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Old 08-24-2013, 02:05 AM   #1
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Default how fast can i push a kit built greatplanes 300s extra

title says it all...i built a great planes 300s extra kit many years ago.shes a real solid kit that i built before i could fly such a bird. i origanly used cheap motorand esc'.... i swapped out the unused hk motor and esc for a power 60 eflite,100amp ice castlecreation esc,and 7cells 4000mah 40c zippies.15x10apc prop.

i flew this bird for the first time last weekend and theres a certain wow factor from the gang at the club as this bird may weigh more than it should but she's really very powerful and very fast.the gang was saying how fast while i was flying and one pilot thought i might have approach the 100 mark on several fly bys and i didn't hardly ever use full throttle, so fast i am concerned for flutter and really don't know what speed is ok for this airframe.

so this is my question,can this bird fly 100mph if supplied enough power without flutter destroying it. i plan on throttle management to get 8+min flight with screaming fast verticals to dizzying heights and also am taking the radar gun to the field to hopefully get a reading on a straight level flyby at wot.

again,i don't want to wreck this plane as its been around along time and needs to get some air time.when ever i attach control surfaces i use extra ca hings and make the gap tight. but if she can do the speed...i'll love ti!!!

thanks for any info regarding flutter of surfaces. note:the only plane i have that had flutter once was the 72"ws skimmer sail plane over powered and flown wot....i cut throttle and the noise stopped. heres a picture of the extra.


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narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 08-24-2013, 02:29 AM   #2
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I dont see why it wont do 125 MPH Just make sure you got some extra magnets on the canopy so it does not come off, and I would put some clear packing tape on the hinges to seal them up, Just my 2 cents worth Take care and have fun, Chellie

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Old 08-24-2013, 03:45 AM   #3
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Your speed limits are power and flutter.
sometimes flutter develops and becomes destructive before it makes any noise.

You can combat the control surface flutter through various means... better hinges, sealed hinge line and slop-free linkages. will all help.

At some speed you will start fluttering the tailplanes. If you figure out how to stiffen them enough to prevent that the next thing that will fail is the wings.

All of the work to prevent flutter will add weight which means it takes even more power to achieve your high speed... Adding more power generally means adding more weight also. There is a point where you add so much power that you are slowing the plane down due to the excess weight, then to start going faster again you won't need the wings.
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Old 08-24-2013, 04:02 AM   #4
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thanks for the reply chellie,the canopy is screwed down. the batteries are bottom fed into a battery box built on an angle where the tank would have been.the battery box has a bolt on hatch with an air scoop built into it. i also use an arming switch/plug to make the final connection of batteries easy. she really did fly great and a bud of mine who built the same plane and has his glow powered was shocked at how much faster my plane was than his. ...i was totally shocked as i fly the exact setup on 6cells on my hog bipe ...it flys so much slower! able to get vertical on the hog,but nothing like what the extra is doing hope to get a radar reading Saturday if a club member can point it well enough to make it work. plus i have to do a closer fly by than most of the old gang would like to see..

last week i was able to see my orientation easy enough ,but my friend standing next to me was blind to it since the top and bottom of the wing was very similar[only diff was black on the top]. heres a picture of broad stripes i put on to help tell top from bottom..lol.


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Old 08-24-2013, 10:50 AM   #5
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Flutter and such issues aside i don't think you will crack 100mph in level flight with that set up because you are lacking in pitch speed for those sort of speeds. The prop RPM and the pitch will see the model topping out in the around 80mph give or take. Maybe a bit more in a steep dive.

To get much faster needs more pitch and/or more RPM. Much more RPM can really only be achieved with higher kv motor or higher cell count battery. More pitch is easy by changing prop but you will end up with a prop that's stalled at lower speeds so might be a bit sluggish to get off the ground.
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Old 08-24-2013, 11:01 AM   #6
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FWIW you can estimate pitch speed by the following formula:

Speed in mph = 0.003 x Series LiPo Cells x Motor Kv x Prop Pitch (inches)

So

0.003 x 7 x 400 x 10 = 84mph

A very 'clean' streamline model may slightly exceed this speed, a typical sports model will probably be a bit below it. A draggy model could be way below it.

Before anyone shoots this down... it's only intended as a ballpark 'upper bound' estimate of what level flying speed is possible.
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Old 08-24-2013, 11:40 AM   #7
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So ... that's a 7-cell lipo on a 400kV motor???

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Old 08-24-2013, 11:55 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by mclarkson View Post
So ... that's a 7-cell lipo on a 400kV motor???
Yeah, the Power 60 is 400kv
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Old 08-24-2013, 01:12 PM   #9
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Its typical to fly at about 80% to 90% pitch speed in level flight.
Yes, some pylon racers or extremely clean designs can approach or slightly exceed pitch speed due to the airfoil of the prop.

If max level flight speed of even an extremely draggy model is less than 70% of pitch speed you are guaranteed to have the wrong prop and/or some other serious issue such as extreme overweight.
Or you might be flying an EDF model...
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Old 08-24-2013, 02:12 PM   #10
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There is an approx 0.8 'fudge factor' built into the calculation compared to theoretical no load RPM.
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Old 08-24-2013, 02:31 PM   #11
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i just hit the thanks button for all post here today. it's 8:15 am and winds are looking to be very favorable for todays flights which is good since the car is loaded and I'm ready to head out for a nice long day of flying. I'll get 3 flights on the extra and am bringing a radar gun with me,so i hope to post results.

i love flying edf stinger,and very fast park jet pusher prop style planes. i never thought the extra went 100 and figured 70+ and being a 62"ws extra may make 70mph look faster screaming by...,theres also the noise factor of an electric flying wot that gets most glow pilots saying "wow! shes fast"....

thanks again for the responses. i figure since my control surfaces are hinged with no gaps and no slop I'll give her a go as is wot test. but to be sure there will be no wot turns radically flown. i really do want to get this old bird some air time. if i do suspect anything i will tape the control surfaces with hing tape later[if there is a later].



this subject of fluttering surfaces isn't talked about much and can benefit many pilots new and old.

a question to be asked is....when did you ever experience flutter and what was the results? what was the cure for that instance it happened? maybe a new thread.

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 08-24-2013, 02:36 PM   #12
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Your Question was, can your plane fly at 100 MPH if enough power was given to it, Yes,it will take it, But not with a 7 cell lipo, you will need to use a 8 cell lipo. to see 100 MPH

http://www.pgam.ca/airspeed.htm

7 cell lipo about 25 volts x 400kv = 10000 rpm +10 pitch prop = about 97 MPH
8 cell lipo about 29 volts x 400kv =11600 rpm + 10 pitch prop = about 109 MPH

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Old 08-24-2013, 04:56 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
7 cell lipo about 25 volts x 400kv = 10000 rpm +10 pitch prop = about 97 MPH
8 cell lipo about 29 volts x 400kv =11600 rpm + 10 pitch prop = about 109 MPH
Those are no load RPM, i.e. motor running with no prop. When the motor has a prop attached and is making thrust you will never see those revs. The rule of thumb i posted factors in that revs will only be 80-85% of the no load RPM... which is about in the ballpark.
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Old 08-25-2013, 03:14 AM   #14
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interesting calculations....so what is the final equation for figuring out how fast a plane can fly using measurements of motor size- power/kv/prop size and pitch .

i flew the extra 3 times today but it was windy 10 to 15mph slightly cross ,mostly down the run way from one corner to the other. made for easier landings. i didn't even bother trying the radar gun on the extra as it would have been very big difference flying speeds in both directions ,then averaging out the readings.

i was clocking a fellow pilot at 66mph and I'm sure the extra is faster than that ,in fact at wot it's still get tons of compliments from the pit areas. the glow/gasser pilots are envious of the instant power electrics give.

Sunday is to be even better...but the extra is staying home so the pig bipe gets some sunlight and airtime..lol, the 4cell packs i use to make up 7cells for the extra will fly the edge 540t 3 times. plenty to look forward to if weather goes as predicted. should be way more relaxing then todays flights on the extra300s.

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Old 08-25-2013, 03:49 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by tobydogs View Post

a question to be asked is....when did you ever experience flutter and what was the results? what was the cure for that instance it happened? maybe a new thread.
Yeah, I experienced flutter on one of my 1200 watt scratchbuild models several years ago. It was the elevator, and soon's I heard it, killed motor power. The model landed safely. The result of the flutter was obvious, the elevator horn attachment broke loose inside the elevator. The elevator was uncovered, and really beefed up. Since then, no more problems.

As others have indicated, as often as not, when you hear flutter, its to late to save the model. We had a very nice Bipe go in last year at full power, 20 feet off the ground. It suddenly dove straight in at full power. Even the brand new DLE 30 gasser was in a half dozen pieces.

We found the horizontal stab about 150 feet away from the crash site, before the crash. Flutter tore it completely off the model.

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Old 08-25-2013, 03:50 AM   #16
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Calculations will only get you close; you'll have to test in the real world to be sure.

The pitch tells you - in theory - how far forward the prop pulls the plane with every revolution. So a prop with an 8" pitch would move 8" forward for every revolution. Then you just multiply by the RPM. If you're turning 10,000 RPM, then you're moving forward 8", 10,000 times per minute. Or 80,000 inches per minute. Which would be about 75 MPH.

But all of that is in THEORY. In reality, your motor might not be turning 10,000 RPM. Your plane generates drag. The prop is not 100% efficient. Etc. Etc.

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Old 08-25-2013, 06:53 AM   #17
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Set some type of sound recorder on the runway and fly over it

http://www.sprut.de/electronic/soft/scope.htm

The closer to being directly over the recorder and the lower you go the more accurate it is... but if you pass within about 30 ft with 300+ ft before and after its going to be pretty good.
If its off due to not passing close enough it will give a low reading.
Takes a little practice figuring which points to mark on the graphic of the sound for the comparison. You get more error from that than from anything else.
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Old 08-25-2013, 07:37 PM   #18
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If you care to go to that extreme; and able to translate German........

"Set some type of sound recorder on the runway and fly over it"

http://www.sprut.de/electronic/soft/scope.htm


Might as well check for "flutter" before you get off the ground....:

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/shortt.html

http://www.sciencebuddies.org/scienc...nnel-toc.shtml

Just about as amusing and cost effective..........!

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Old 08-26-2013, 01:30 AM   #19
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And you can check the actual speed with a Doppler Application, if you have a smart phone. HK sells one, but there's other free ones. No idea if any of them are accurate.

http://hkdoppler.com/
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Old 08-26-2013, 01:53 AM   #20
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i do have the Doppler on the droid...but i thought it only works on pusher props that offer considerably more noise at the decibel level Doppler requires. or maybe thats the glow planes it won't do because of motor noise interfering with the reading.

if the Doppler does work on all electrics...i have some serious dopplering to do. for the larger birds I'll stick with the radar gun. i set it up on a tripod for real fast flybys with parkjets but it didn't work...it a point and follow type gun to get any speed recorded.


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Old 08-26-2013, 02:55 AM   #21
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You may be surprised how little noise is need for the Doppler to work... Depends on which application you have.

Since you have the ap... try it.
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Old 08-26-2013, 03:35 AM   #22
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Stu don't forget if you get a speed of 100 mph or better to post the results whether it is the radar gun or Doppler in this thread. We can give you the speed demon award.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26852
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Old 08-26-2013, 05:31 PM   #23
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Seriously doubt there's an accurate (stand alone) android phone (ipod) Doppler radar application available that can track, measure and display the air speed of a 55 to 58" wing span craft.......way to many physical variables to overcome just in the ability to keep the device on target and syncronized.........even hand held or tripod mounted sports speed guns (which I've used for tracking pitchers and 1/4 mile track speeds) can be touchy given climate and environmental conditions.

I have used both of these with some success.....relatively inexpensive and not as accurate as what law enforcment uses (which does not always hold up in court either)..........:

http://www.opticsplanet.com/sports-r...radar-gun.html

http://www.opticsplanet.com/sports-r...un-sr3500.html

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Old 08-26-2013, 09:40 PM   #24
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The Doppler applications use SOUND, not radar.
No aiming. The sound is produced by the aircraft flying by.

They work very well too.

Accuracy can be affected by altering throttle during the flyby or by excess background noise. The program will try to find the sound that is changing in a pattern that indicates something making an approach then going away, but you can get readings from some music due to the tone change pattern.
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:46 PM   #25
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In laymen's terms:

"Doppler" radar uses the Doppler "effect", to measure velocity.....by bouncing a microwave, electromagnetic or other high frequency wave of energy (beam) off of the object and measuring the time it takes to return to the source and "frequency changes" relative to the "radar signal", thus the Doppler "effect".............If one intends to toss out applications, terminology and science facts, one should have at least more than a general basic "Wiki" understanding and personal experience with the application......there-by providing more than a conversational "how it's done or how to do"......suggestion!

An interesting side note related to using sound waves or "pulse" doppler to measure velocity without also the use of another median (FMCW radar", "controlled" environments provide the best results for small, close range targeting.........

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