plane to get back to your 25 mph airspeed. Your ground speed will now be 40mph. It takes power to go from 10 to 40mph quickly!
Not so. No acceleration required for constant airspeed. Airplane flies in air at 25 upwind and down. Ground speed varies from 10 to 40 mph, giving heart attack, perhaps, but that's all. No crash without pilot error.
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Old 09-07-2012, 05:28 PM   #18
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ANY "trainer" type aircraft with a FLAT bottom or under camber wing is not going to do well in much wind (5mph+). The flying might be okay but even with a perfect landing if the wind varies (increases, decreases, gusts or change of direction even slightly) the plane is apt to tip over. This is especially true if after landing the throttle is used to keep the plane in one place!! LOL!!

Best "wind" planes I have seen were the Das Ugly Stik's or similar ilk that have a fat symmetric wing. They fly as well upside down as they do right side up and have very good "handling" characteristics both on the ground and in the air.

As for an ARF. I believe GP has one called the Electrostick. I think E-Flite still makes the Ultra Stick 25E and the smaller Mini Ultra Stick and both are really nice ARF's and very simple "bolt together construction that takes about an hour or less. All of these are very good "wind" planes.

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Old 09-07-2012, 06:41 PM   #19
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I'm not so sure that airfoil has an awful lot to do with ability to cope with wind. in my experience the main thing is weight and wing loading. A heavy model with high wing loading will cope with wind much better than a lightly loaded 'floater'.

Of course 'floaters' do tend to use 'flat bottom' and 'under-cambered' airfoils. So there is correlation between airfoil type and ability to handle wind, but the airfoil isn't the main cause IMHO.
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Old 09-07-2012, 07:53 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by DCDetector View Post
I'm looking for suggestions to handle southwest Kansas wind(average 14 mph) electric trainer. Right now I fly a E-Flite Apprentices 15e and a Dynam Cessna 182(51" wingspan) but only on less windy days. I think If I had a good sized and heavy plane the wind wouldn't be such a factor. I'd like to find a electric RTF in the 80"-100" wingspan preferably a scale Cessna 182/152 or along that line, but any that fits the RTF and 80-100+ wingspan would be OK.

Ideas/Suggestions?

Thanks

I did buy a RichTop Cessna 61.4" wingspan 3lb weight RTF that should be here next weekend, but I'm still thinking something bigger and heavier would be better.
I've converted the Great Planes Giant Big Stick model to electric power. This model has been flown many times in rather windy conditions. At one local fun fly, it was flown four times when the wind maximum were measured at over 25 MPH, right down the runway.

It now has over 100 flights on it, and it is getting more and more fun to fly.

Not cheap to convert, but take a look:
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65052

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Old 10-26-2012, 07:21 PM   #21
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I'm flying the Super Sky Surfer now. Lots of info on the other group about it. It handles the wind just fine and with a few inexpensive mods flies quite well.
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:02 PM   #22
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The key to flying in wind, is to, well, learn how to fly in the wind. I have flown my Hobbyzone Super Cub, Hobbyzone Firebird Stratos, Ares Gamma 370, Tower Hobbies F4U Corsair, Parkzone T-28 Trojan and Flyzone Focke-Wulf FW 190 Select Scale in winds 15-16 mph. It does take a certain technique and the low wing fighters handle the wind much better than my high wing trainers for sure, but in the end, it is the pilot, and not the plane that conquers the wind. Of all those planes, the FW 190 just slices through the wind a lot better than the others.
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:40 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Chucksolo69 View Post
The key to flying in wind, is to, well, learn how to fly in the wind. I have flown my Hobbyzone Super Cub, Hobbyzone Firebird Stratos, Ares Gamma 370, Tower Hobbies F4U Corsair, Parkzone T-28 Trojan and Flyzone Focke-Wulf FW 190 Select Scale in winds 15-16 mph. It does take a certain technique and the low wing fighters handle the wind much better than my high wing trainers for sure, but in the end, it is the pilot, and not the plane that conquers the wind. Of all those planes, the FW 190 just slices through the wind a lot better than the others.
That is a good comment on flying in the wind. However, IMHO, the giant scale models are much less affected by a sudden gust of wind than the smaller models might be.

If you want to fly in real high winds though, and have the skills to fly one, nothing beats those very fast electric jets that hit 100 MPH. That 100 MPH is so much faster than the wind, that the wind has less effect on the model. And should the model have a very rough landing, chances are, those foamies can just be picked up and flown again.

I've got a number of guys in my RC club that own both giant twin cylinder gassers models and those electric jets. When it's way to windy to fly their gassers, out come those electric jets.

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Old 10-31-2012, 07:29 PM   #24
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Totally agree on the jets. It's amazine how much wind those can handle.
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