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Old 10-30-2012, 11:49 PM   #1
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Default Static thrust measurement

Am I doing this right?



The scale is sitting on a board cantilevered out, the plane is hanging on a rope loop attached to that rectangular frame, which is bearing on the top of the scale. I zero the scale, loosely straddle the wing so the plane wont spin around, run the throttle up all the way and make a note of the weight displayed.

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Old 10-31-2012, 12:19 AM   #2
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I guess that should work but you will have to restrain the model from rotating due to torque. You will also have to make sure there are at least a couple of prop diameters of distance between the prop and the floor.

An easier way (assuming the plane has wheels) is just to put it on a flat smooth surface and use a digital fish scale to measure the 'pull'.
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Old 10-31-2012, 02:25 PM   #3
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That is a lot of worth for a nearly useless measurement = thrust. Go fly the airplane!

If you stick by the watts/pound rules well published you are good to go. In the air you can experiment with different propellers and pitches to match the airplane performance you want while keeping your power system happy (at or below 3w/gram).

In 33/34 years of RC flight - I have NEVER measured thrust on an airplane. Not sure why I would when "power" is the real measure I worry about.



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Old 10-31-2012, 02:46 PM   #4
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I'd not say static thruts was 'meaningless' but it's certainly not the whole picture and not a lot of use taken in isolation.. So I agree with Mike to a large extent.
But you could say the same for measuring power. Bolt a paint stirring stick to your motor instead of a prop and you might pull all the watts of power that you want but it wont make the plane go anywhere because there is no forward thrust. ok this is an extreme example but the principal is that it's not actually watts that pushes the plane through the air, it's thrust.
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Old 10-31-2012, 02:52 PM   #5
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...

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Old 11-01-2012, 02:24 AM   #6
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How many different ways are there to measure thrust?

1. Hanging from scale
2. on ground with fish scale
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:41 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by WayfaringDreamer View Post
How many different ways are there to measure thrust?

1. Hanging from scale
2. on ground with fish scale
I picked up a digital scale from Harbor Freight last year that seems to be fairly accurate. At least far more accurate than those spring scales. I've also got that scale shown in the photo above, this scale matches that scale within a few percent. The only problem with this unit, it keeps measuring until the pull force stabilizes. Then it holds the reading. So you can't watch the thrust values while varying the throttle on your transmitter.

Take a look:
http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-he...ale-97227.html

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Old 11-01-2012, 01:17 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by WayfaringDreamer View Post
How many different ways are there to measure thrust?

1. Hanging from scale
2. on ground with fish scale
You could also measure RPM. Given a known prop and RPM, you could use a calculator to get static thrust, output power and overall power system efficiency. Here's an example from DriveCalc's Simple Prop Calculator.


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Old 11-01-2012, 06:10 PM   #9
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Just ran across this post on rcgroups where they test by reversing the prop (pusher): http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...24&postcount=4


Denny do you use that Harbor Freight scale to weigh your planes as well? I'm thinking it might be easier to use then trying to get a plane to sit on a conventional mail type scale.
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:24 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by whitecrest View Post
You could also measure RPM. Given a known prop and RPM, you could use a calculator to get static thrust, output power and overall power system efficiency. Here's an example from DriveCalc's Simple Prop Calculator.
I've found significant variation between the calculated thrust and the real world thrust. Might be that variation results from the prop blast hitting the fuse, wings, and who knows what else?

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Old 11-01-2012, 06:36 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by WayfaringDreamer View Post
Just ran across this post on rcgroups where they test by reversing the prop (pusher): http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...24&postcount=4


Denny do you use that Harbor Freight scale to weigh your planes as well? I'm thinking it might be easier to use then trying to get a plane to sit on a conventional mail type scale.
Yup
I do use that HF scale to measure the weight of my models. All it takes is a sling made from some 3/16 soft window sash rope from your local hardware store. Just wrap it around the fuse in front of and in back of the wing. Then just hang the scale from the ceiling and hang the model by the sling.

Works very well.

I've got the HF 500g Model #GF5K01 scale, the HF 5000 g #95364 scale, and the 45 pound HF #97227 hanging scale. On a 7 ounce weight, all three scales are within 1% of each other. On a 148 ounce weight, the 5000g and the 45 pound scale also agree within 1% of each other. the 500g scale also comes with a 100 gram calibrate weight, it reads exactly 100g on that weight.

Not bad for the $$$$.

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Old 11-01-2012, 11:10 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
I've found significant variation between the calculated thrust and the real world thrust. Might be that variation results from the prop blast hitting the fuse, wings, and who knows what else?
Here's a comparison of calculated thrust to test stand data from the FlyBrushless.com site for a random motor turning a few selected props:

EMax BL 2210/30 data from FlyBrushless.com

6x4 APC E 14550 RPM
Calculated thrust: 451 g
Test stand thrust: 448 g

6x5 Aeronaut 13830 RPM
Calculated thrust: 425 g
Test stand thrust: 448 g

7x5 APC E 11250 RPM
Calculated thrust: 590 g
Test stand thrust: 625 g

8x4 GWS HD 10080 RPM
Calculated thrust: 560 g
Test stand thrust: 547 g

10x5 APC E 6330 RPM
Calculated thrust: 560 g
Test stand thrust: 558 g

For these samples, the test data and calculations seem to match up fairly well.

~Tim
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:24 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by whitecrest View Post
For these samples, the test data and calculations seem to match up fairly well.
So who recorded the data and was it installed in a plane or mounted on a test stand? You always get a fair bit less when mounted in a plane due to the drag from the cowl and the rest of the parts of the plane that the prop wash touches.
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:49 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
So who recorded the data and was it installed in a plane or mounted on a test stand? You always get a fair bit less when mounted in a plane due to the drag from the cowl and the rest of the parts of the plane that the prop wash touches.
Yeah
My tests were conducted by tying the tail of the airplane to the scale. IMHO, it's just not safe to put a 3000 watt motor on some sort of test stand.

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Old 11-01-2012, 11:56 PM   #15
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FWIW I checked a few of my thrust figures measured with motor installed in my planes and they are typically about 20% less than the DriveCalc numbers for the same prop and RPM.

Unless you plan on flying a bench then it's thrust in the plane that matters
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:45 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
So who recorded the data and was it installed in a plane or mounted on a test stand? You always get a fair bit less when mounted in a plane due to the drag from the cowl and the rest of the parts of the plane that the prop wash touches.
Here's a link to the data.

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Old 11-02-2012, 01:17 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
FWIW I checked a few of my thrust figures measured with motor installed in my planes and they are typically about 20% less than the DriveCalc numbers for the same prop and RPM.

Unless you plan on flying a bench then it's thrust in the plane that matters
Interesting
That's just what I found!

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Old 11-02-2012, 05:06 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
I guess that should work but you will have to restrain the model from rotating due to torque. You will also have to make sure there are at least a couple of prop diameters of distance between the prop and the floor.

An easier way (assuming the plane has wheels) is just to put it on a flat smooth surface and use a digital fish scale to measure the 'pull'.
The better way IMHO is to take the fish scale and hang in place of the elaborate gear OP is using ... that's how I do it.

My reasoning is that a) I am getting pure thrust as the weight of model / scales / rope is zeroed out, b) there is no drag or effects from floor or wheels or of lifting the scale / tether of the floor in the test.

Many will poo-poo this sort of test ... but as we d9o not have a wind-tunnel or sophisticated test facilities we can only do static thrust ... which I still believe is a good indicator for set-up of a model ... ie allied with wattmeter etc. helps decide props / EDF's etc.

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Old 11-02-2012, 05:16 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
I picked up a digital scale from Harbor Freight last year that seems to be fairly accurate. At least far more accurate than those spring scales. I've also got that scale shown in the photo above, this scale matches that scale within a few percent. The only problem with this unit, it keeps measuring until the pull force stabilizes. Then it holds the reading. So you can't watch the thrust values while varying the throttle on your transmitter.

Take a look:
http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-he...ale-97227.html

My $5 ebay scale reads as you advance throttle no problem ... it also has ability to remember results. It's small enough to sit in palm of hand .... reads in Lbs or Kgs ....






As another says - power is fine - but it's combinations of watts, thrust and various other factors that affect model performance. varying any one of these will make a difference. We cannot measure dynamic thrust - so have to resort to second best ... static.

I use a combination of :

Watts
RPM
Thrust

to arrive at my set-ups and so far works well.

Nigel

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Old 11-02-2012, 08:35 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
My $5 ebay scale reads as you advance throttle no problem ... it also has ability to remember results. It's small enough to sit in palm of hand .... reads in Lbs or Kgs ....






As another says - power is fine - but it's combinations of watts, thrust and various other factors that affect model performance. varying any one of these will make a difference. We cannot measure dynamic thrust - so have to resort to second best ... static.

I use a combination of :

Watts
RPM
Thrust

to arrive at my set-ups and so far works well.

Nigel
+1 thats the way i do it too works good enough for me

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Old 11-02-2012, 01:10 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
My $5 ebay scale reads as you advance throttle no problem ... it also has ability to remember results. It's small enough to sit in palm of hand .... reads in Lbs or Kgs ....

As another says - power is fine - but it's combinations of watts, thrust and various other factors that affect model performance. varying any one of these will make a difference. We cannot measure dynamic thrust - so have to resort to second best ... static.

I use a combination of :

Watts
RPM
Thrust

to arrive at my set-ups and so far works well.

Nigel
and the plane has a lot to do with what you will actually see because how draggy it is and how easily it slips through the air to unload the prop will have a lot to do with the "actual" versus this static thrust measurement. I'm doing prop testing on my Radian Pro and will probably pick up the HF scale to do the static thrust hang test also
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:40 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
My $5 ebay scale reads as you advance throttle no problem ... it also has ability to remember results. It's small enough to sit in palm of hand .... reads in Lbs or Kgs ....
Nigel,

I use the exact same scale, also purchased from ebay.

Only difference is I just do the tests with the plane sitting on it's wheels on the ground. In practice providing you use a smooth paved surface I'm sure that you will find the results identical to supending the plane. Testing it on the ground is just easier and if it's good enough for full size plane thrust tests then it's good enough for RC models.
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:18 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Nigel,

I use the exact same scale, also purchased from ebay.

Only difference is I just do the tests with the plane sitting on it's wheels on the ground. In practice providing you use a smooth paved surface I'm sure that you will find the results identical to supending the plane. Testing it on the ground is just easier and if it's good enough for full size plane thrust tests then it's good enough for RC models.
Except on powered gliders like the Radian Pro I'm testing... no wheels or prop clearance so I will use the hang method. Harbor Freight didn't have the above scale in my local store. The skew number wasn't even recognized
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Old 11-03-2012, 01:55 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by coreman View Post
Except on powered gliders like the Radian Pro I'm testing... no wheels or prop clearance so I will use the hang method. Harbor Freight didn't have the above scale in my local store. The skew number wasn't even recognized
If memory is correct, I picked up my HF scale through the HF internet site. Those scales have been seen since in our local HF store.

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Old 11-03-2012, 12:59 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
If memory is correct, I picked up my HF scale through the HF internet site. Those scales have been seen since in our local HF store.
just ordered mine. it even let me use the 20% off coupon code and get one of the freebee flashlights. Helps compensate fore the flat $6.99 shipping
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