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iTrader talk Discuss specifics about transactions both postive and negative. No bashing allowed, please keep the tone civil with facts.

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Old 10-13-2012, 01:14 AM   #1
Wildflyer
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Default Ebay word to the wise

I accidentally clicked on new button when I listed a collectors item on Ebay.

It was a model outboard motor made between 1957 and mid 60's. the man in Italy that bought it, got mad when the instruction sheet was damaged in shipment. but he claimed he wanted his money back because it was not new. the pictures and description clearly showed and told it was not new. Plus he was a collector that owned the same motor.

He was able to force me to give a refund as per PayPal rules, because I clicked the New button somehow. had to refund $450.00

Bottom line; if I sell anything on Ebay, I will call it used even if it is still welded into it's plastic package

Dave R, Proud PGR rider.
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:25 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Wildflyer View Post
I accidentally clicked on new button when I listed a collectors item on Ebay.

It was a model outboard motor made between 1957 and mid 60's. the man in Italy that bought it, got mad when the instruction sheet was damaged in shipment. but he claimed he wanted his money back because it was not new. the pictures and description clearly showed and told it was not new. Plus he was a collector that owned the same motor.

He was able to force me to give a refund as per PayPal rules, because I clicked the New button somehow. had to refund $450.00

Bottom line; if I sell anything on Ebay, I will call it used even if it is still welded into it's plastic package
Ouch, seems that guy was taking advantage of the system.

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Old 10-13-2012, 01:36 AM   #3
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You can have him return it too. No rule against that. Though now you have returned the money that may be tough.

Merchandise not as described does not mean you can ask that!

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Old 10-13-2012, 01:52 AM   #4
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You should be disputing this yourself show proof to papal that it was listed as used.
was it a full refund you had to give him if so the buyer is suppose to ship the item back to you.
Is the buyer shipping the motor back to you ?
The buyer is suppose to provide proof to paypal that it is being returned to the seller also from what I have read.
Why I get nervous selling items seems paypal sides to the buyer to much and there are a lot of scammers out there taking advantage of paypal's policy.

So to read your misfortune Wildflyer that does stink.
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Old 10-13-2012, 05:04 AM   #5
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Default Sorry this is long, but I want you to know how Ebay treats you if something goes bad

I had inadvertently hit the new button in the Item specifics area.----my screw up, no way around it.
The long written description said; I think of this motor as new, because it has never been fueled up or attempted to start, but of course it is many years old.
I had 12 full screen clearly focused pictures, that showed the motor with all it's chipped paint, from all angles. also showed the worn box and the worn papers.
This guy also said, the motor arrived all disassembled, and that parts were missing. He said the spring starter was not there.
I had answered a question about the motor 2 days before he had placed his bid, explaining this motor originally came with & without the starter, my motor does not have the starter.

Yes he had to return the motor at his expense, BUT this is where I had my biggest argument with PayPal. All he had do to in Italy, was to purchase postage with a tracking number. Then Paypal refunded his money.
I spent an hour on the phone with Paypal, trying to get them to understand that buying the postage, is not proof that he actually mailed the package. He could have simply gone back home, with out mailing it and had a FREE motor. I would have been totally out of luck, and out of a motor.

He had also accused me of saying I had not received the pictures he supposedly sent form Italy, directly to my email, not through Ebay (why not I have no idea) well he did not add the country identifier code to my email, (if he sent them at all) that is why I didn't receive them.

Thankfully the motor did finally show up, took over 2 weeks before I knew it had left the post office, it showed up in New York, then took 8 days to get to Olympia, WA. The motor had never been disassembled, I could see every screw was in the same position as it was in my pictures.

When I opened the box he had included a slanderous note, calling me a liar, a dishonest person and an idiot. He had left my first negative feedback on Ebay, which was a bunch of lies, and even Ebay agreed they were lies, but they would not remove the negative because he had not cursed at me, in the feedback. They did not care what was written on the paper.

I have been an Ebay member / dealer since 1999, I wish there was another way to sell to the world. Any other way I have heard of will not generate the price. I buy and sell, to pay for my balsa/RC addiction.

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Old 10-13-2012, 06:26 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Wildflyer View Post
I had inadvertently hit the new button in the Item specifics area.----my screw up, no way around it.
The long written description said; I think of this motor as new, because it has never been fueled up or attempted to start, but of course it is many years old.
I had 12 full screen clearly focused pictures, that showed the motor with all it's chipped paint, from all angles. also showed the worn box and the worn papers.
This guy also said, the motor arrived all disassembled, and that parts were missing. He said the spring starter was not there.
I had answered a question about the motor 2 days before he had placed his bid, explaining this motor originally came with & without the starter, my motor does not have the starter.

Yes he had to return the motor at his expense, BUT this is where I had my biggest argument with PayPal. All he had do to in Italy, was to purchase postage with a tracking number. Then Paypal refunded his money.
I spent an hour on the phone with Paypal, trying to get them to understand that buying the postage, is not proof that he actually mailed the package. He could have simply gone back home, with out mailing it and had a FREE motor. I would have been totally out of luck, and out of a motor.

He had also accused me of saying I had not received the pictures he supposedly sent form Italy, directly to my email, not through Ebay (why not I have no idea) well he did not add the country identifier code to my email, (if he sent them at all) that is why I didn't receive them.

Thankfully the motor did finally show up, took over 2 weeks before I knew it had left the post office, it showed up in New York, then took 8 days to get to Olympia, WA. The motor had never been disassembled, I could see every screw was in the same position as it was in my pictures.

When I opened the box he had included a slanderous note, calling me a liar, a dishonest person and an idiot. He had left my first negative feedback on Ebay, which was a bunch of lies, and even Ebay agreed they were lies, but they would not remove the negative because he had not cursed at me, in the feedback. They did not care what was written on the paper.

I have been an Ebay member / dealer since 1999, I wish there was another way to sell to the world. Any other way I have heard of will not generate the price. I buy and sell, to pay for my balsa/RC addiction.
Yeah
I've dealt with overseas orders at work before retiring. With customs and everything else, really hated it.

A few months ago I shipped an electronic project worth under $100 to a person in Lima Peru. A very good gentleman. But the customs work was a real hassle. UPS wanted $170 to ship a package weighing less than a pound to Peru.

Our local postal service did it for $16. As for me, I'd think twice before sending an expensive something overseas Ebay, paypal or not, you never know who is on the other end.

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Old 10-13-2012, 11:39 AM   #7
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Glad you got the motor back. Sadly on eBay there are many crooks. You made an honest mistake....
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Old 10-13-2012, 04:04 PM   #8
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I gave up on ebay years ago when they started that paypal crap. Ebay was fun in the begining but not anymore.

When I fly alone, I prefer to be by myself.
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Old 10-13-2012, 05:15 PM   #9
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IMO, what is extremely unfair is, sellers from China seems to be in Ebay's favor. Not sure as to why.
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Old 11-10-2012, 07:57 AM   #10
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As you accept and say - you were in the wrong by clicking New ...

I buy a lot of Ebay and I use that box to help decide buy or not ... so I have a little sympathy with buyer ...

BUT his action and subsequent note etc. is disgraceful. I have more sympathy for you.

I have one bad experience on Ebay against countless good. I bought a RTF 450 Heli ... all was good except the Tx had a dead top left corner in the display. I contacted seller who basically didn't want to know ... finally he wanted me to send Tx back to him to 'evaluate' - China. I checked the postage price and the 'required method' seller demanded ... WOW ! talk about expensive ! I then contacted him and advised him that HE was selling same radio incl. shipping separate for far less than the postage cost I was quoted .... His reply was simply : "Buy replacement from me then".

Only then did I start a PP / Ebay dispute ............ PP and Ebay were absolutely no help whatsoever .......... I tried to contact PP to send them all communication incl. that last from seller ... PP were not interested. Seller ignored them totally .......... PP / Ebay did nothing and dispute defaulted out.

I still have the radio and it still has the dead top left corner in display ... but I live with it now and the Heli flies well ... just have to be careful reading the display.

Other sellers when contacted about faults ... ie had a couple of dead servos - they sent replacements saying not necessary to send back DOA's ...
My mains adaptor for my B6 charger failed about a year after purchase ... I contacted seller and he asked postage only ... less than buying an adaptor locally ...

So I have had good and bad ... the good far outweighing the bad.

Friend off mine who is in DVD / Film reproduction biz sold a DVd controller system on Ebay ... full working condition. He lost a PP dispute when buyer complained that machine didn't work. My friend asked for details and was sent photos ... where he could plainly see the machine case had been forced open badly .... he advised PP and buyer of his observations ... but still lost his case. He received the machine back in terrible condition as though it had been in the wars ... buyer refusing to admit his tampering. Needless to say that item was unsellable after that.

Seems there are some real bad ar*** out there ....

Nigel

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Old 11-10-2012, 08:33 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Wildflyer View Post
I accidentally clicked on new button when I listed a collectors item on Ebay.

It was a model outboard motor made between 1957 and mid 60's. the man in Italy that bought it, got mad when the instruction sheet was damaged in shipment. but he claimed he wanted his money back because it was not new. the pictures and description clearly showed and told it was not new. Plus he was a collector that owned the same motor.

He was able to force me to give a refund as per PayPal rules, because I clicked the New button somehow. had to refund $450.00

Bottom line; if I sell anything on Ebay, I will call it used even if it is still welded into it's plastic package
I am a seller on Ebay too, and Yes, you have to be very very carefull when listing a item for sale, we are all human and do make mistakes, glad you got your engine back, just put it behind you, and keep trucking, thats about all you can really do, Take care and have fun, Chellie

I may be getting Older, But I Refuse to grow Up I am Having to much Fun to Grow Up LOL
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:31 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by park View Post
I gave up on ebay years ago when they started that paypal crap. Ebay was fun in the begining but not anymore.
You got it. Almost nobody should use Ebay, and I'll explain why. The only thing that makes sense about Paypal's mob style ability to take the money from a seller, is if they are a new seller with no reputation, that may rip someone off. Once you have a reputation, that is what people should trust. It's no different than dealing with a reputable vendor. You know that they can rip you off, but you buy from them because they have a reputation, and do not expect to be ripped off. Just because we don't run a so called business or distributorship, doesn't mean that we should put up with paypal taking our money back, based on someone's story. If you have a good reputation, then you've earned the right to not put up with that crap.

Thanks to paypal, I have to hand onto a number of great deals I'd like to sell off. If I ask for Postal MOs the way it used to be, people get upset. It actually makes more sense than Paypal however, since if you trust me, then why wouldn't I take your package to the post office when I go to cash the MO. It's what I would do, therefore shipping quickly. If you don't trust me, then please don't buy anything from me. I'm not playing the paypal game to make people happy. Sure I could state local pickup on an ad, but since this paypal stuff started, everyone expects folks to both ship and accept paypal. If you don't, they respond with sarcastic replies that I don't need to put up with. I deal with enough road rage drivers during my days, to not need to read someone's smart comments in the evenings when I'm trying to relax. Now that I've stated all that to explain where I'm at with all this paypal nonsense, I may feel slightly safe to mention that one of the things I have LOCAL Pickup is an Eflite SeaFury old version, receiver ready with all quality gear for $100. I'm not going to bother putting it in the ads and get smart replies however, saying you need to ship and take paypal, etc. Yeah, you all can tell I really love paypal.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:35 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Bill G View Post
You got it. Almost nobody should use Ebay, and I'll explain why. The only thing that makes sense about Paypal's mob style ability to take the money from a seller, is if they are a new seller with no reputation, that may rip someone off. Once you have a reputation, that is what people should trust. It's no different than dealing with a reputable vendor. You know that they can rip you off, but you buy from them because they have a reputation, and do not expect to be ripped off. Just because we don't run a so called business or distributorship, doesn't mean that we should put up with paypal taking our money back, based on someone's story. If you have a good reputation, then you've earned the right to not put up with that crap.

Thanks to paypal, I have to hand onto a number of great deals I'd like to sell off. If I ask for Postal MOs the way it used to be, people get upset. It actually makes more sense than Paypal however, since if you trust me, then why wouldn't I take your package to the post office when I go to cash the MO. It's what I would do, therefore shipping quickly. If you don't trust me, then please don't buy anything from me. I'm not playing the paypal game to make people happy. Sure I could state local pickup on an ad, but since this paypal stuff started, everyone expects folks to both ship and accept paypal. If you don't, they respond with sarcastic replies that I don't need to put up with. I deal with enough road rage drivers during my days, to not need to read someone's smart comments in the evenings when I'm trying to relax. Now that I've stated all that to explain where I'm at with all this paypal nonsense, I may feel slightly safe to mention that one of the things I have LOCAL Pickup is an Eflite SeaFury old version, receiver ready with all quality gear for $100. I'm not going to bother putting it in the ads and get smart replies however, saying you need to ship and take paypal, etc. Yeah, you all can tell I really love paypal.
I Guess I am one of the lucky ones I have had to use paypal buyer protection a number of times, sometimes a buyer will not package a item right and it gets damaged in the mail, that has happened to me a few times, I received my money back, had to file a case, but i did get my money back, sometimes a seller wont send a item out that was purchased, i had to open cases and did get my money back, so far, i have always gotten my money back from a seller that was trying to rip me off, It does not happen to often, but it does happen, so far so good

I may be getting Older, But I Refuse to grow Up I am Having to much Fun to Grow Up LOL
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:13 AM   #14
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Paypal have given me a few refunds too. These were in cases of simple fraud where the buyer took the money but didn't send the goods, then disappeared. I got a full refund without any issue other than having to wait the set number of days to give the seller chance to respond (a week or 10 days from memory).
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:44 PM   #15
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The issue is the true scammers take their funds from the paypal account and even when you win you are stuck with no money.

I have been lucky - the only issue I had the seller was above ground and refunded me instantly. Interestingly PayPal sat on the money for a week. Must be nice for them to have that benefit!

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Old 11-22-2012, 05:24 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
The issue is the true scammers take their funds from the paypal account and even when you win you are stuck with no money.

I have been lucky - the only issue I had the seller was above ground and refunded me instantly. Interestingly PayPal sat on the money for a week. Must be nice for them to have that benefit!

Mike
Exactly, and that's the whole problem.
When you buy from a business, you can chargeback on your CC, giving you protection even when they aren't reputable. Of course it helps to choose reputable businesses, but with paypal you can't even take that route, unless the entire payment is made with a CC. In that case, I understand that paypal gets ticked off if you do a chargeback, even though it is your right.

I understand paypal has tried a more recent scheme with low transaction sellers of withholding funds until the buyer receives the package. That is unacceptable also however, as a good seller considers themselves reputable, and shouldn't put themselves in a position to be ripped off. If a seller decides to rip people off, they obviously will not allow paypal to withhold funds in the first place. Even a good seller can decide at any time to become a scammer, by having a seemingly awesome "sale" for example, which readily pulls in considerable funds. At that point, they are now the "true scammer" that Rcers has referred to. Once they have collected a large sum of money, but before the packages should be arriving for the buyers, they take the money and run.

The problem is that their protection is redundant, at best. The only people that will give you a refund, are ones that want to keep selling on ebay, and will take the loss. Otherwise they take the money and run. If they were selling like other vendors who use a card charging service, then you can still get the same protection from your CC company. Two problems here are that businesses are forced to take losses due to paypal's judgement, as well as paying them a high fee for basically nothing, as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:04 PM   #17
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No, Paypal themselves make the refund from their own funds even if the seller has run off with the money. I've had two such refunds, one for a reasonably substantial sum.

How refunds work for eBay Buyer Protection cases

When a case is decided in your favor, eBay will issue you a refund through PayPal, no matter how you paid for the item. PayPal then generally refunds that money to the source of the original funds.

Your refund will be sent to the PayPal email address you used to purchase the item (unless we let you know differently). Please allow 3 days after the case closes for the refund to be processed. For refunds of $1,000.00 or more, please allow 7 days.
http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/refunds.html

I used to quite resent the commission Paypal charged but now that I've benefited from the protection I don't think it's so bad.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:31 PM   #18
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I've never really had a bad buying experience on ebay but there's always a first time I suppose. Was wondering about RC "Gray Marketers". Found a new Futaba 8FG Super Airplane version Mode 2 with a 'buy it now' for $299.00 plus $16.00 shipping. The ultra low price seems too good to be true. Seller has a good rating.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:39 PM   #19
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If he's got a good feedback rating selling similar many items then you should be fine. Watch out for the guys who build up a profile by selling cheap junk then do a big 'sting' by listing lots of high price items simultaneously which they take the cash for, then disappear.

End of the day if it goes belly up Paypal will refund.

Steve
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:55 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post

End of the day if it goes belly up Paypal will refund.

Steve
Nope that is not correct on standard deals.

Here is a site with plenty of folks left holding the bag.

http://www.paypalsucks.com/

Here is the small print...only some deals qualify...not all.

For items purchased on eBay look for either a PayPal or eBay purchase or buyer protection message in the eBay listing. If you see a message and you meet the eligibility requirements, then your purchase is covered by PayPal Purchase Protection. The purchase or buyer protection message will vary based on the eBay website. The message must appear on the top part of the listing and not under the “Description” or “Shipping and Payments” tabs. If the listing does not include the purchase or buyer protection message, then it is not eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection.

So all the deals on other sites, personal transactions outside of Ebay are not covered.

Mike
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:25 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
Nope that is not correct on standard deals.
Mike,

I thought we were talking about eBay here, not deals done outside of ebay

Anyway, on eBay every listing I've seen lately has the Paypal protected logo . I've just looked through about 20 random items and cant find any without the buyer protection Logo.. So I would strongly argue that 'standard' eBay deals ARE protected. I have personally benefited from the protection a few times and the Paypal protection did exactly what it said on the tin.

I'm not claiming it's perfect and no doubt there are people who have had bad experiences, but if you check for the protection logo on the eBay listing and the transaction is 100% through eBay then you do have pretty thorough protection. I suppose these things work best in cases of clear fraud where the seller just takes the cash and runs, there is no debate on who's at fault. I also got an instant refund from Paypal once when I was supplied a non-genuine SD memory card, no questions asked and they didn't even ask me to return it. Paypal (not the seller) refunded me instantly.

Of course if you traul the net you will find people complaining about just about everything


Steve
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:20 PM   #22
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I get it Steve, I use eBay infrequently and see now many more deals there are covered. That is a change from my last experience too.

PayPal offers a great service but now that they are owned by eBay things have gone downhill IMHO.

My last deal on the forums went south and the seller (thankfully) immediaty refunded me. PayPal however did not. The stayed on "processing" for over a week. What a great positive cash flow for THEM.

And since that was an RCG deal I had no offer of protection.

One thing that I really hate is Paypal will freeze your funds when you move money from PayPal to the bank too. They just do very strange and non-standard (for banks) stuff. I keep mine at a zero balance and instant transfer from PayPal to bank right after I get sent money. Since many scammers do this I get put into that category with them. That really frosted my cookies. I had no recourse and they actually told me on the phone that I should just keep my money in the PayPal account to avoid the account freezing in the future. All this on an account with zero complaints or issues.

I told them it was my money and I could do what I wanted with it. That whole experience really turned me sour even though it happened several years ago. But there are no real other options.

I hope we have a competitor for them soon. That always tends to help monopolies from doing strange stuff like that.

Until then the service is still worth the hassle.

Mike
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Old 11-23-2012, 02:12 PM   #23
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I also used to enjoy eBay in the early days more. 'Back in the day' it was mainly private sellers and you could pick up some real bargains. You were also free to accept whatever payment type you wanted rather than having Paypal (convenient though it is) forced on you.

But i still use eBay a lot, not sure what I'd do without it to be honest.
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:00 PM   #24
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As the owner of an online hobby shop I think Paypal is great for the buyer but really is terrible for the seller. I had a customer that recently bought a Castle Ice 50 and a Scorpion 2221-6 from me. When he received the items he told Paypal the motor shaft was visually bent the solder job on the ESC was bad. Both items were new in the box, in fact I picked up the ESC and shipped it out the same day.

Paypal froze my account before I could even make a response to any accusations made against me. I work graveyard shift and the claim was filed at 2 PM and my account was frozen at 3PM. Even worse than that I had to PROVE the items I shipped were as describe which I could not do since they were new although I did provide the receipts showing when I purchased the ESC.

I contacted the buyer as soon as I could, asked him to send the item back, and I would refund his money. My account still was frozen though because he felt like I ripped him off since I did not respond in less than 1 hour.

Any how I got the items back, he got his money, and none of his claims were valid. The ESC was fine (normal Castle solder job) and I took the motor to the machine shop at work where the found less than .001 run out on the shaft. This buyer must have one heck of an eye.

My point is Paypal seems to think the seller is always wrong and the buyer is always right even thou in this case the buyer obviously changed his mind after the sale.

Mike

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Old 11-23-2012, 10:39 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Sir Crash-A-Lot View Post
My point is Paypal seems to think the seller is always wrong and the buyer is always right even thou in this case the buyer obviously changed his mind after the sale.

Mike
Mike, this has evolved over time. I recall back in the early days, there was lots of fraudulent transactions on Ebay. Something had to happen to protect the consumer which is Paypals/Ebay's mainline business. Also back in the days of Packard Bell, they did a study and found that if you have a satisfied customer, they MAY tell four people about their experience, but if you have a dissatisfied customer, they will tall a minimum of fourteen. Sad but honesty is not a virtue anymore.
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