Slow Stick Weight

[Dan Cheraz]

My first plane is a GWS Slow Stick. Currently with a new Ni-MH 9.6V 1100 mAH battery installed the plane won't rise more than about 2 feet off the ground. The plane weighs 24 oz ready to fly. The assembly instructions say the flying weight should be 15.9 to 21.2 oz. Would the extra 2.8 oz keep the plane on the ground? If so would a more aggressive prop overcome the weight problem? The supplied prop is a 10X6 I'm thinking of going to a 10x7 or 10x8. Any advise would be appreciated.

[BroncoSquid]

What motor do you have? Sounds like you need more motor. I understand the stock motor is just good enough to make it fly stock.

[flydiver]

How old is the battery? What is it's history?
What charger are you using?
What is you knowledge level about NiMh charging?
Do you KNOW the battery is properly charged?
Charging NiMh can be a problem, especially if the battery is old or of questionable value.
Note - if you are trying to use consumer grade AAA or AA cells in a holder....forget it, won't work.

The battery+motor+prop provide the power so we need to know details about the whole package.

[mclarkson]

My stick is 22 ounces, all up and definitely isn't two ounces away from not flying.

The others ask good questions. Throw out some more details of your battery, ESC, motor, gearbox (if any), etc.

As to the size of the prop, it depends on the rest of the equipment. The best way to tell is with a wattmeter.

[Dan Cheraz]

The motor is listed as an EDP-400C. The battery is brand new from the local hobby shop who had to order it. The charger is also new and is an ONYX200 made by Duratrax. I have no way to tell if he battery is fully charged exept believing the charger's indicator. It is for charging NiMH or NiCD. I charged at the lowest current , 1.5A, as recommended in the charger instructions.

[pizzano]

I have used the very same motor w/gear box on SS that are 18oz. to 26oz. with APC 10x5 and GWS 10x4.7 props....but I also use 7.4v 1600mah lipo's....I've never used Ni-MH batteries due to poor performance and awkward size.

10x6 or 10x7 props should not be an issue....the lower pitch gives a little more flight time with little difference in speed.

You may want to switch over to a lipo battery in the future anyway.

[hayofstacks]

is your prop on backwards?

The stock gearbox and brush motor kinda sucks. But it is pleanty to pull a slow stick off of the ground. I think weight is your issue. I have flown mine with up to 26oz on weight with the stock brushless motor, but that was about 130watts. I think my dads stock slow stick with a brushed motor and a 1000mah lipo was 16ish oz and only about 70w if I remember correctly.

Get yourself a cheap 400-450 sized brushless motor and appropreately sized esc along with a 1000-2200mah. 2 or 3 cell battery. I like a 1800mah 3 cell and 450 sized motor at about 240watts and a 10-11" prop. The 1300mah 3 cell is a very common "standard".

Get this
http://www.headsuprc.com/servlet/the...ushless/Detail

This is the best replacement for a stockish setup. I ran this motor with a 18 amp speed control, 9X6 prop and a 1300mah. Almost unlimited verticle, and a fairly cheap setup. Should be able to get motor, speed control and batteries for less then $50 with $2 shipping. When you get the plane down good, go with the powerup 450 sport from heads up and have a good motor ready for your next park flier. You won't belive the differance in flight times and performance as well as weight with a lipo battery and good brushless combo.

Make sure you get a prop saver and cut the shaft short so that you don't bend shafts as easy.

[flydiver]

Look at this page and see what gearbox and ratio you have:
http://www.gwsus.com/english/product...em/eps400c.htm

Unfortunately there is no stock SS system. There are a lot of variations and it makes a BIG difference.

If you can take back the battery and charger and go to lipo now you'll be way ahead.
The charger is fine, but quite basic and ultimately limited. You will outgrow it very quickly unless you have some other sport that consumes a lot of NiXX batteries. I do and have a Duratrax Piranha that I like but it's a much better charger.

[pizzano]

Common haystacks......."is the prop on backwards"....lol...The guy stated he gets 2' of lift...I just attempted it! (for the heck of it since I've never done it and to see how you get these "out of nowhere" responses).....lol.....what lift..? all I did was push the Stick all over the place.....NO Lift.....lol

I'm a big fan of the Power Up 400 Sport Outrunner Brushless. I have used 4 of them now for Sticks (there out of stock, should be in stock soon).....and you don't need to cut the shafts on them to fit a APC or GWS 10" prop. Will work with both a 2cell 7.4v and 3cell 11.1v....don't forget a 20amp "brushless" ESC.
I'd recommend a prop saver also!

[hayofstacks]

You can fly with your prop on backwards... you just won't get much thust. First time I broke a prop while I was flying by myself(I was super green), I flew around a couple laps with the prop on backwards.

[offtom]

Originally Posted by hayofstacks

You can fly with your prop on backwards... you just won't get much thust. First time I broke a prop while I was flying by myself(I was super green), I flew around a couple laps with the prop on backwards.

Agree with hayofstacks on this as a possible solution to the problem, silly as it may sound. Take a look at the prop and see if the numbers are facing forward. If they are, then this isn't the problem. If they're not then turn your prop around and give it a go.

Might save you a lot of money trying to solve this problem.

[pizzano]

LOL...."as silly as this may sound".....getting a SS to lift "off the ground" more than 2' with a 10x6 prop on back-wards"..... not keeping it in the air or hand launching it....

I just tried it again (ground launch) on both SS, with ailerons and one without, 10x5 APC and 10x4.7 GWS props, 400 Sport Outrunner, 7.4v 1600 lipo........with a head breeze of about 3mph........I may just vid this to prove the point!

I'm getting absolutelty no positive forward lift, (other than the breeze), from this set-up The tail just wiggles and plants it's self into the ground.......what am I doing wrong......lol (other than responding to this nonsense)....lol...it's on the internet, so it must be true....lol

Is this info really helping Dan out....? Probably some (I hope). If anything, he's quickly found out that although many are willing to give advise and have good intentions, there's nothing better than gathering all the info you can get, apply what makes "sense" and what you can safely accomodate and pass the rest off as "grains of salt"!

Dan, hope you get the issue sorted out. There are many good ways to solve a problem, many here are very experienced and provide pratical, safe methods of application. Use caution, and verify your sources of information.

[Dan Cheraz]

Thanks to everyone for all of the advice. Perhaps I should have mentioned originally that this plane has flown once. After assembling the plane and adding an 8.4V 600 mAH Ni-MH Battery that the hobby shop had suggested, I asked an experienced flier to trim it which he did. Then I tried to fly it and had 2 successful one lap flights. On the 3rd flight I nosed it in pretty hard requiring some rework. After fixing the plane I found out the Battery and receiver were damaged. I replaced the receiver and that's when I went to the 9.6 V 1100 mAH Ni-MH battery. The difference in weight between the 2 batteries is only about 1 oz. I'm brand new to this sport but at 71 years old, retired, and an electronics technician I do see the logic of things. By the way, the prop is correctly mounted.

[flydiver]

Nosed it in hard enough to damage the RX and battery? Mmm, but not the motor/gearbox which is on the front? Just asking.....

1 oz is not an issue for the SS. The battery is one cell up which should be MORE power. So.....SOMETHING.....in the power plant is not performing up to snuff.

If I were you I'd go find that experienced flyer again instead of trying to work this out via the internet, that's the hard way.

[pizzano]

That's a smart approach Dan......

The Slow Stick is C/G (center of gravity) sensitive due to its light weight and length...a "little" nose heavy will fly much more stable and forgiving. So when you convert to a Lipo battery, a bit of adjustment to the wing and battery location will be an easy fix.

Glad you got her in the air initially....seems the problem is still a power issue.......either esc related or gear box issue. A new battery should have eliminated the power source question......I'm not sure if going from 8.4v to 9.6v has any effect, but the ESC may have a problem or been damaged in some way with the first mishap. You might try replacing it with another.

The SS is a great trainer and inexpensive to have hours of flight fun.......and you'll learn much about set-up, repair and basic flight....as you are now getting into.

Edit:

Once you get the power issue sorted out and revise the C/G....remember to check your rudder and elevator control linkage throw. I have found that any adjustment to the wing and C/G will often change the linkage to either increase or decrease the deflection, causing not enough or to much initial surface control angle of the rudder/elevator.
Center both servo arms and adjust (move) the linkages (with TX tab adjustments centered) to provide a level flat surface on the elevator and a straight, vertical line to the rudder. Start with the servo arm setting (hole) furthest out from the servo for the elevator and the (hole) in the middle of the servo arm for the rudder.

After you've set that up, you may find it better to adjust the elevator to have a little more lift (elevator up) for take off's and initial climb rate....especially if you set it up a little nose heavy.

From there, everything becomes a personal preferance issue and skill development.......like mentioned preciously, having an experienced pilot help you is the best and fastest direction to take.

Hope this "internet" help makes sense and provides a little value.

[hayofstacks]

Originally Posted by pizzano

LOL...."as silly as this may sound".....getting a SS to lift "off the ground" more than 2' with a 10x6 prop on back-wards"..... not keeping it in the air or hand launching it....

I just tried it again (ground launch) on both SS, with ailerons and one without, 10x5 APC and 10x4.7 GWS props, 400 Sport Outrunner, 7.4v 1600 lipo........with a head breeze of about 3mph........I may just vid this to prove the point!

I'm getting absolutelty no positive forward lift, (other than the breeze), from this set-up The tail just wiggles and plants it's self into the ground.......what am I doing wrong......lol (other than responding to this nonsense)....lol...it's on the internet, so it must be true....lol

Is this info really helping Dan out....? Probably some (I hope). If anything, he's quickly found out that although many are willing to give advise and have good intentions, there's nothing better than gathering all the info you can get, apply what makes "sense" and what you can safely accomodate and pass the rest off as "grains of salt"!

Dan, hope you get the issue sorted out. There are many good ways to solve a problem, many here are very experienced and provide pratical, safe methods of application. Use caution, and verify your sources of information.

I can tell you exactly what your doing wrong...

I had a 10 X 6 gws prop on three cells. I was probably well over 150watts total power, and it barely flew. Now divide that by 1/3rd and you have your setup.

And btw, I garentee you can can count on one finger how many times I have hand launched my slow stick. I always do a rog takeoff.


I think you have a good point though...
I'd think that the gearbox could be bent/binding. Gears are very particular to how the gears mesh.

[pizzano]

Hayofstacks.......I give up.....lol

Sorry, I don't trust your math (1/3 the power).....I'm running with a 400 brushless and 10x5 prop, 7.4v 1600mah.......since, regardless of the additional wattage your 450 may be able to pull and the amount of rpm's it can deliver....the backwards prop is forcing air flow in the opposite direction of any of the planes air surfaces.....

The incremental "backwash" the prop provides reversed has little to no lift.... "Lift (or forward motion) is created by making the air pressure lower on the front of the propeller blade than the back so the aircraft is actually being pulled / pushed forward by air pressure rather than being pushed by thrust"...straight from Aviation Digest.

I've been following many of your posts. Quite honsetly, I've lost confidence in your suggestions. Especially after having tested a few of your ideas (which I do with any source I find suspicious, impractical or abusive (un-safe or harmful to the equipment) much like the care you've exhibited during flight of your Slow Sticks....lol

I think, from what I've seen lately, it would be best for me to just avoid any of hayofstacks future posts. Experience tells me nothing positive will gained by continuing to fight an up-hill battle of wits.

Dan, I appologize for the high-jack of this link......hope there will be others here more knowledgeable about the SS then myself, that will chime in with ideas.

[hayofstacks]

Slow stick.. I have only had one slow stick.

I have no idea what you mean by impractical or abusive practices. The planes are ment to fly, not sit there.

As a 3rd generation airplane pilot, with well over 100 airframes that HAVE flown, I think I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about. My father has been solo'd since 1974, I started flying when I was 3. I solo'd on a das ugly stick bipe with a wankle rotarty motor. My grandfather flew freeflight right after world war 2. My great uncle was vice president of western airlines. My other great uncle was clouse hill. A famous ultralight airplane designer. He has two airplanes in the smithsonian. I have airplanes built by some former grand national designers. I've been around the block a few times. I'm not trying to turn this into a pissing match.

You will get forward thust from a backwards prop, unless you reverse the directin of the motor. I can't be the only one that busted a prop and tried to throw one on real quick for one last flight.

[hayofstacks]

http://www.headsuprc.com/servlet/the...0-Sport/Detail

2 cells with a 10 X 6 gives you 11 amps. A 10 X 5 should be about 10. So my 450 running a 10 X 5 would be about 22amps, but also at a higher 11v's. Meaning you had about 75 watts, while I was pushing 22-24 amps giving me well over 240watts. Any where else I've been, 75 watts is about 1/3rd of 240. Not bad for a guess.

[RepRapper]

Dan I think this is all pretty silly, in a nutshell you need more power. Here is a video of a slowstick flying with a 400 brushed engine on 11 volts. This is me with hayofstacks voice in the background. I can tell you that hayofstacks is the most gifted pilot I have ever seen. When I was learning to fly I was told to always make sure that the person teaching at least knew how to fly. We had a guy that taught himself how to fly on other peoples airplanes and crashed plenty of them. Here is a video of me flying a slow stick at the park

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C18N6upwm1Y


The reason I am flying so low is one for the camera and to make the video interesting. The other is the plane is very limited on power. I was not happy with this slowstick until I put a brushless motor and a 3 cell lipo on it. At the very minimum add a cell or two and bring your voltage up to 11 volts. We were flying at 4700 ft and about 90 degrees that day.