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Old 04-04-2013, 09:01 AM   #1
250rman
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Default Gws slow stick ailerons dihedral qustion?

Hi Guys,

I just purchased a GWS SLOW STICK with a Powerful Brushless 450 880kv Motor, running a 12" Prop! I am in the process of adding Ailerons to the Stock Wing!

My BIG QUESTION is DIHEDRAL!! I have read about many Successful Builds with using the Plastic Stiffener & Carbon Fiber Rods, giving the Wing around 10 Degrees of Positive Dihedral! Many People have claimed that this is a Great Build when using the Ailerons. There are also many people that insist on Straightening the Wing for 0 Dihedral by using ONE thicker piece of Carbon Fiber or aluminum straight across the Leading edge of the Stock Wing! Some even claim that there is little difference in the Performance of the Ailerons when building the Wings with 10 Degrees of Dihedral! Saying that a Straight Wing is a MUST!?!

My Goal is to have this SS Fly with more Control & Performance, and at the same time not forget that it is a SLOW STICK and not an Acrobatic Flyer!

Any Help or Suggestions would be Appropriated!
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:39 AM   #2
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When changing from rudder-elevator throttle to aileron elevator rudder throttle you typically need to reduce dihedral 50% to 75%. I don't recommend flat.

This will still allow some roll with rudder.

You also will want significant differential aileron throw with the underchambered wing of the Slow Stick. I'd start with the linkages arranged for 50% as much downward travel as upward. This is (assuming 2 servos and control horns on the bottom surface ) having the servo arm angled forward about 30 deg while still having the aileron control horn 90 deg to the control surface.

More dihedral and/or lack of differential can result in adverse yaw, where the drag of the aileron coming down overpowers the turning effect of roll and can cause a spin opposed to the desired direction of turn in extreme cases.

I have seen cases where there was NO downward aileron movement, just upward. This is similar to the B-52's use of spoilers instead of ailerons. Kill lift and add drag on the side you want to turn toward. Obviously not great for most aerobatic designs, but it may be the way to go with the slow stick when converting to 4 channels.
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:59 AM   #3
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When you say "significant differential aileron throw with the underchambered wing", are you saying that I want the Ailerons to "Move" as far Up & Down as I can get them?? I am not sure what Differential Aileron Throw means.
Also, regaurding the Servos, could you explain in Simpler terms of how I should mount & Setup the servos please. Sorry, this is my first Build, don't know all the terminology yet. Thx
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:47 PM   #4
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I made mine flat as a board, works great' bubsteve


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Old 04-04-2013, 05:11 PM   #5
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There are many of us here that enjoy the Slow Stick and there are a few dedicated posts for such.....but I have found this link to be the most complete and covers several methods to modify the Stick....to include ailerons, chopped wings, vertical stablizer mod's and a like:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1581915

Given, the Slow Stick is a very light "glider" type craft, which can be mod to scream or hover.....my experience with ailerons on the stock set-up and factory dihedral has not improved the performance that much other than giving the pilot (newbie) an opportunity to get acquainted with a 4channel mix........

Like stevecooper has suggested.....flat to a few degrees of dihedral will make some difference along with advancing the servo arm and clevis throw to be more responsive.......as far as the degree of aileron surface angle when engaged, I find, for my style of flying, 30 to 40 degrees of balanced aileron movement is plenty....after all, it is designed to be a "slow" gliding flier!

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Old 04-04-2013, 05:12 PM   #6
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What is your flying experience? I am a realtive noob when it comes to flying. I have a SS with alerions and I left the wing dihedral as is. I can fly it with alerions, just with rudder, or both and still get away with some mistakes. Yeah she won't roll well, but it is cheap and easy to get another wing, build it flat, then swap it out.

I'm either going to get good at flying em, or get good at fixin em!
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Old 04-04-2013, 08:00 PM   #7
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I'm an Intermediate Flyer. I own a Radian, T-28, Art Tech 2.4 Meter Diamond Powered Glider, and a SR22. So my experiance with Flying with Ailerons & Flaps are extensive. But, this is my first Slow Stick. I am just looking for more Performance & Handability on this SS.
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Old 04-04-2013, 08:14 PM   #8
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with the wing flat and near 1/2 the fuse chopped off is when she got fun, loops near inside itself , rolls are still slower than one might like,,
bubsteve


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Old 04-04-2013, 08:23 PM   #9
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Differential aileron is making the aileron moving one direction have more travel than the aileron moving the other direction. Typically it is more upward than downward.

Lets say you are doing a right turn. You'd have the right aileron move up and the left move down. With differential the right one would move more than the left.
From there its a matter of how aggressively you are turning, size of the ailerons and how much differential you have.

Adjusting this can be done mechanically or with a computer radio.

When I know I will be using differential I always do as much mechanically as practical. This is old habits of setting up an airplane I am not sure if there is a real advantage by doing it mechanically vs by computer.

The issue is "adverse yaw" which is the plane wanting to turn one way by the commanded ailerons and the other way due to the added drag. The aileron moving down tends to add more drag per degree than the aileron moving up. Sometimes this is significant, sometimes it is not. With a large aileron and underchambered wing it will be significant but rudder/fin size can still overcome the adverse yaw in some designs.

*********************

Never had a slow stick... but I have had several hundred different aircraft over the past appx 40 years.
Generalized "rules" for making modifications give a high chance of good result. But actual testing always wins. If the flat wing is working great I can't argue that leaving some dihedral in is better without having 2 models to test against each other.

Copying what someone else has done with success does tend to give a high chance of success.
Adjust from there to get the plane flying the way you want.
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Old 04-04-2013, 09:36 PM   #10
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For what it's worth, my Slow Stick has a small dihedral of about 1.8 degrees per wing. The added ailerons are longer than the ailerons stamped on the wing; I made them as long as possible.


Here it is flying.
YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


I keep meaning to put some differential in there, as it's been recommended, but I haven't actually remembered thus far, so that video is sans differential.


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Old 04-04-2013, 09:40 PM   #11
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Thank you fhhuber & Pizzano. That's some great Info, just what I needed!

Again, I'm not trying to make my SS into some Crazy All-Out Acrobatic Flying machine, I'm wanting more Control to be able to handle my Brushless 450 Motor, and to be able to Handle better in 5-10 mph Winds. Yes, I certainaly won't mind a little extra Acrobatic Performance, but with out jepordising the integridy of the Slow Stick!

So the Dihedral is still my Only Issue now! Going Flat or Wing or Slight Dihedral?!? Going Flat makes me think that this will make it not Fly so smooth & a lot less forgiving.
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Old 04-04-2013, 09:47 PM   #12
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Yes, flat tends to be somewhat less forgiving. But one of the most forgiving full scale aircraft ever designed has a flat plank wing...

Peitenpol Air Camper. This ancient design is still a popular homebuilt. Originally intended for a Model A Ford engine (its that old) now commonly built with VW conversions.

Its worst feature is lack of differential ailerons making it want to have very bad adverse yaw.
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Old 04-15-2013, 05:01 AM   #13
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Please don't ignore the position of the wing. The Pietenpol has a very high wing relative to the fuselage/thrust line, the Slow Stick does not. I put polyhedral on my SS, and it is capable of being whipped into a very tight turn, no ailerons. It is still a very good trainer, but capable of wild aerobatics, but not inverted.
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Old 04-15-2013, 05:07 AM   #14
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Mine's only built that way 'cuz I screwed up the dihedral during the build.

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Old 04-15-2013, 05:18 AM   #15
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Need for differential is more often due to the airfoil than the wing position.

symetrical (full aerobatic) airfoils usually need little to no differential aileron throw.

Flat bottom airfoils and deeply underchambered typically need a lot of differential.

Rudder and fin area + "moment arm" can affect how much you notice the need for differential.

Attempt an axial roll with no correction (just hammer the ailerons while flying at speed)
Ignore the tendency for the nose to drop... that's more related to CG + "decalage" than differential.
If it rolls essentially on a line through the root of the wing you don't need differential. (or you have the differential right)
If it barrels (typically around a line well above the wing) then you need (some/more) differential.
Excess differential will barrel around a line below the wing.

For a mid-wing "0-0-0" design such as used in Pattern aerobatic competition the differential (very slight in most cases) is adjusted to achieve an axial roll around the thrust line which is also the fuselage center-line and is the center-line of the wing.

**************

Peitenpol's high mounted wing gives "pendulum effect" style stability, which can replace dihedral.

Wing sweep can also replace dihedral.
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:10 AM   #16
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Here is an Update on my GWS Slow Stick. I took all the great advice from all of you an decided to go with about 2 Degrees of Dihedral! Just wasn't convinced in going with a FLAT wing. Thanks for all the help on this. I will post a couple of pics of the Wing at the bottom of this post.

My last Question now is, whether to use any Differential or not. If so, how much exactly. I have heard different "Build Successes" with guys having the BOTTOM Aileron having more throw than the TOP Aileron, and others who claim the BOTTOM Aileron should have only a little and the TOP having much more?!? I even have heard that they should be Balanced Equally!
Any help you may have would be Appreciated!


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Old 04-18-2013, 09:47 AM   #17
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It may depend on your expectations.........Since you have maintained a bit of dihedral, and the stock SS wing has "cupped" wing tips, I see no need to advance the aileron differential throw...I've used a balanced set-up...equal throw in both directions due to the fact that with dihedal and cupped tips, the plane will have tendency to "self correct"...with and without ailerons....that's the reason I prefer to fly this "floater" just with rudder. But, then again, mine are set-up to be SLOW FLYERS. I spend as much time gliding as I do looping and banking, which are not rapid-turn-on-a-dime sport plane actions with my Sticks.

All depends on what your intentions are.....after all, there's a reason they call the Stock bird a "Slow Stick"....for a reason.....lol

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Old 04-18-2013, 11:00 AM   #18
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Then how much throw should I have on the Ailerons if I do a Ballanced Setup? How many Degrees should my Aileron Lift be, or how many inches should the Aileron Lift or Drop from the wing?


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Old 04-18-2013, 03:42 PM   #19
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I set mine 15 to 20 degrees when I used ailerons. It didn't make much difference.

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Old 04-18-2013, 03:52 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by TLyttle View Post
Please don't ignore the position of the wing. The Pietenpol has a very high wing relative to the fuselage/thrust line, the Slow Stick does not. I put polyhedral on my SS, and it is capable of being whipped into a very tight turn, no ailerons. It is still a very good trainer, but capable of wild aerobatics, but not inverted.
I have a vid here somewhere of me fly'in a whole lipo out (ten min, ) inverted, I'll look it up bubsteve


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Old 04-18-2013, 04:14 PM   #21
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Here's what I think cooper is talking about, with an explanation to it's effectiveness:

Unless it's (polyhedral) some kind of fabric or surface covering....lol

http://www.rc-soar.com/tech/spiral_eda.htm

The only drawback I see is the wing better not shift to much during flight...which they Tend to do on the SS unless you attach it fixed or permanently......after you have the C/G you prefer sorted out.....any change in battery size and location will require the wing to be moved since the C/G on this lite bird is sensitive.

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Old 04-18-2013, 07:13 PM   #22
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repeated previous info
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