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Old 10-14-2012, 03:22 AM   #51
Don Stackhouse
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The spinner in the photo I posted is 42 mm diameter. Anything down to about 38 mm can be made to fit, but you do end up with a radius on the edges of the nose bulkhead (F1) and the nose block in front of it.

Here's a pic of a 38 mm spinner. Note that the inside corners around the edges of the triangle stock are gone. Stephen, you have a little more sanding to do. Note, you do not need to sand into the back edge of F1, but there will be a shallow radius between there and the aft edge of the spinner. Note, that radius will help the airflow reattach after crossing the gap behind the spinner. Your 40 mm spinner should result in a slightly smoother shape than this.


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Old 10-14-2012, 02:22 PM   #52
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Thanks all... So it seems I have some more sanding to do, but behind the firewall. I did notice that Don's 1/4 in sheeting on top is sanded much deeper than where I am. So a sanding I will go. Hopefully later today I'll give it a go.

Don, one more question. What shape should the hatch be sanded to at former F2? There is the little piece that sticks up on the doublers, is that supposed to be sanded down and the hatch sanded to match F2? It kind of looks that way in your picture.

Steve


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Old 10-14-2012, 04:42 PM   #53
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Yes, the top of that piece on the doubler gets rounded off. If you visually exted the curve across the top of F2, it meets the edge of the doubler under the hatch, and then continues down to round off the top of the balsa fuselage side.

There's a cross section on the plans sheet, just above F2 in the side view, that shows how that's all supposed to blend.
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:20 PM   #54
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Thanks again Don. I did some more work with dremel and some hand sanding I now have a pretty good rough sanding. It's hard to sand the ply and you do need to sand a little of it back on the sides. That's where the dremel was handy. I did gouge the cover in a couple spots, so some light weight spackle is needed when I work on the final sanding. I still need to cut the tail where it's marked on the plans then the basic shape of the fusalege is complete.

Steve


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Old 10-15-2012, 01:54 AM   #55
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A tiny bit of progress and a bunch of pictures, so I have them as a record.

I cut the end of the fuselage off where marked on the plans for the V-tail. I also opened the cooling vents on the balsa piece on the nose. I also made the holes for the screws wider in one direction because the bolt pattern on my motor is not 25 mm square. It’s 25 and 19mm.

So far, so good. No major oops yet and the build is slowly going forward. Splicing in extra ply into the doublers was actually pretty easy to do. And since the balsa that covers it is already long enough, there is no evidence of the splice on the outside. As you can see from the pictures, I now have about 7 in of usable space in the nose area. There is plenty of room for a 2200 mAh battery up there. I’m hoping it actually ends up under the wing, but we shall see.

The next step is adding fiberglass strips with epoxy in strategic areas for strength. I have never done this before; I’ll experiment a little before putting a piece on the fuselage. I plan to follow the suggestions in the plans. To “squeegee” the epoxy on the strips while it’s on some wax paper then transfer it to the structure. If anyone else has some tips on how to apply fiberglass tape and epoxy, I’d like to hear it.

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Old 10-15-2012, 03:40 AM   #56
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all that beautiful space for the motor and battery.....

as far as fiberglassing my suggestion is the same as your planning,use some scrap balsa and experiment. practice makes perfect may be just a saying,but it will make the final applications to the plane better. are you using a glassing epoxy or is it a 2part 30min mix? this part will be very interesting to see and I'm looking forward to learning techniques to glassing.

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 10-16-2012, 12:47 AM   #57
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My first experiment with epoxy and fiberglass.... Mistake 1: I did not scrape enough of the epoxy off first. Mistake 2: I played with positioning and started grabbing threads. Then those theads were pulling the placed fiberglass around as they were stuck to my glove. I need a little more practice, but I think it will be OK.

Steve


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Old 10-16-2012, 09:10 PM   #58
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I'd make two suggestions that will make your fiberglassing life much, much easier.

First, ditch the bonding epoxy for laminating and get some laminating epoxy. The LHS will probably sell BSI Products Laminating Epoxy which will work for small pieces. It sets very quickly so you *must* plan everything out and be ready to work quickly. With laminating epoxy you can gently blot up the excess with tissue, something you can't do with bonding epoxy.

Second, get some spray adhesive. 3M 77 spray adhesive is the favorite but I've also used other brands with success. Cut out a template on wax paper or silicon impregnated baking paper and use that to adjust the shape of your fiberglass piece before you actually cut the fiberglass. Lightly spray the template with the adhesive spray then gently place that on the fiberglass. The adhesive will hold the template in place while you cut the fiberglass. Once you have the piece you can spray the fiberglass side with the adhesive, again gently. Now you can place the fiberglass onto your model and emboss it to the wood and gently peel back the template piece.

Now is the time to mix your epoxy. This is also where laminating epoxy is important. It has low enough viscosity to wick its way into the fiberglass if you encourage it with an acid brush or your glove covered fingertip as long as you work carefully. You *are* wearing gloves, right?! Nitrile (not latex, corrected below) exam gloves work just fine. Any spots where you see bubbles can be worked out if you work quickly.

An alternative method is to prepare your template as stated above but wet out the fiberglass after removing it from the template. I've had less visually pleasing results with that but it is less prone to bubbles which would compromise strength.


Hope that helps!

Tim in Texas
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Old 10-16-2012, 11:02 PM   #59
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A couple comments:

1. Just "fog" a very light mist of the adhesive onto the cloth. Too much spray adhesive will weaken the epoxy, and may in some cases interfere with the cure.

2. ALWAYS use gloves when working with laminating resins, especially epoxies.
NEVER use latex gloves!!!!!

The toxic chemicals in epoxy (much more toxic than polyester or vinylester resins, even though epoxy does not smell nearly as bad) will go right through latex. It's almost as bad as no gloves at all. Use nitrile, urethane, vinyl or neoprene gloves.
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:06 AM   #60
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Don corrects me again. I *always* learn something from him any time I get brave enough to open my yapper, which is often.

Thanks for the clarification Don!

Tim in Texas
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:34 AM   #61
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If you hadn't brought it up, a bunch of other folks might still be using latex gloves with epoxy. You have probably saved at least a few people from an epoxy allergy. Trust me, I've seen a number of friends go through that, and it's a horrible fate indeed!

EVERYONE will get an epoxy allergy eventually, given enough exposure. Some take only one or two exposures, others take years, but when it happens, it happens suddenly and permanently. After that, you can never again even be in the same room with the stuff.

The allergy is triggered when the tissue in question gets exposed by a large enough cumulative amount that it triggers a defensive response from your body's immune system. After that, any exposure via any method will trigger a reaction. For example, the area under your chin is typically a stagnant airflow area when doing layup work, and can therefore be a site for an allergic response. If you happen to touch a phone that someone answered with sticky hands hours before, the trace chemicals left on the phone enter through the skin of your hand, travel through the bloodstream, then trigger a reaction in the sensitized skin under your chin.

Likewise, if your hands have become sensitized through too much contact with epoxy, then you enter a room where epoxy is being used, wearing a full-body suit and three layers of gloves, but happen to breathe in some of the fumes, those will enter your body through your lungs, travel through your bloodstream to your hands, and your hands will break out, inside your gloves.

It's a cruel affliction, and there is no cure. Normal allergy treatment techniques don't seem to put a dent in it. The best approach is to limit your exposure and try not to get it in the first place.

Note, the chemicals in bisphenol-A laminating epoxy hardeners seem to be the main culprits. The common 5-minute and 15-minute hobby epoxies don't seem to have the problem, at least not nearly as much. I know of folks with severe epoxy allergies who can use typical brands of 5 and 15 minute epoxies, which use a different hardener chemistry. Still, it pays to be careful.
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Old 10-17-2012, 01:43 AM   #62
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I've been building quite a lot over the last 5 years and my hands are covered with dry skin that at times will crack. i thought this was caused by hand sanitizer used often at work or psoriasis. now I'm beginning to wonder if the Ca's and epoxies are doing the damage. i can't picture using gloves while building and use medium sandpaper to clean ca off the fingers if i get sloppy.

21 years in carpentry,7 years in the landscape business,years of unprotected working with all kinds of chemicals working on cars when younger.....sheeesh,i'm kinda glad i read these posts and need to look into what to do to cure this stuff. i hope there is a treatment that works as moisturizer is only a cover up of the real condition.

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Old 10-17-2012, 04:09 AM   #63
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Wow, thanks for all of the tips. I have never had any problems with epoxy, but I have only used 5-15 minute types. I do have issues with CA and I almost always use foam safe/oderless types. I am using Nitrile gloves really by accident. They were bought for another reason. I'm glad I have them. Right now I'm watching the Tigers, so no progress tonight. I'll be back at it soon.

Steve
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:03 AM   #64
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My dad has a violent reaction to CA. Right up to but not including anaphylaxis. Skin breaks out, rashes, irritated eyes and sinuses, all the classic symptoms. He had it bad enough that the USAF base doc wanted him to be part of a study into these allergies. He politely declined. He doesn't even want to risk getting near the odorless stuff, his reaction was so severe.

Don: Given known problems with epoxies and laminating epoxies specifically what precautions should be taken for it's storage? I don't think I've seen that addressed anywhere.

Tim in Texas
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:04 AM   #65
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BTW Steve, your Chrysalis is looking mighty nice! Are you going to build the conventional tail or the V-tail?

Tim in Texas
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:04 AM   #66
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Great job!

Here's my pure one, built in 2009:


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Old 10-17-2012, 02:39 PM   #67
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Hey, Frogchief, good to hear from you again!

As far as storing epoxy, it does not like to be cold (some of the components can precipitate out), and it doesn't like to be too hot (shortens the shelf life). Room temp is best. Air and moisture in the can is bad. Keep it capped.

If you are getting it by the gallon, a screw on pump such as:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...es/301PUMP.php
lets you dispense it without opening the can. That helps keep out contaminants, and also minimizes letting fumes out into the room.

Epoxies are generally pretty flammable, both the raw resin and after curing. I remember years ago there was an old unused fire station across the street from the local hobby shop. Someone rented it to do the final assembly work on a full-scale LongEze homebuilt. It was January, and they were using a kerosene heater for shop heat. One day they were busy sloshing out the fuel tanks to remove any loose construction residue. The gasoline fumes, being heavier than air, hugged the floor and flowed across the room to the heater, which ignited them, and carried the resulting fire across the floor to the airplane. As I recall, the damage to the room was actually fairly light. However, the airplane very quickly burned to the ground, nothing left but a big pile of ashes and tangled glass fibers on the floor. The resin had gone up like the petroleum derivatives it was made from.

Then of course there's the story of the "Touchdown Jesus" statue that used to be at a church next to I-75 between Dayton and Cincinnati, Ohio. It was a huge statue of the head and upper body of Jesus, with the arms reaching upwards and outwards something like the "it's good" signal a ref makes at a football game, hence the nickname. The statue used a steel girder framework with urethane foam and a fiberglass shell over it. One night a thunderstorm came through, and the steel girder framework acted like a lighting rod, causing lighting to strike one of the hands. This ignited the fiberglass, and the whole thing burned down to just the bare steel girders in a matter of minutes.

So, obviously you need to keep petroleum-based resins and products made from them away from ignition sources, and that goes for the fumes from them as well. In typical industrial situations, paints, resins and other flammable liquids are stored in fireproof metal cabinets, and the rooms are ventilated to prevent excessive buildup of fumes. The typical home hobbyist probably doesn't need to get that elaborate, but it is a good idea to plan with fire safety in mind. Ventilation is a big part of that, in addition to the health concerns. If you don't let fumes build up in the first place, they are less likely to reach an ignitable concenrtation, as well as less likely to trigger health problems.
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Old 10-17-2012, 03:39 PM   #68
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Regarding storage of cyanoacrylates ("CA", "C/A", "Superglue"):

C/A cures when it is in the absence of air (which is why bottles of CA have some air space at the top of the bottle), and in the presence of an alkaline (chemically "basic", the opposite of "acidic") environment. Atmospheric moisture can be the chemical base.

This is why certain materials such as spruce and plywood tend to inhibit the cure of C/A. They have an acid sap that can accumulate on the surface. Sanding the surface lightly before bonding to remove any accumulated sap can help this, as well as spraying the surface with some alkaline accelerator ("kicker"). Breathing on the surface can deposit moisture from your breath, which can also act as a catalyst.

Avoid sticking pins or other foreign objects into the bottle's nozzle. These usually have atmospheric moisture adhering to their surfaces, which they then deposit inside the nozzle, causing the glue in the nozzle to cure and clog it up. Attempts at cleaning the clog tend to make things worse.

C/A after opening has a fairly limited shelf life, officially about 6 months, but often less, perhaps much less, depending on how well you follow the advice above. Avoid repeated changes in temperature (changes in temperature can pull more air, and with it atmospheric moisture, into the bottle), and in general try to keep it at room temperature.

Unopened bottles of C/A will keep almost indefinitely (as in "years and years") in the freezer. However, when you are ready to use them, take them out of the freezer and let them warm up COMPLETELY to room temperature, and make sure they are completely dry, before opening. If you want to speed up the process, put the unopened bottle in your pocket to get some help from your body heat. The cold bottles of C/A will initially get condensation on their outsides, and the cold temperature inside the bottle also reduces the pressure of the air in the bottle. If you open the bottle while it is in that condition, some of the condensation could be sucked into the bottle, which will cause it to cure in the bottle very quickly. Making sure the bottle is warm and dry before opening avoids this.
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:04 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by UglyNet View Post
BTW Steve, your Chrysalis is looking mighty nice! Are you going to build the conventional tail or the V-tail?
I'm going for the V-Tail. I like the looks better and I've read that it can be built slightly lighter.

Frogchief, yours looks great! Did I see that you made a removable tail? Any thoughts on that?


And as usual, Don you have some great information on glues. Thanks for sharing. One more question for you Don. Do you have any suggestions on the fiberglass piece that goes around the nose? Use 4 small pieces? 1 piece, but with slits where the cooling holes are? Do I cover the cooling holes and cut them back out after glassing?


Steve

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Old 10-17-2012, 05:20 PM   #70
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Gee thank you fellows this info will help all of us avoid problems with both types of glue and our health !!
Thank you to many guys !!!!!
George
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:41 PM   #71
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The glass tape is amazingly pliable if you do it right. You should be able to make one piece wrap around fine. Start with the middle of the piece at the 12:00 position, then wrap smoothly around from there in both directions. Make the length enough to get about 1/4" to 1/2" overlap at the bottom. Try it with a dry piece first, just to get the hang of it. Once you've done that, a good approach would be to smear a thin film of the epoxy on the wood, then put the glass tape on top of that and stick it down (just like you did with the dry trial run), then stipple additional epoxy on with an acid brush to wet out any dry areas. Cut slits in the glass tape on both sides of each cooling inlet, then fold the resulting flap down onto the face of F1 at the back of the inlet, which helps positively lock F1 in place.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:03 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Stevephoon View Post
I'm going for the V-Tail. I like the looks better and I've read that it can be built slightly lighter.

Frogchief, yours looks great! Did I see that you made a removable tail? Any thoughts on that?


And as usual, Don you have some great information on glues. Thanks for sharing. One more question for you Don. Do you have any suggestions on the fiberglass piece that goes around the nose? Use 4 small pieces? 1 piece, but with slits where the cooling holes are? Do I cover the cooling holes and cut them back out after glassing?


Steve
Steve,

Unfortunately, by making such a 'pretty' and strong removable tail, I ended up adding a bit too much weight at the tail. It's not worth it honestly. Just build it the way Don designed it.

I'm a serial kit-basher, so sometimes I tinker with stuff to a fault.

Also, on RES-only ships, I prefer a conventional tail. Don will give you a million reasons why a V on a RES is A-OK, but I just prefer the isolated control inputs of a conventional tail when there's no ailerons present.

USMC 96-01 - Corporal - 6172
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:57 PM   #73
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In terms of stability and handling qualities, the two tail types are essentially identical (as they should be, if the designer did their homework properly, and yes, I have built and flown both, obviously). There is no problem with control interaction if the controls are set up properly. The V is a little lighter, very slightly less drag overall, and does a better job of staying out of trouble on landings.
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:21 PM   #74
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Just finished mine up this morning....now , to wait for a not so windy day!
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:48 PM   #75
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Grrr...try this link :

https://plus.google.com/photos/10825...CMX1pcu9tMOlLQ

Apparently some notes added to pics arent showing, so here are details.
emax GT2815/05 outrunner, Hurc 50A ESC, 12x6 prop, 38mm spinner, HS65HB servos thru-out, HiTec Freedom rx, 2200 or 1500 mah 3s lipo, AUW @ 35oz, 2oz less with 1500 mah pack, top LE edge wing silver, lower LE wing blue, rest transparent yellow
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