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Old 10-01-2012, 12:51 PM   #1
airrds
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Talking Conversion help

OK,
I need some help. I am going to covert all my planes to electric motors.
I am really tired of fighting these gas motors, I AM DONE !!!! hate smelling
like gas when i get home.....lol. I need to
know exactly what I need for each one of these planes.

I have the following Planes,
RC GUYS- decathlon, needs 40CC equivilent with proper electronics..
BH Zlin z50l 40cc equivilent with proper electronics
Lanier YAk 54 70cc equivilent with proper electronics
aeroworks Ultimate bipe 60cc equivilent with proper electronics.

I know nothing about what I need for these planes, I would like at least ten minutes flying time for each plane..

Help me out here and give me a list of what I might need for each plane..including what batteries are needed..

Thanks..
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Old 10-01-2012, 06:22 PM   #2
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There are a number of threads here that will help you get started check these out:

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31071
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31368
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3297
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24238
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=20
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Old 10-01-2012, 07:34 PM   #3
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Good lord, 40 and 70cc equivalents?

Or .40 and .70 ?

Ask me why your DX5e is doomed... and how to fix it.
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Old 10-01-2012, 07:50 PM   #4
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Default That is correct.

These are what I am considering using in these four planes.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...5410&aff=21799

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...7987&aff=21799

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...0332&aff=21799


http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...9155&aff=21799
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:12 PM   #5
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With planes of that size I personally think you would be better sticking with gas, even if it does smell. Sure it can be done with electric but you would be looking at serious hardware costing big BIG bucks, and even then you would be looking at severely limited flight times compared to gas of similar flying weight and power.

For the 70cc conversion alone using good quality kit you would be looking for a flight system cost of $1200 just for the basics : http://www.aero-model.com/Hacker-Brushless-A80-10.aspx

Motor = $580
ESC = $270
Battery = $340

Then add another $340 for each spare battery, then a few hundred for a charger, potentially much again for a AC power supply, more still for a field gas powered generator.
It really starts to stack up when you go big with electric power. Sure you can trim the cost down a bit if you use cheaper brand hardware (Hobbyking etc) but you take a chance going that route. Suggested hardware would probably give you a flight time of four or five minutes flying aerobatics.
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:19 PM   #6
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That all looks ok but you would need two of the 5s batteries in series for the smaller '50cc' motor to make 10s. For the '80cc' motor the 5s battery is no good, you would need two 6s batteries in series to make 12s.

IMHO Unless you want to stooge around an minimum power for the entire flight then 10 minutes flying time is probably unachievable with electric at this size while still keeping flying weight in the ballpark of the original gas power plane.
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:32 PM   #7
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My goodness......the $$$ are huge!

There's a guy at one of the clubs I frequent (the only club around here that will even let anyone fly a +20lb plane) who, as an experiment - just for kicks, and who has plenty of disposable income, converted a Yak 54 - 87" to electric........I believe after he threw $2200.00 at at, gave up on it due to the battery storage, charging and weight issues he continued to experience.........it was an awesome looking bird, but he continued to be un-happy with the flight times and constant C/G issues the conversion caused.......and he's a very very experinced builder/pilot!

Hope you find peace of mind after the "petro" smell clears......but I'd rather have a few gallons of fuel sitting around rather than those huge "lipo's" stored any where near my garage while charging......just a thought
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:06 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by pizzano View Post
but I'd rather have a few gallons of fuel sitting around rather than those huge "lipo's" stored any where near my garage while charging......just a thought
I'd say that's a highly debatable point. The potential fire that a few gallons of gas could cause is literally hundreds of times worse than any fire that could be directly caused by even a very large LiPo. Kg per kg the energy stored in gas, and so available to fuel a fire, is about (round figures) 100 times higher for gas compared to a LiPo.

Here is 1 litre (less than 1/3rd of a gallon) of gas exploding:
YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Compare that to the worst LiPo fire video you have ever seen, the LiPo fire will look like a 'party popper' in comparison.

Also compare the many people killed or maimed in gasoline fires every year to the number hurt in LiPo fires (clue the LiPo fires is probably zero or close to it). Bottom line is the risk from liPo fires is often much exaggeration and the risk from gasoline is often much under-estimated.
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:25 PM   #9
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Yes.....very debatable indeed.....both results from careless storage and handling are devastating.......but having personally witnessed events from both, the lipo and liquid fuel....I'd rather deal with the storage/handling and extinguishing the liquid rather than the lipo...especially in a field event where most common safety extinguishers do a better job of controlling the liquid than they do the lipo after the initial flare up........!
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:36 PM   #10
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I think the prejudice against LIPOs (which is at least somewhat justified) is that an undisturbed can of gas explodes much more rarely than does a LIPO- it's the probability of an incident, not the degree of outcome (although if a lipo cooks off and burns down the house, that's arguably not a 'smaller' result).

I don't think gasoline exploding with the help of explosives is really a fair comparision point, though.
Maybe that was a bag of gas with a bad lipo in it?

Ask me why your DX5e is doomed... and how to fix it.
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:53 PM   #11
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I couldn't agree with you more Dave!.........I have no prejudice towards lipo's, that's all I use......I've seen the initial outcomes of both types of accidents.... if I had the choice, I'd rather fight the liquid fire.....much eaiser to initially put down and control....(exploding) lipo's spread all over and leave trace elements that continue to burn through anything it touches.....at least with liquid fuel there is the evaporation/dissipation element that can be managed faster.
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:35 AM   #12
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Where I fly, I don't really need to worry about fires, unless I hit my own car.
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Old 10-02-2012, 08:05 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by CNY_Dave View Post
I think the prejudice against LIPOs (which is at least somewhat justified) is that an undisturbed can of gas explodes much more rarely than does a LIPO- it's the probability of an incident, not the degree of outcome
I think you will find that there are many thousands of gasoline fires for every LiPo fire. The statistics show 4,000 deaths and over 600,000 hospital admitance injuries (yes, that 0.6 million!!!), every year, due to gasolins fires in the USA alone: www.ameriburn.org/Preven/PowerPoint/GasolineSafety.ppt
We just take gas for granted because it's familiar, but that doesnt mean it's safe. A leaking or un-sealaed gas can will fill an enclosed room with explosive vapour that could ignite with the spark from a light switch.

Compare those statistics to LiPo fires for which as far as I'm aware there has never been a single death or serious injury, ever in the world. There simply is no comparison at all, not even close.

As for fighting the fire, again there is no comparison. Gas will explode in a fireball that will incinerate anything within range. The tens of thousands of fatalities and injuries are proof enough of this. The worst Lipo fire I've seen (even when the Lipo was deliberatly over charged to destruction) was nothing that a bucket of sand, a shovel of dirt or two, or a fire blanket could not have put out. Or you could simply have stepped back a couple of paces and watch it burn out without any risk of injury.
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Old 10-02-2012, 11:27 AM   #14
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Default conversion help

appreciate all the info on fires..I have all the planes set up wiyh servos receivers etc. I assume the batts are not correct after looking again, I need to run these on 37 volts..so I need big lipo packs. I have a Sigma EqII charger which will charge up to 16 cells i think, with safeguards an
d timers etc. I need to know if my other choices for equip ment are correct and complete..and I am doing all this for convienence, i am kinda disabled
and it will be much easier for me overall, i wanna fly,plug it in and go, instead of screw around with gas all day..thanks folks
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Old 10-02-2012, 01:06 PM   #15
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airrds,

Sorry for drifting off topic The battery you linked is 5 cell so two could be connected together in series to produce a 10 cell (37 Volt) battery, no problem at all.

For the 70cc conversion you need at least 12 cells (44.4 volts), so for that two 6 cell batteries would be the way to go.
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Old 10-02-2012, 01:25 PM   #16
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Default BAtteries

Anybody you guys know out there who will build up these batts for me..

Thanks.
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Old 10-02-2012, 01:31 PM   #17
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The large Turnigy ESC are VERY suspect - I would go with Castle or Jeti controllers in this price range. Just do a search but the Turnigy's tend to burn up airplanes running near capacity. Honestly many of the large ESC's have issues - those power levels are staggering.

Aslo - the Nano's are not lasting well for many - I would look at Gens Ace from HobbyPartz instead.

I have no idea how the large motors from HK are doing but would suspect them as well. Better options would include Hacker like this:
http://www.aero-model.com/Hacker-Brushless-Q80-6L.aspx

There is no real reason to go cheap with these types of models - IMHO they deserve better equipment.

Just my $0.02

Mike
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Old 10-02-2012, 01:53 PM   #18
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I just look for as few a hassles as possible so I want good stuff and I want it to work consistently and well
If that requires more $ then that is what need to happen. I did not realize those motors were not good.. I do know I need really good ESC's and batts, But I did not know about these motors quality..I guess they have not sold many yet. according to the support people..I see the potential here..And I think it's the way to go, if nothing else just to help the environment a little..LOL
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Old 10-02-2012, 05:00 PM   #19
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Many of the guys out here that fly the big electric planes and heli's swear by Scorpion and Castle Creations motors and ESC's...here's a couple links:

http://www.scorpionsystem.com/

http://www.castlecreations.com/produ...ducts_fly.html

I've used both on 450/500 heli's without a hitch.....I don't own a plane that would require that level of quality, but if I did I'd consider them.....though they are pricey!
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Old 10-02-2012, 05:39 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by airrds View Post
OK,
I need some help. I am going to covert all my planes to electric motors.
I am really tired of fighting these gas motors, I AM DONE !!!! hate smelling
like gas when i get home.....lol. I need to
know exactly what I need for each one of these planes.

I have the following Planes,
RC GUYS- decathlon, needs 40CC equivilent with proper electronics..
BH Zlin z50l 40cc equivilent with proper electronics
Lanier YAk 54 70cc equivilent with proper electronics
aeroworks Ultimate bipe 60cc equivilent with proper electronics.

I know nothing about what I need for these planes, I would like at least ten minutes flying time for each plane..

Help me out here and give me a list of what I might need for each plane..including what batteries are needed..

Thanks..
I've been flying models with over one kilowatt power systems now for five years. These kilowatt sized models (Equivalent to a 70 size or larger 4 stroker glow engine) are fairly reasonable in cost. Flight times are on the order of 6-7 minutes with several minutes reserve.

Once you get to the two-three KW or larger models, the costs skyrocket. You need $$$$ batteries, and a way to charge those batteries. If you field has AC power available, that is one hurdle cleared. High capacity LiPo batteries on the order of two series connected 5000 Milliampere Hour five cell Lipo's are what would be used for powering these big electrics.

As for the giant scale models, electric power is definitely feasible, I've got two of them. A Cessna 82 inch wingspan model, and a Giant Big Stick 81 inch model. That Giant Big Stick is my favorite model, and gets the most flying time. With a Hacker A60-16M motor, 19X12 APC-E prop, Castle Creations 80 Amp ICE High Voltage ESC, 12S2P A123 batteries, that power system will haul the 15.5 pound model straight up out of sight. The Giant Big Stick now has 135 flawless flights on its on board flight counter.

IMHO a big side effect is very little or no vibration issues from giant electrics. Last year I measured vibration levels over 25G's at a wing servo location on a club members giant gasser with a 150 something cc twin cylinder engine up front.

With the proper charger (Cellpro Powerlab 8), a 50 Amp DC supply, the 12S2P A123 battery can be charged in about 18 minutes.

A123 batteries are heavier than LiPo's, and have a lower output voltage. It takes a 12S2P (12 series, 2 parallel) pile of A123 cells to match a 10S 4000 Milliampere Hour LiPo.

On the other hand, the A123 cells last a LONG time. I've got A123 packs 5 years old with three hundred flights that have the same exact performance as when brand new. And, A123 batteries have zero fire hazard. Problem is, getting a 12S2P pack just about requires that you build it your self from individual cells. These cells are available from http://www.voltmanbatteries.com/serv...1-dsh-A/Detail at $9.99 each. I've got wiring diagrams for this stuff.

Electric power does have some issues. One big one is that once armed and powered up, these high powered motors will start by just accidentally moving the transmitter throttle. Believe me, you do not want to mess with a 3000 Watt Hacker A60-16M motor's 19X12 propeller. Transmitters such as the Spektrum DX7 and my DX8 have capabilities of mixing a second switch with the throttle as a throttle kill command. It's wise to use it.

As for flying these giants, it just a matter of arming the power system, taxi out and GO.

There is a lot of info on electric conversions. Here are some of mine.
Giant Scale Power System:

Battery Backup System
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63794

Carl Goldburg Extra 330 Electric Conversion
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59273

Giant Cessna Conversion
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66414

Giant Scale electric motors vs Gasoline Engines
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58035

Harbor Freight Gasoline/Alternator Setup
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66066,

Great Planes Giant Big Stick Electric Conversion
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65052

Thread on 70 size glow engine conversion to electric
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45222

Hacker 6S2P A123 powered Models
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44686

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Old 10-02-2012, 06:13 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by airrds View Post
I just look for as few a hassles as possible so I want good stuff and I want it to work consistently and well
If that requires more $ then that is what need to happen. I did not realize those motors were not good.. I do know I need really good ESC's and batts, But I did not know about these motors quality..I guess they have not sold many yet. according to the support people..I see the potential here..And I think it's the way to go, if nothing else just to help the environment a little..LOL
Yeah
In going to these giant scale models, its critical to use quality electric power equipment. IMHO going cheap is not the way to go.

As for me, and admitted Hacker nut, these Hackers will put out the power their specifications claim, and do it for a long long time. And, when you get to these multi-kilowatt size motors, they are not that much more expensive than the el-cheapos. I've never had an issue with one after many many flights.

Here is info on that Hacker A60-16M motor.
http://www.aero-model.com/Hacker-Brushless-A60-16M.aspx

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Old 10-02-2012, 08:13 PM   #22
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Default planes

existing Weight and wingspan of the models i want to convert.

So lets spec a good system for each, would like equipment consistency between each plane...

RC guys Decathlon 98" 16 lbs with motor roto 35 fs

B&H Zlin z50l 85" 16 lbs with motor crrc 40 cc

LAnier yak 54 87" 17 lbs with motor 3w 70

Aeroworks Ultimate 68" 18.5 lbs with motor dzy 48cc twin

maybe this will help, I am sure I am gonna need a better charger also dont think the Sigma Eq II is gonna handle any of thhe equipment or batts you guys are describing...lol
I can install all the stuff, but i amm gonna have a bunch of gas motors to get rid of...lol
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:12 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by airrds View Post
existing Weight and wingspan of the models i want to convert.

So lets spec a good system for each, would like equipment consistency between each plane...

RC guys Decathlon 98" 16 lbs with motor roto 35 fs

B&H Zlin z50l 85" 16 lbs with motor crrc 40 cc

LAnier yak 54 87" 17 lbs with motor 3w 70

Aeroworks Ultimate 68" 18.5 lbs with motor dzy 48cc twin

maybe this will help, I am sure I am gonna need a better charger also dont think the Sigma Eq II is gonna handle any of thhe equipment or batts you guys are describing...lol
I can install all the stuff, but i amm gonna have a bunch of gas motors to get rid of...lol
Just had a thought. What kind of flying do you do? If you are doing regular flying around, that is much different than doing "3D" where the model airplane is hanging around off of the thrust of that spinning thing in front of the model Might be a difference of 150% or 200% more power required when going to 3D flying. And especially in giant scale, more power is a lot more $$$$.

What size prop does that DZY 48cc twin turn, and at what RPM? (My Hacker A60-16M turns a 19x12 prop at 6800 RPM on the ground and about 7300 RPM in the air. That's on a 12 series, 2 parallel A123 battery. You'd likely get a few more RPM on a good quality 10S1P LiPo with perhaps 5000 or 6000 milliampere hour capacity.)

One good program for checking things out is www.motocalc.com, free for 30 days, then $39. IMHO, this program will pay for itself many times over in your future decisions. This program is only as good as the motor specifications from the motor supplier. I've found the Hacker motor specs are fairly accurate.

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Old 10-03-2012, 01:42 AM   #24
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Default conversion help

I just do mostly IMAC aerobatics, No 3D stuff at all, just the general stuff full size might do...loops, roll, spins, flat spins, just general aerobatics and flying around..the dzy 48 turns a 20-10 about 6300..
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Old 10-03-2012, 02:03 AM   #25
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IMAC you want really solid power for - not 3D but not sport power for sure. Sounds like the Hacker A60-16M might work - maybe the A60-18L for a touch more power.

http://www.aero-model.com/Hacker-Brushless-A60-18L.aspx

Power is always good - you can pull back the stick.

The A80 - larger version of these are worth a look too - same site.

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