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Electric Ducted Fan Jets Discuss electric ducted fan jets here including setup tips, power systems, flying techniques, etc.

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Old 01-29-2013, 11:26 PM   #1
aeroguy
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Default Highest Thrust EDF

Hi All,

I'm working on a project requiring a high thrust edf. I'm looking for something in the +40lb static thrust range in the 90 - 140mm range. I can't seem to find anything above the high 20's. Does anyone know of anything that might work in this range?

Thanks

Mike
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:50 PM   #2
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You wont do 40lb thrust with an EDF. You would be looking at one of the larger turbines, something like this: http://www.sitewavesstores5.com/mm5/...gory_Code=TURB

If you wanted 40lb thrust out of an electric set up then it would have to be a prop (a big one!)
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:06 AM   #3
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yeah that's a might big order to fill there. Even two BVM fans wouldn't do it...

http://www.bvmjets.com/Pages/electric.html

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Old 01-30-2013, 04:13 AM   #4
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Don't be discouraged; you'd probably be looking at something custom, or at least a multi EDF system. What did you have in mind to power something with so much oomph? Even my mother in law's broom struggles to maintain her mass in flight....
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Old 03-03-2013, 03:51 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by pattern14 View Post
Don't be discouraged; you'd probably be looking at something custom, or at least a multi EDF system. What did you have in mind to power something with so much oomph? Even my mother in law's broom struggles to maintain her mass in flight....
BWAHAHAHAHA that made me laugh. i always wondered how my sister inlaw powered her broom hahaha
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:11 AM   #6
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90-140mm range is out of bounds range for a subject with that thrust on either. It is not necessary
to attain 1:1 thurst to AUW for flight. Flight is typically an airframe at a weight 1.623 times the static
thrust in pounds.

Now, after rethinking your objects weight and shape...is it something best suited to a quad or still in
the realm of wings, stab, and fuselage with more forward than vertical motion?

What you are looking for is outside the (sUAS) world...and upstream in the UAS sector. All of what
you will find within these forums are sUAS.

Is your project more first person visually oriented?

Don't know that you noticed "everyone" came by to see what's up....over 200 in the blink of an eye.
With sUAS sensitivities raised its kinda freaky these days. Preservation of our rights is upper most on
our minds.

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Old 08-10-2013, 09:24 PM   #7
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Default Schubeler may have an answer

Originally Posted by aeroguy View Post
Hi All,

I'm working on a project requiring a high thrust edf. I'm looking for something in the +40lb static thrust range in the 90 - 140mm range. I can't seem to find anything above the high 20's. Does anyone know of anything that might work in this range?

Thanks

Mike
Hi, I just joined (will introduce myself shortly).

Schubeler may have what you need. Their current largest fan, the HST DS94, is 128mm dia and gives about 28lbs thrust in its most powerful motor option. But they have recently displayed, at one or two German shows, a larger one, but it not yet in production. Suggest emailing them (their address is on their website).
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Old 08-10-2013, 10:03 PM   #8
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We don't know the expected weight of the project... just his need for 40 lb+ thrust and apparently needing to stay under 140mm.

Inadequate data to judge what he is doing.

28lb static thrust is going to be close to the limit for a 5 inch / 127mm EDF. You get limited by the vacuum pulled at the front of the fan even with an ideal inlet ring. Less than ideal inlet ring and/or thrust tube and you won't do as well.
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:24 AM   #9
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I agree. He wont get much more than 28 lbs from that size fan (and certainly not from a 90mm one, which was the minimum size he mentions).

Do we need to know what he is doing? I don't think it matters. All he asked was to be pointed to a fan between 90mm and 140mm to give 40 lbs thrust.

I don't know the actual size of the new Schubeler one, but it is considerably more than the existing 128mm one. All I saw was Daniel Schubeler with the new larger one in one hand, and the current 128mm one in the other. Talking in a language I don't understand

Incidentally, I notice that you mention intake rings. From photos on the Schubeler site both he and some of his customers are now ending the intake duct 5 to 10 inches or so in front of the fan intake, with the bare fuselage inside, and a few minor accessories, such as wing bolts , the occasional wire, undercarriage air valve, etc, showing. Just like many do on turbine models. This allows them to use an intake ring, provided of course that the inlet to the bare unstreamlined area is sufficient.
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:43 AM   #10
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So, there you have it. 28 x 2= 56. Use two 127mm edf's
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:48 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by dahawk View Post
So, there you have it. 28 x 2= 56. Use two 127mm edf's
And I would guess a very heavy battery

Happy flying may your crashes be limited and if they are not limited let them be cool.
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:14 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Fishbonez View Post
And I would guess a very heavy battery
12S to 24S (I think 24 is max attempted in a model with 5 inch EDF so far) 4000 to 6000 mah
Per fan

12S 5000 mah is impressive to most people...
My BVM EVF is an older version, rated for just 12S because of the ESC.
With fresh packs (I use 3X 4S in series mostly) it pulls 105 amps for a true 5000 watts. 22 lb static but my nacelle is a "TLAR", not really a carefully designed one for best power. And I have that horziotal splitting the eflux and robbing power.
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Old 09-02-2013, 11:14 PM   #13
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There is more than a fair share of "speed freak" (top end) focus instead of increased thrust for ROG.
Larger models require more raw torque aka volume of air at higher rpm to get into the air where good
inlet and exhaust design rewards the project as the fan unloads at speed.

With about 20#~25# max thrust at 5" diameter, its not going to be safe to cross 50 volt threashold
to get more. The four performance fans, Dynamax, Violett, Stu Max, and Schubler have to be more
than a little concerned about pushing closer and closer to 50 volt. This gets to be a sincere liability
issue.

There were some 7" fans being developed but none have shown up on the radar. Discreationary income
has recovered such that it might be the time...since jets keep growing.

Ed Clayman
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Old 09-03-2013, 01:15 AM   #14
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http://www.bvmjets.com/Pages/EVF3_14.htm

Current version of my fan... same except the new version has a better ESC

EVF ~3~ 14S
21# of thrust – 6150 watts

I'll agree that more voltage won't improve static thrust. I actually get max static thrust at 75% throttle. 17 lbs at 100%.
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Old 09-03-2013, 07:58 AM   #15
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I don't think that 'Product Liability' laws worry anyone too much. Here in Europe we are expected to use commonsense. And from Great Planes 'get out' clauses in my 'Little Tony' 90 size ARTF manual, US citizens are too.

50 Volts? As Ed seems to like precise figures, a 14s pack at 3.6 volts per cell on load gives 50.4 volts, and off load, 4.2 volts per cell (remember it is voltage that is dangerous, not current) it gives 58.8 volts. Already over Ed's (arbitrary?) threshold.

Put it in perspective - my Mercedes, which is a whole lot more dangerous than any model plane, is not covered in safety stickers, and neither is its manual.
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:30 PM   #16
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Wow, you guys are talking about some big time power and thrust numbers here. Question 1 : Why not just go gas turbine? Seems like a cost/risk/reward issue. Saw where a guy mounted a gas turbine in the small eflight F4J Phantom II. Alot of thrust in a small package. That bird approached 200mph.

Question 2: For large capacity, high performing edf's as mentioned above, is there a special AMA waiver required like there is with gas turbines? I believe in the US anyway, you have to demonstrate to AMA reps that you can fly a turbine to gain an insurance waiver.

Not sure if that's the case in the UK. But when you've got an electric with the same type of performance rating as a gas turbine, I wonder if the same thing holds true.

Back to my 64mm toys- LOL

-Hawk
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Old 09-03-2013, 01:17 PM   #17
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I don't think it is a cost issue. Size for size there is little in it, particularly bearing in mind that you need two sets of batteries if you are to fly an EDF without large gaps between flights. I like 90mm EDFs and my 90mm EDF Black Horse ViperJet would be very suited to a small turbine such as the Wren 44 Gold. In fact I nearly purchased one for it last week. I worked out the weights carefully. EDF with 9s 4500 cells it weighs about 8.5 lbs. With the Wren turbine it would weigh about 9 lbs with a full one litre tank but would be much lighter than the EDF on landing.

But for me, there is too much 'faffing around' with turbines. Buying the kerosene in anything larger than pre-packed one gallon plastic containers is a fuss - it is nowadays rarely available in UK gas stations from the pump. Then I have to go a different place to buy motorcycle oil or turbine oil. Having the bearings replaced every 50 hours. Buy a CO2 fire extinguisher. Etc Etc.

Frankly, I can't be bothered.

We don't have any kind of 'waiver' in the UK. most 'serious' modellers are in a BMFA (similar to the AMA) and membership, including very good insurance is about 45 dollars a year. BUT - they have an 'Achievement Scheme', with an 'easy' grade and a higher grade. It was only ever meant to be just your own 'personal' achievement and nothing more. Not a 'licence' or anything. But some busybody, rule-minded clubs are now, totally ignoring what it was intended to be, treating it as a 'licence' and won't even let you fly a foam park flyer without the 'easy' level certificate. I have no time for such petty dictators, and in any case, BMFA insurance fully covers every member, and every conceivable model, power unit(s), etc. even if you have never flown anything.

The UK Civil Aviation Authority require that you apply for an 'exemption' certificate if your model or models are over a certain weight, bu8t it is merely an 'automatically granted' formality.
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Old 09-03-2013, 01:41 PM   #18
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PS: I have personal views about people who always build very large models. But each to their own. I build everything from little electrics, modified from small rubber kits, such as the Guillows and Dumas ranges, that I can fly both at our field and in my backyard, to big and heavy ones. I have the TopFlite ARTF Cessna 310 (20 pounds weight) still in its box until I decide how to power it. A couple of 80 four strokes would sound nice, but can I cope with an engine failure on takeoff!.

Small ones are more fun. Build em, fly em, and no worries if I destroy it by hitting my garden shed.
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Old 09-03-2013, 06:46 PM   #19
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There is a cost issue... the high end EDF is about $1300. A cheap turbine is over $3000.

Lower risk of fire with the EDF.

No AMA waiver and no max speed limit for EDF.
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Old 09-03-2013, 08:05 PM   #20
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Fred,
yes but.... they don't sound as cool !- LOL
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Old 09-03-2013, 09:15 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
There is a cost issue... the high end EDF is about $1300. A cheap turbine is over $3000.

Lower risk of fire with the EDF.

No AMA waiver and no max speed limit for EDF.
Very little cost issue. I just looked up their current prices. The European ones include the 19% tax that applies throughout the EEC. The BVM fan price is as they quote (I don't know how US taxes work). None of them are their 'top' versions, just a good mid-range unit. I converted the European ones to dollars.

BVM EVF3 12s $1495

Schubeler DS-77 HST $2041

Wren Turbines Jubilee $2183

The EDFs include the speed controller.

The Wren is one of the best turbines available. So much so that several other manufacturers use their turbine blade and flow straightener.

Then, for EDF you have to buy the batteries. BVM quote $749 per set. And if you get 100 flights before they need replacing you are doing very well.

Fire risk - agreed. We are not allowed to use turbines in the UK government-run forest site where we fly.

Turbine waiver - only applies in US. Isn't this an 'international' site?

In the UK the BVM fan costs more than the Wren turbine. As you are not in the EEC we pay import duty. THEN they add the 19% tax.
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Old 09-04-2013, 02:40 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
We don't know the expected weight of the project... just his need for 40 lb+ thrust and apparently needing to stay under 140mm.

Inadequate data to judge what he is doing.

28lb static thrust is going to be close to the limit for a 5 inch / 127mm EDF. You get limited by the vacuum pulled at the front of the fan even with an ideal inlet ring. Less than ideal inlet ring and/or thrust tube and you won't do as well.
Today, a club member (wet turbine flyer) mentioned this EDF source. Be prepared for sticker shock. Not to mention the cost of the batteries, and the ESC that can handle the 300 Amps this unit pulls. That is near 14 Kilowatts, or 18 horsepower!

http://shulmanaviation.com/product_i...oducts_id=2748

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Old 09-04-2013, 03:24 AM   #23
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BVM quotes $750 a set of LiPo packs... But I pay $120 a set, including shipping.
Gotta be nuts to buy the packs from BVM.

And with the turbine you buy 1/2 to 2 gallons of fuel per flight.
I hook up to a deep cycle marine battery and recharge at virtually $0 per charge.
Life of the battery packs appx 3 years and 500 cycles before getting demoted to other uses.
How much would the kerosene for 500 flights cost?
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Old 09-04-2013, 03:33 AM   #24
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Denny,

You're buddy is one sick puppy !
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Old 09-04-2013, 04:00 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
Today, a club member (wet turbine flyer) mentioned this EDF source. Be prepared for sticker shock. Not to mention the cost of the batteries, and the ESC that can handle the 300 Amps this unit pulls. That is near 14 Kilowatts, or 18 horsepower!

http://shulmanaviation.com/product_i...oducts_id=2748
Speechless I want one for what I have no idea but I want one

Happy flying may your crashes be limited and if they are not limited let them be cool.
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