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Power Systems Talk about motors, ESC speed controllers, gear drives, propellers, power system simulators and all power system related topics

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Old 04-08-2013, 04:10 PM   #1
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Question convert brushed power sys to brushless?

Hello
Very new to the field of rc.Played a little w/freeflight rubber powered 20 yrs ago(very little)Started back up building models as way to keep hands busy.Stated w revelle plastic kit of 1903 Wright Flyer 18in ws,moved up to Guillows stick and tissue 24in ws.I am now almost finished w the Dare 1909 Military Flyer 40in ws Paul Trittle design ( something about the early aircraft that I find......?)I am at a point where need to put together a power set-up.I understand that the power sys recommended in kit instructions is a little dated,and and I would like to update it.This is the area I need some help.The sys recommended consists of 2 MPI 5.9:1 geared motors a 5 amp B.E.C. and 8 cell 280 mah batt.This set-up is brushed,want to use brushless.I've been looking around and I think I can use a pair of Turnigy 1230 w/mini gearbox sys???The numbers are very similar.Trying to be as economical as possible(unemployed,no benifits)Would these motors be a suitable substitution?Also will need some info on how to wire this up; 2 motors,counter rotating props,2 ESCs I understand one for each motor is needed.Generally speaking when it comes to things elec my brain cells take a vacation.If someone could take me by the hand on this it would be greatley appreciated.
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Old 04-08-2013, 05:06 PM   #2
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Hi GaryJ, welcome to WF! Have you already looked through the thread, Everything You Wanted to Know About Electric Powered Flight? It'll help clear up some of the mysteries and give you some guidance with motor selection, thought when it comes to multi engine and geared motors, I'm not sure how or if that affects the watts per pound guide you'll find in there. Anyway, I'm sorry I'm not experienced enough to help much on this matter, other than pointing you to that guide and letting you know your post didn't fall on deaf ears! There's lots of smart folks around here and hopefully someone with more knowledge will chime in shortly.
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Old 04-08-2013, 05:39 PM   #3
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The big boost in performance is from the change from NiCd/NiMh to LiPo. You can get double the energy storage in half the weight. This is huge because the battery has always been a major percentage of the weight of any electric powered model.

The motor is a much smaller percentage of the model weight. You get about the same power in 50% of the weight by going from brushed (ferrite magenet) to brushelss (rare earth magnet)
Just upgrading the brushed to rare earth magnets gives almost half the weight savings to get the same power...

Most people associate the performance increase with the brushless motor because brushless and LiPo became popular about the same time. But its really more about the battery.

So... you can leave the brushed motors in the airplane and move to LiPo gaining a large performance increase due to the lower weight at the same time as you gain almost double the flight time per charge.

Yes, you gain a little more by going brushless at the same time. But you'll have a hard time finding that low of a power brushless motor!

2DogRC.com has some small brushless outrunners that will turn the same prop as your kit recommends... at 2 times the RPM as the brushed motor recommended.

You'll find you want to keep the recommended prop size. So I would either go with the recommended motor (GWS still makes it) and brushed ESC (Castle Pixie 7p) or I'd get the 2DogRC motor (15 gram outrunner if I remember correctly... I bought a pair for a Dumas/Trittle DH Dragon Rapide... recommends the same motors as your model)

You'll possibly want to "adjust" the battery compartment to fit a bigger battery to add weight...

Just Y connect the ESCs to the throttle channel if using Castle... everything will be fine.
If using other brands you usually need to disable one BEC or put in diodes to prevent the BEC sections from backfeeding each other destroying both ESCs (and maybe starting a fire)

If doing brushed you can use just one ESC.
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Old 04-08-2013, 06:31 PM   #4
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Thanks for the info.Did check out some of the info forums,a lot of technical stuff.Brings me back 40 yrs to "p" school ( USMC/AW Cherry Point HMS 20 Harrier AV-8A )reading some of that feels like back in school.If I undrestand the diff between inrunner and outrunner,if I use an outrunner then a gearbox would be unneccesary?
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Old 04-08-2013, 06:46 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by GaryJ View Post
Hello
Very new to the field of rc.Played a little w/freeflight rubber powered 20 yrs ago(very little)Started back up building models as way to keep hands busy.Stated w revelle plastic kit of 1903 Wright Flyer 18in ws,moved up to Guillows stick and tissue 24in ws.I am now almost finished w the Dare 1909 Military Flyer 40in ws Paul Trittle design ( something about the early aircraft that I find......?)I am at a point where need to put together a power set-up.I understand that the power sys recommended in kit instructions is a little dated,and and I would like to update it.This is the area I need some help.The sys recommended consists of 2 MPI 5.9:1 geared motors a 5 amp B.E.C. and 8 cell 280 mah batt.This set-up is brushed,want to use brushless.I've been looking around and I think I can use a pair of Turnigy 1230 w/mini gearbox sys???The numbers are very similar.Trying to be as economical as possible(unemployed,no benifits)Would these motors be a suitable substitution?Also will need some info on how to wire this up; 2 motors,counter rotating props,2 ESCs I understand one for each motor is needed.Generally speaking when it comes to things elec my brain cells take a vacation.If someone could take me by the hand on this it would be greatley appreciated.
A number of brushless motors are available in this size, such as the $$$$ Hacker motors. Along with this is www.motocalc.com, free for 30 days, then $39. Motocalc allows you to feed in your model wingspan, area, weight, and select an appropriate power system. Methinks you'd be looking at the Hacker 05 or 10 sized motors, or similar in other mfg's.

Here's info on those Hacker motors, this size is around $30 or so for the motor.

https://www.aero-model.com/8_63/Moto...05-Series.html

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Old 04-08-2013, 07:24 PM   #6
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motocalc.....WOW.Suggests 560 different power set ups gonna take some time to "window shop" all that
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:01 PM   #7
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http://www.2dogrc.com/brushless-moto...sc&order=price

Any of the top 3 would outperform the GWS brushed system and all weigh less.

Check which uses the prop dia you want...

They discontinued the 15 gram motors I got.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:48 PM   #8
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just checked my clearances with rudder rigging in place don't think props can be much more than 4-5 in in lenght total,maybe 6-7 if I reconfigure rudder rigging
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:07 PM   #9
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You can always out a shorter prop on that what the motor is rated for....

But they also have some micro brushless motors. Lighter, lower power... rated for smaller props

A couple have built-in ESCs.
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:07 PM   #10
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Wanted to try and get this thing flying for $50 or less or as close to it as possible.If not then this aircraft will become a ceiling hanger.The extremely large choice of motors just confuses me even more
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:19 PM   #11
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Two ESCs and 2 tiny motors... and cheap.

That limits the choices a bit.

going by your prop size limit...

http://www.nitroplanes.com/88e-mm201...or-2100kv.html

http://www.nitroplanes.com/07e21-proton-6a.html

Power rating is still more than the little GWS brushed + gearbox

I have never tried these...

Comparing with Hobby King's international warehouse their shipping will have to be considered. Shipping from Hong Kong could be more than the motors + ESC.

Wherever you shop for stuff this small and inexpensive; shipping will be a significant part of the cost.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:10 PM   #12
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found these motors for $12 bucks each,well within the budget.combined all 4 items and shipping comes to about $12.Trouble is "out of stock".Tiny.Reconfigured rudder rigging,now have clearance for up to 8.5 prop.More choices....ohhh my head is spinng
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:43 PM   #13
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ran the moto calc app again w/a few prop changes and right up top w/ rating of 1.000 was RC timer 2212-10 found them on e-bay $5 ea ordered 2.shipping was $14 still not a bad deal.2 of the proton 6a esc's a couple diodes and a batt pak and still under budget...whew!!!
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